NESBA - 9-24-11/9-25-11 - BeaveRun

[Moto-Brian]

I haven’t posted on this forum much so I guess I'm not used to people talking out their ass, so you'll have to excuse me if I seem surprised by your completely inaccurate comment when I clearly stated I like all orgs, all have their ups and downs.

But you seem to have a definite prejudice against NESBA, maybe you should look deep and work on your "problem".

See you at the track BRIAN

Talking out my ass? Really? You might wanna check some facts before you go talking all tough guy...

No prejudice, but again... IF YOU READ WHAT I STATED - I said that we need to take a guy that is new and compare prices from both. Your prices are fine - if you do as many events as you did. That's cool and that's awesome, but the reality is that a majority of track day riders do NOT do as many as you do each year.

The fact is that we are talking about two things here. One, this is a first time rider at a track day. Second, he doesn't get the discount as he hasn't done as many as you have.

Thus, no hatred, no biased and no anything. Just facts. Classroom in my opinion no matter what org you run with - STT, Mid-Ohio, Moto Series, etc is a valuable thing to look for when first time out.

I'm not an STT fanboy. I directed a few years and even help time to time, but in reality, I think what Moto Series is doing has some serious merit. They do the track days prior to race days and attract a LOT of people in doing so. I like the formula and I like where they are trying to go.

Call that being a fan, I guess. Same could EASILY be said of a guy that does 12 plus events a year with the same org, no?

You are right about anyone can get a discount. I never said otherwise. But, you aren't getting a non membership and 30% plus off as a first time rider...

[redkow97]

Wow... Really... You honestly believe that a good coach is a faster coach? That lap times are the way to recognize quality coaching.

dude. did you even read my post? I explicitly said that being faster doesn't necessarily make them better coaches.

You're the one listing guys who can turn :58's. How many of those guys coach for Moto Series btw?

I know of at least 2 NESBA control riders who can lap in the :58's at BeaveRun. There may or may not be others. I don't go around inspecting their lap timers, but Brad races, so his fast laps are posted, and I have watched Buck ride with Brad and keep pace.

[redkow97]

sure - let's look at prices.

NESBA has a $25 membership fee that eliminates any future "non member" fees.

Both orgs have a "late registration" fee of $20 or $25. I have paid it THIS SEASON with both orgs. that's a wash.

Moto Series charges $150/day for BeaveRun, yes? NESBA charges $165 or $170/day for BeaveRun.

Moto Series charges $10 per person at the gate. NESBA covers gate fees for riders, and spectators at all events.

Unless you're doing 2 total trackdays for the year, the 'free' gate fees actually put you ahead pretty quickly.

furthermore, NESBA offers back-to-back trackdays (Saturday/Sunday) with a $10 or $15 discount on the second day. Moto Series doesn't have that option, and it brings down the cost per day a bit more.

when all is said and done, the cost is basically a wash. NESBA is probably slightly more expensive, but rides at a lot more tracks.

None of that is a slam on Moto Series. I think NESBA does some things better, and I think Moto Series does some things better.

[APCh8r]

Alright guys, lets get over this which org is better stuff....lets focus on the original topic and what is most important....getting more people to the track to enjoy the experience. Best of luck with the track day and when you get the chance experience all the different events and track orgs to form your own opinion. Each org offers something different.

[redkow97]

But, if it is solely lap times you base who you want coaching you, call Moto Series and ask for Justin Neyra to help you. He went faster than any of the WERA guys did at their last event and easily would have been into 57s had we had better and new tires... .

I just checked, and unless i am missing one of Jusin's races, that's flatly incorrect.

Sam Gaige turned a :58.101

Justin Neyra turned a :58.294

[fitz13]

Talking out my ass? Really? You might wanna check some facts before you go talking all tough guy...

No prejudice, but again... IF YOU READ WHAT I STATED - I said that we need to take a guy that is new and compare prices from both. Your prices are fine - if you do as many events as you did. That's cool and that's awesome, but the reality is that a majority of track day riders do NOT do as many as you do each year.

The fact is that we are talking about two things here. One, this is a first time rider at a track day. Second, he doesn't get the discount as he hasn't done as many as you have.

Thus, no hatred, no biased and no anything. Just facts. Classroom in my opinion no matter what org you run with - STT, Mid-Ohio, Moto Series, etc is a valuable thing to look for when first time out.

I'm not an STT fanboy. I directed a few years and even help time to time, but in reality, I think what Moto Series is doing has some serious merit. They do the track days prior to race days and attract a LOT of people in doing so. I like the formula and I like where they are trying to go.

Call that being a fan, I guess. Same could EASILY be said of a guy that does 12 plus events a year with the same org, no?

You are right about anyone can get a discount. I never said otherwise. But, you aren't getting a non membership and 30% plus off as a first time rider...

Dude I know a troll when I see one, to think I used to read what you had to say and thought it had merit.

[Moto-Brian]

dude. did you even read my post? I explicitly said that being faster doesn't necessarily make them better coaches.

You're the one listing guys who can turn :58's. How many of those guys coach for Moto Series btw?

I know of at least 2 NESBA control riders who can lap in the :58's at BeaveRun. There may or may not be others. I don't go around inspecting their lap timers, but Brad races, so his fast laps are posted, and I have watched Buck ride with Brad and keep pace.

You didn't say it was all about the lap times, but you did bring it up as if it was a measuring stick.

Yes, Brad rides well enough at Beaver, but again... Not many can run into 57s. Brad runs a mid to high 58s which is baller fast and really cool. BUT, it means jack when it comes to instructing...

I know Jeff and Justin are there and will help people. I also know that Jeff will work a lot one on one with riders if they want it.

The point is real simple to end the bickering. You and Fitz are big promoters of NESBA and that's fine. BUT, there are a lot of guys on here that support and promote Moto Series. The thing is that it comes across as belittling Moto Series. The reality is that there are FAST guys running Moto Series. Fast guys and they are making the "regulars" faster also.

We got Farmer faster than he's ever been at Nelson. We've got guys like Pinson, Kelly, Neyra, Wrobel and others that are pretty freakin fast and choosing MS over other orgs for several reasons and the top reason is to have fun and race competitively.

NESBA is great. It really is. Again, it all seems to get lost and a few guys all of a sudden start to make me out to be an anti-NESBA guy. That's fine, but the way you guys are referring to MS, it comes across the same way.

Let's be done with it and agree that track time is better than no track time.

[Moto-Brian]

I just checked, and unless i am missing one of Jusin's races, that's flatly incorrect.

Sam Gaige turned a :58.101

Justin Neyra turned a :58.294

I stand corrected. You're such a dick at times... How's this... He went faster than everyone other than Sam. You want to get into a technical BS back and forth? Neyra, Wrobel and myself were on Moto 2 take offs from Dunlop. We were all "experimenting" with them to see how they worked. We used them for 3-4 races each and never put on anything fresh. Neyra's times were end of the day and on their 2nd runs on his 1000. They were spinning a ton.

Sam runs fresh tires and race fuel. Sammy is a bad ass Mother F'er for sure and a great friend. BUT, to discount what Justin did is crazy. Sammy can go faster if pushed for sure. He's proven that - especially at Beaver.

My point was that Moto Series isn't a pussy club and is getting better and faster riders - both expert and novice. Again, the fact that WERA regionals are taking a HUGE hit is evident. Guys are coming over to MS and having a great time. They are great peeps...

[Moto-Brian]

Dude I know a troll when I see one, to think I used to read what you had to say and thought it had merit.

A troll??? Really? OK...

Have a great time. I am sure you are a super hero at the track. Well, at least behind the keyboard.

Troll. That's a good one.

[fitz13]

A troll??? Really? OK...

Have a great time. I am sure you are a super hero at the track. Well, at least behind the keyboard.

Troll. That's a good one.

None of what you say makes any sense, try this, when you type, try thinking.

Oh and let's see if you can NOT have the last word, betcha can't do it

[redkow97]

I stand corrected. You're such a dick at times...

I pointed out that you made an incorrect assertion, therefore I'm a dick?

You were the one who started making chest-puffing statements about how Justin is faster than all the WERA riders were.

Pointing out that Sam was a tenth faster was hardly meant to belittle Justin. Far from it. I don't believe I've met him, but I'm sure Justin is a great dude. I know I've seen his trailer in the paddock many times.

As for "promoting NESBA and belittling Moto Series," THE OP STARTED THIS THREAD ABOUT ATTENDING NESBA DAY.

YOU were the one who came in here ripping on how expensive it was (and not unjustifiably so) and blowing the Moto Series trumpet.

I can't believe I'm saying this, but Nick was right a few pages ago - which org is "better" is an irrelevant question. The fact is that both put on good events. There are differences that need to be acknowledged so people don't go in with the wrong expectations, but both orgs deliver what they promise.

[fitz13]

As for "promoting NESBA and belittling Moto Series," THE OP STARTED THIS THREAD ABOUT ATTENDING NESBA DAY.

YOU were the one who came in here ripping on how expensive it was (and not unjustifiably so) and blowing the Moto Series trumpet.

For the record Todd from MS has helped me more times than I can count, Sammy also has spent a great deal of time with me to help me go faster.

Everyone I have met at MS has been great.

Chances are I have met BRAIN, it's a pitty he represents such a great club so poorly.

[APCh8r]

I can't believe I'm saying this, but Nick was right a few pages ago - which org is "better" is an irrelevant question.

Why do you say you can't believe it?

Edited September 15, 2011 by APCh8r

[Moto-Brian]

For the record Todd from MS has helped me more times than I can count, Sammy also has spent a great deal of time with me to help me go faster.

Everyone I have met at MS has been great.

Chances are I have met BRAIN, it's a pitty he represents such a great club so poorly.

I represent MS poorly? Are you kidding me? I've said nothing but good about them and the amount of pure fun I have had this season while running with them. I've promoted them ABOVE NESBA due to a few factors.

You and Red are twisting this shit around so much it is causing me to belly laugh.

I really don't care. Bottom line is that I've said it how many different times that ANY track day org is better than street. They all are good. They all have positives and negatives. But, you guys coming on here and saying BS like fast is an element of being a great coach and that NESBA is a ton cheaper is insane. Then, to turn this into a deal where you try and show I am acting poorly in regards to promoting MS.

Jesus. Can't win with you guys. Red runs casual events and is a known NESBA lover. I have no idea over your deal and really could care less. If Sammy has helped you, apparently, you race. Dunno.

In the end, I will let everyone here continue on. I'm out. You're right - I couldn't sit back and not say one more thing. I like how you provoked it with your comment, but hey... I'm the bad guy here so, it'll surely be my fault.

OP? Do what you feel is best. Ever need any help, give me a shout.

[madcat6183]

OP? Do what you feel is best. Ever need any help, give me a shout.

For reference I know this is good guy to hookup with at the track. Dubguy got a tow at Mid O (Not an STT or Moto Series event for the record so no comments about that needed), this season and shaved like 6 seconds I believe. I am still too slow to ask for a tow but hopefully next season will be able.

At Nelson he was more than willing to talk and offer us advice as well, even before he passed me during the race. Feedback from other racers is what is needed to make you better in that enviroment, and his is always spot on.

I've rode with MS, STT, Mid O, and some org that I believe isn't around anymore and liked them all. Never rode with NESBA, simply because it didnt/doesnt fit my schedule. Whatever you ride with enjoy it, track time is your time.

[redkow97]

, you guys coming on here and saying BS like fast is an element of being a great coach and that NESBA is a ton cheaper is insane.

I will reiterate: I explicitly said from the start that lap times do not make someone a good or bad coach. The only reason I brought up lap times to begin with is because I have been slightly surprised by the pace of some Moto Series coaches. I certainly don't know all of them, but I know most of the NESBA control riders, and pointed out that a "slow" NESBA CR does 1:03's at BeaveRun.

Nowhere did I say (and I don't believe Fitz said) that NESBA is "a ton cheaper."

I did post up a loose cost comparison and pointed out that NESBA's $25 membership fee, and $15 difference in event fees can be offset pretty quickly you bring anyone beyond yourself to the track.

As noted, these are DIFFERENCES between the clubs. if i roll up to BeaveRun alone, for a single event, then NESBA probably costs me $45 more than Moto Series.

If I do back-to-back days, and show up with my wife and a couple friends, then the NESBA event price goes down by a few bucks a day, and Moto Series inflates my costs by charging my guests gate fees that NESBA would cover. Suddenly the $25 membership had paid for itself. If that happens more than once, you come out $25 ahead.

I've ridden with both clubs this year and had a great time with both. My times weren't what I had hoped for at Nelson, but I certainly don't blame that on either org.

[Moto-Brian]

I will reiterate: I explicitly said from the start that lap times do not make someone a good or bad coach. The only reason I brought up lap times to begin with is because I have been slightly surprised by the pace of some Moto Series coaches. I certainly don't know all of them, but I know most of the NESBA control riders, and pointed out that a "slow" NESBA CR does 1:03's at BeaveRun.

Nowhere did I say (and I don't believe Fitz said) that NESBA is "a ton cheaper."

I did post up a loose cost comparison and pointed out that NESBA's $25 membership fee, and $15 difference in event fees can be offset pretty quickly you bring anyone beyond yourself to the track.

As noted, these are DIFFERENCES between the clubs. if i roll up to BeaveRun alone, for a single event, then NESBA probably costs me $45 more than Moto Series.

If I do back-to-back days, and show up with my wife and a couple friends, then the NESBA event price goes down by a few bucks a day, and Moto Series inflates my costs by charging my guests gate fees that NESBA would cover. Suddenly the $25 membership had paid for itself. If that happens more than once, you come out $25 ahead.

I've ridden with both clubs this year and had a great time with both. My times weren't what I had hoped for at Nelson, but I certainly don't blame that on either org.

Your quote:

"But I can confidently say that the NESBA coaches are faster. That doesn't necessarily make them better coaches, but the "slow" NESBA control riders are turning 1:03's at BeaveRun.

I don't know all the Moto Series coaches, but I don't believe you can say the same about their staff.

How much that matters for riders that are new to the track is up for debate. For the first day, it probably matters very little. For the second and beyond, I think it starts to matter quite a bit - especially for intermediate riders, and even advanced riders. I have learned quite a lot in "A" just by seeing where CR's continue to gap me during their play time."

You say it doesn't "necessarily make them better coaches". You then go on to say that "how much is matters is up for debate... I think it starts to matter quite a bit"

You were suggesting it matters and it is a measuring stick you use to justify NESBA has better coaches.

You can twist it and turn it, but the fact is that you used speed/lap times as a justification that NESBA coaches are better...

Some are, some aren't. My point is that your thought process is crazy and totally silly.

Nice sig, by the way...

[redkow97]

I said it was up for debate how much that matters for NEW RIDERS. Regardless, I will stand by the sentiment that the faster a given rider gets, the more their coach's speed matters.

at race pace, I am capable of 1:04's and 1:05's at BeaveRun. Hardly flying, but I don't get lapped either.

You may fundamentally disagree with me (which is fine, and we can leave it at this if that's the case), but I think I can learn more from someone who turns 1:00 laps than someone who turns 1:06 laps. I don't think that there's nothing to be learned from people who aren't as quick as me, nor do I think that makes them bad coaches; it just makes them less useful to faster riders.

I hope that it's crystal clear to everyone who has ever turned a wheel on any track that even the fastest guy out there has a lot to learn. In terms of BeaveRun, I am pretty sure Larry Pegram is in the :56's now.

and yeah, my sig is pretty baller. thanks.

Edited September 15, 2011 by redkow97

[blue03636]

It is really hard to judge the laptimes of most of the MS staff as probably half are on SV's and still run in the 1:05-1:06 range.

Most people that are going a good pace tend to not ask for help, if you are that is great and more should do it. Hell if I make the next nelsons round I may take Wrobel up on his offer to tow me around (I just hope he doesn't get bored).

[Moto-Brian]

It is really hard to judge the laptimes of most of the MS staff as probably half are on SV's and still run in the 1:05-1:06 range.

Most people that are going a good pace tend to not ask for help, if you are that is great and more should do it. Hell if I make the next nelsons round I may take Wrobel up on his offer to tow me around (I just hope he doesn't get bored).

Don't ask Jeff... He's too slow! You need to find someone running 3-4 seconds faster than Jeff so you can make double sure that you aren't running him over as you progress.

I know I never learned a thing from Pinson when we were running together even though I was running faster. God forbid that you slow your pace down and actually learn something. You need to be at full on race pace to learn a thing. Balls on fire!!!

I know I don't learn anything unless we are running 29s at Mid-Ohio...

[Moto-Brian]

Oh, by the way, anyone ever looked up the term "back pedaling"?

Just wonderin...

Oh, and Craig - if you ever need a tow, just ask. You know as well as anyone it doesn't matter about the speed as much as maybe picking up a few reference points and having someone watch you...

Now back to the sarcasm.

[blue03636]

Oh, and Craig - if you ever need a tow, just ask. You know as well as anyone it doesn't matter about the speed as much as maybe picking up a few reference points and having someone watch you...

Only if you can cut me 2 seconds.

I hope to make october, I may look you up.

[fitz13]

Oh, by the way, anyone ever looked up the term "back pedaling"?

Just wonderin...

Yeah good job on that by the way, instead of talking out your ass about things you know nothing about.

[Moto-Brian]

Only if you can cut me 2 seconds.

I hope to make october, I may look you up.

Easy. Look me up. I might come up Saturday anyways.

[Moto-Brian]

Yeah good job on that by the way, instead of talking out your ass about things you know nothing about.

You a funny man. You don't even know if you've met me and you think I'm talking about stuff I know nothing about. Shoot me a link of your MyLaps. That way we can see if YOU actually know what YOU'RE talking about and not whispering out YOUR ass.