those ducs are too fast - weight rule changed in AMA

[Tpoppa]

Really, watching him power past 2-3 bikes in a straight line. I guess there was no power advantage. If it is HP based then why can't a stock 750 run? They are 120-130 HP.

IDK, there were 4 equally prepared Buells that ran that year. Only 1 rider was competitive. If they swept the podiums I would agree that there was advantage.

V2s and I4s have different power delivery = advantages for each on certain tracks = more interesting racing.

Re: GSXR750 not sure. I doubt Suzuki would want to race it since the 600 is their top seller and they want to showcase it. But within the same HP and weight limits, I wouldn't have any issue with it.

[blue03636]

I love having all the different bikes out there but they don't always know how to limit them to make the racing close. The rules on a new bike with a different motor are always up in the air.

[Tpoppa]

I love having all the different bikes out there but they don't always know how to limit them to make the racing close.

Probably true. Once the season starts, changing the weight limits is the only change that is fair to the race teams. It's easy and cheap, and only needs a little suspension tuning to compensate.

Any changes to intake, exhaust, or engine internals would take too much time, R&D, and $$$. Some teams just don't have the resources.

[cOoTeR]

So what's in store for when Honda brings in the v-4?

[Uncle Punk]

How did this thread get back on topic with real posts? I think I want out if you fellows are going to talk all smart and shit.

[redkow97]

if the bike meets hp and weight regs, I don't see why people are getting butthurt. Majority of racing comes down to the rider talent anyways

This is less and less true as you get into the pro ranks. At the club level, yeah, it's 90% rider and 10% bike, but at the professional level, the top HALF of the field are all capable of turning laps within a second of each other if they were all on the same bike.

If I were DiSalvo or Holden, I would be rather pissed off by the implication that it must be the bike that's allowing them to be so competitive.

Like TPoppa pointed out with the Buells, it's not EVERY Duc that is crushing the field. I will admit that I was surprised to see PJ Jacobsen as high up on the field as he ended up (4th or 5th?), but I think it's too soon to be adding weight to the bike. Herrin and Eslick seemed to keep up just fine; the Ducs just managed tire wear a lot better.

[Moto-Brian]

This is less and less true as you get into the pro ranks. At the club level, yeah, it's 90% rider and 10% bike, but at the professional level, the top HALF of the field are all capable of turning laps within a second of each other if they were all on the same bike.

If I were DiSalvo or Holden, I would be rather pissed off by the implication that it must be the bike that's allowing them to be so competitive.

Like TPoppa pointed out with the Buells, it's not EVERY Duc that is crushing the field. I will admit that I was surprised to see PJ Jacobsen as high up on the field as he ended up (4th or 5th?), but I think it's too soon to be adding weight to the bike. Herrin and Eslick seemed to keep up just fine; the Ducs just managed tire wear a lot better.

Actually it is. Look at the trap speeds and you will see the Ducs have an advantage. Plus, the power difference off the corner, etc. When you have Jake coming from 12th to first, you have issues. Jake's a kick ass rider, but Eslick couldn't have done that...

PJ, Holden and DiSalvo are/were crushing it. Same with Daytona and that is VERY dependant on the draft...

If there are privateers in the back of the pack on Ducs and not doing great, then the same can be said of the I4s. Is the Suzuki and R6 really that good if only 4-5 guys are up front on the model? That's not a good argument. The pros are compared to the pros and the privateers are compared to nothing, really. Not a slam, but we are talking Jason and Jake vs say, Eslick and Herrin and adding in PJ vs say, Westby and West, etc... We aren't going to compare Joe Average vs Herrin...

The rules are simple. Keep it level as much as possible and do not let the bike weigh in on the results. As mentioned, it should be rider and not the bike. God Bless the AMA for adding different brands, but if you have something dominating, it alienates the other brands and the fans that support them. The Buell is a great case in point. As mentioned, they were blasting past bikes on the straights. The handling was off vs the I4s and therefore the difference wasn't as much. Here, the Ducs handle well and have more power. Plus, the power is different and it effects how the racing goes. The rule change only levels stuff. It isn't Duc vs the Big 4 - it is AMA making sure the racing is as level as they can make it. People bitch for sure and I am sure that the top teams were complaining, but you can also see why...

I think it is great and I think it will show that Jason and Holden are great riders deserving of better rides. They will still win and charge to the front - even with the changes. That's what it is about - the rider...

[bertman85]

I agree with the 848 evo looking really fast in the first three races. But has anyone stepped back and considered that maybe jason DiSalvo has 9 year years experience, and has finally found a package/sponsor that he can win with?

Rider ability is 95% of how these guys win. Not every team is going to get their bike dialed in for every race weekend. I am a zuki guy through and through but here is an example: Josh Hayes, probable the nicest and most talented SBK racer that i have met currently racing AMA. He is lap leader in almost every race on his in on a cross plane r1 that uses no traction control electronics. There is probably more money in one rockstar makita suzuki 1k than 1.5 of his bikes. Im not taking anything away from tommy gun but when he or blake win it is by technology and when Hayes's tires are smoked.

I guess my babbling concluded, its the rider people. Josh Hayes would beat 1/4 of the SBK field on a yzf-r6.

[Moto-Brian]

I agree with the 848 evo looking really fast in the first three races. But has anyone stepped back and considered that maybe jason DiSalvo has 9 year years experience, and has finally found a package/sponsor that he can win with?

Rider ability is 95% of how these guys win. Not every team is going to get their bike dialed in for every race weekend. I am a zuki guy through and through but here is an example: Josh Hayes, probable the nicest and most talented SBK racer that i have met currently racing AMA. He is lap leader in almost every race on his in on a cross plane r1 that uses no traction control electronics. There is probably more money in one rockstar makita suzuki 1k than 1.5 of his bikes. Im not taking anything away from tommy gun but when he or blake win it is by technology and when Hayes's tires are smoked.

I guess my babbling concluded, its the rider people. Josh Hayes would beat 1/4 of the SBK field on a yzf-r6.

Not so at all. All those guys are so close on ability that it isn't a good argument. Jason is an awesome racer for sure. But to say he is that much faster than the field is silly. Did he just decide after all these years to drop the hammer? Or, is he still kick ass and is just in a slightly better bike? I'd say the latter.

As for Hayes, he wouldn't beat the top ten in the SB class in an R6. Look at the times. Ain't gonna happen.

I'd also wager that Herrin, Eslick and DiSalvo for example would be VERY close in times on all the same bike.

Look at the fact that the talent pool is pretty damn deep. Chaz Davies was a top 5 guy here against the same pool and he is top 3 in WSS. That says something.

Te base of the argument needs to be the bike and not the rider. If the bike has an unfair advantage, it needs to be equalled out. Equal then leaves it to rider ability. As I mentioned, if Jason still wins on equal footing, it's him and not the bike. Make sense?

[Moto-Brian]

Also, Bert - if you don't think the graves bikes aren't trick, you need to look closer. Oh yeah, they all use similar electronics. The R1 is a turd unless built and tuned to the extreme and the graves boys have it dialed. The Suzuki is for sure trick also, but between it and Yamaha, they are close in terms of R&D and development.

Not discounting josh one bit. But the top 5 guys are really good. My feelings are that Tommy and josh are class leaders based on seat time and overall experience. Guys like Blake will get better and when you weigh the fact he has less time and less knowledge, he's actually a bit better.

[bertman85]

I never said said the yammi's weren't chuck full of technology. I said that hayes doesnt use it. And for the 1/4 of the field, it was the lower quater of the field. im not an idiot, the top 5-10 riders every race qualify within 1 second of each other.

If tommy went to graves and josh went rockstar, given they both has time to learn the new bikes, the stats would remain relitively the same. Jake Zempke raced a 1k zuki last year and swept daytona, this year in DSB on a r6 he set pole. Telling you, its the riders and how comfortable they feel on a track.

Edited May 25, 2011 by bertman85

[4DAIVI PAI2K5]

Telling you, its the riders and how comfortable they feel on a track.

I think your telling the wrong person here bud.

[natedogg624]

how do you know hayes doesn't use the tech? last i saw there sure were a lot of multi-colored buttons on the left bar of the #1 bike...

[ducati guy]

I think your telling the wrong person here bud.

Lol was thinking the same thing:bow:

[bertman85]

A group of us were talking with him in the pits last year and he was saying he doesn't use the electronic traction controll. Not trying to tell anybody their buisiness. If we all really knew what we were talking about, we would be out racing against these guys and not debating them on a forum.

[redkow97]

^ I have heard that said about Hayes before as well. By several broadcasters and journalists.

I think Josh commented on it himself when Rossi was hurt last year, and there was a rumor circulating that his name was being thrown around as a possible temporary replacement rider. The GP bikes have TONS of electronics, and he would have been forced to learn them damn quick. I believe he commented on that, even tho nothing ever came of that rumor.

[TSB67]

Last I heard Hayes uses zero traction control. Somebody on the broadcast credited Tommy's improvement in race 2 to overnight electronics tuning. Doesn't necessarily make him faster, but sure seems to save the tire.

[Moto-Brian]

Guys, the bikes all have traction control. Some racers use it a little, some a little more and some not at all or at the minimal they can set it.

Watch MotoGP. Some guys you can hear the TC kicking in more than others. Just because one rider uses it and another doesn't isn't something to use to say one is better than another. It's riding style and what they prefer. Watch Tommy. He's smoother than most. Josh is more of a loose rider. Doesn't make one better than another.

[Moto-Brian]

A group of us were talking with him in the pits last year and he was saying he doesn't use the electronic traction controll. Not trying to tell anybody their buisiness. If we all really knew what we were talking about, we would be out racing against these guys and not debating them on a forum.

Some of us might be just a tad above arm chair quarter back when talking on this topic. Also, some of may possibly know a tid bit here and there about what goes on.

[bertman85]

Some of us might be just a tad above arm chair quarter back when talking on this topic. Also, some of may possibly know a tid bit here and there about what goes on.

I follow ama road racing from start to finish even in the off season. Looks like u have some sort of race experience and I obviously respect that, but sense the spies/mladin era the ama bikes have been strictly regulated to power/weight and to say that rider ability has nothing to do with it is a little unbelievable. Not gonna argue with pple on this anymore. Was my day off yesterday and saw that there were still a couple people other than me that actually still care about ama road racing. Thought I would chime in.

[Moto-Brian]

I follow ama road racing from start to finish even in the off season. Looks like u have some sort of race experience and I obviously respect that, but sense the spies/mladin era the ama bikes have been strictly regulated to power/weight and to say that rider ability has nothing to do with it is a little unbelievable. Not gonna argue with pple on this anymore. Was my day off yesterday and saw that there were still a couple people other than me that actually still care about ama road racing. Thought I would chime in.

Not sure where anyone has stated that the rider isn't the biggest factor in this sport??

However, your comments are read to sound as if Josh is better than Tommy because he doesn't use the traction control. That's silly. They are both great riders and in fact, I would wager that they are as close as two top riders can be. BUT, realize that one rider may be better due to the way they understand set-up, the way they race the bike, the way they manage the race they run, etc. There are factors that make a rider better than the others he faces. It's like saying that Jorge and Stoner are better than Rossi. I'd disagree with that as I feel that Rossi is a great set-up guy and obviously has the accomplishments that over time will prove to be unable to be either equalled or exceeded. But, if you look at race wins in the last two seasons, he doesn't look good on paper.

Get my point? Josh is awesome. Tommy is awesome. They are the head of the series with Blake a close third. But, considering that Blake is always a factor and the fact that he is younger with less seat time, my feelings are the same when thinking Mladin and Spies. Ben was great and we saw something and witnessed something that is uncommon. He came in, learned from one of the best and beat him. He then excelled beyond what Mladin has accomplished and that's amazing in the short period of time.

Tommy and Josh are veterans that are not going to get a MotoGP ride. They are too old and honestly, not as good as they could be or should be. That's not a slam, but if you think Josh could beat Spies head to head, I would take that bet and start cashing checks...

It is the rider and to the tune of almost 90% in my opinion. I have seen riders that can win on piles of shit bikes and when they actually get a great bike, they actually go slower. They are not used to stuff working and ride it so loose they cannot go fast on something well setup. That's ability working for and against.

Tommy and Josh are awesome, they are winners and they both are probably the fastest SB racers here in the States. But, just don't confuse using traction control and on the Yosh bike as being below the skill level of a guy on a Graves R1.

That Graves bike is technologically advanced and moreso than I think you realize. They have some really trick bits on it and some unobtainium pieces. The rules are bullocks in AMA - it should be like WSBK and allow the factories to really advance the machines and technology. But, they do not. Under the current rules package though, there are still plenty of cool pieces that get allowed and developed by the teams. Tommy would go as fast as he has on the R1 if he had the seat time Josh has on it and Josh the same if on the Yosh bikes... It's more about the teams when it comes to the bikes than it is on the rider riding them. The rider is going to excel on whatever top shelf team they ride for. Some teams do not prep and develop as well as others. Love Jordan and have a good buddy that works on the team, but I honestly think that they are a step behind the Yosh guys and it shows. BBoz would do better on a Yosh bike than the Jordan bike. That's the team and the tools they have available...

Graves and Yosh are pretty equal...

Anyways, you are saying what we are all saying. You just have thrown out a few things like Josh not riding the TC and Tommy using it and saying or hinting that makes Josh better. You also hint at stating the Graves team is not as good as the Yosh team and that's not true at all... Just pointing out what I am referring to in my comments...

Obviously, it is all an opinion and simply that...