Laser + boredom =

[kawi kid]

My mother in law has a laser engraver also.... I have all kinds of plans for my toys lol

[Simplysix]

I liked on American Guns when they engraved "good night" in Latin on that .50 cal

[Jst2fst]

I liked on American Guns when they engraved "good night" in Latin on that .50 cal

I think it was on the back of the bolt nice work btw

[flounder]

Barrel is not the firearm so he should be ok right?

I need to engrave my first and last name on one side of the top of the trigger housing and city, state on the other side.

If you're ding this for your Sbr, Don't!. There are depth requirements by atf and his laser engraver probably can't go that deep. I believe its 3/16"

[4DAIVI PAI2K5]

Boooo

[flounder]

Without looking up the laws i would assume that someone wouldnt mail/deliver me the whole firearm to have one piece done. I may me wrong but i would think that a specific part through the mail would be fine. If thats what your referring to. Also i cannot bring firearms into the my work so it would have to be torn down. Being im no expert gunsmth im not going to take down someone else gun anyway.

You can't receive anything with a serial. I.e. ar lower, receiver, ect. If you own an ar yourself then you can't receive a barrel under 16 inches or they could say you intended to make an sbr

[kawi kid]

Funny how that works huh?

[jporter12]

You can't receive anything with a serial. I.e. ar lower, receiver, ect. If you own an ar yourself then you can't receive a barrel under 16 inches or they could say you intended to make an sbr

Wow! So the atf is pretty "crazy" (Strict?) on their laws...

[flounder]

Wow! So the atf is pretty "crazy" (Strict?) on their laws...

No!

Why do you think you have to get a background check to get an AR lower?

[jporter12]

I was more referring to the engraving depth on the AR that parks was talking about, and some of the other stuff.

[cOoTeR]

I'm interested in this I have a xd .45. Are there any durability issues that might arise from doing this? If it is legal, how much you want to do it?

[Steve Butters]

You can't receive anything with a serial.

interesting.

last i checked its legal to send barrels through the mail, but my barrel has a serial on it? i shipped it to APW Cogan and they shipped it back and nobody said a thing, and they do that work for a living

[20thGix]

So say i was to buy an AR lower or something like that from say 4DAIVI PAI2K5 and did want to drive to where ever the hell he lives. It would be illegal to have him ship it to me even though its a person to person sale. Not buisness to customer sale. Or is it a mail thing?

flounder- 3/16 sounds deep for stamping/engraving. Maybe you mean 3/16 tall lettering?

[Steve Butters]

So say i was to buy an AR lower or something like that from say 4DAIVI PAI2K5 and did want to drive to where ever the hell he lives. It would be illegal to have him ship it to me even though its a person to person sale. Not buisness to customer sale. Or is it a mail thing?

flounder- 3/16 sounds deep for stamping/engraving. Maybe you mean 3/16 tall lettering?

an AR lower is considered a "firearm"....if you bought an upper he could ship it to you, but not a lower...to ship the lower is the same as shipping a whole firearm (same goes for the frame of a handgun...you can send the slide, barrel, whatever...but not the frame) (FFL to FFL is the proper way to ship a firearm to another individual)....the only time you could ship a lower yourself is if you bought it new and were mailing it back in for warranty work and sending it to the manufacturer...and im not sure if they could send it back to you or if it would have to go to an FFL for you to pick up

also - the 3/16 he is talking about for an SBR is NFA stuff, its deep because its meant to be permanent, no etching it away lol

Edited January 4, 2012 by Steve Butters

[flounder]

interesting.

last i checked its legal to send barrels through the mail, but my barrel has a serial on it? i shipped it to APW Cogan and they shipped it back and nobody said a thing, and they do that work for a living

Barrels typically dont have serials, are you sure yours did? The nothing with a serial comment is generally the safety net for those that dont know.

Basically no Receivers, Lowers, Actions, etc. Whatever you want to call them.

[flounder]

FYI, I was way off on the marking depth, I got the .003 and the font size requirement confused and merged. See below.

Section 7.4 The identification of firearms.

7.4.1 Serial numbers. Each manufacturer of a firearm must legibly identify it by engraving, stamping (impressing), or otherwise conspicuously placing on the firearm’s frame or receiver an individual serial number not duplicating any serial number placed by the manufacturer on any other firearm.120 The requirement that the marking be “conspicuously” placed on the firearm means that the marking must be wholly unobstructed from plain view. For firearms manufactured on or after January 30, 2002, the serial number must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch and in a print size no smaller than 1/16 inch.

7.4.1.1 What is an acceptable serial number? Alpha characters (letters), for example a name,

are not acceptable as a serial number. A proper serial number may contain such characters or letters, but it must have at least one numeric character (number). ATF takes the view that marking “legibly” means using exclusively Roman letters (A, B, C, and so forth) and Arabic numerals (1, 2, 3, and so forth).121 Deviations from this requirement have been found to seriously impair ATF’s ability to trace firearms involved in crime.

7.4.2 Additional information. Certain additional information must also be conspicuously placed on the frame, receiver, or barrel of the firearm by engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), that is, they must be placed in such a manner that they are wholly unobstructed from plain view. For firearms manufactured on or after January 30, 2002, this information must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch.

The additional information includes:

(1) The model, if such designation has been made;

(2) The caliber or gauge;

(3) The manufacturer’s name (or recognized abbreviation); and

(4) The city and State (or recognized abbreviation) where the manufacturer maintains its place of business.122

7.4.3 Measuring the depth of markings. The depth of all markings is measured from the flat surface of the metal and not the peaks or ridges. The height of serial numbers is measured as the distance between the latitudinal ends of the character impression bottoms (bases).

[20thGix]

Did some digging on some regs. Here is what i found on shipping firearms:

(B7) May a nonlicensee ship a firearm

through the U.S. Postal Service?

A nonlicensee may not transfer a

firearm to a nonlicensed resident of

another State. A nonlicensee may

mail a shotgun or rifle to a resident of

his or her own State or to a licensee

in any State. The Postal Service recommends

that long guns be sent by

registered mail and that no marking of

any kind which would indicate the

nature of the contents be placed on

the outside of any parcel containing

firearms. Handguns are not mailable.

A common or contract carrier must be

used to ship a handgun.

[18 U.S.C. 1715, 922(a)(3), 922(a)(5) and

922 (a)(2)(A)]

(B8) May a nonlicensee ship a firearm

by common or contract carrier?

A nonlicensee may ship a firearm

by a common or contract carrier to a

resident of his or her own State or to

a licensee in any State. A common or

contract carrier must be used to ship

a handgun. In addition, Federal law

requires that the carrier be notified

that the shipment contains a firearm

and prohibits common or contract

carriers from requiring or causing any

label to be placed on any package

indicating that it contains a firearm.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(2)(A), 922(a) (3),

922(a)(5) and 922(e), 27 CFR 478.31 and

478.30]

I believe this applies also:

Identify Prohibited Persons

The Gun Control Act (GCA) makes it unlawful for certain categories of persons to ship, transport, receive, or possess firearms. 18 USC 922(g). Transfers of firearms to any such prohibited persons are also unlawful. 18 USC 922(d).

These categories include any person:

• Under indictment or information in any court for a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year;
  
• convicted of a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year;
  
• who is a fugitive from justice;
  
• who is an unlawful user of or addicted to any controlled substance;
  
• who has been adjudicated as a mental defective or has been committed to any mental institution;
  
• who is an illegal alien;
  
• who has been discharged from the military under dishonorable conditions;
  
• who has renounced his or her United States citizenship;
  
• who is subject to a court order restraining the person from harassing, stalking, or threatening an intimate partner or child of the intimate partner; or
  
• who has been convicted of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence (enacted by the Omnibus Consolidated Appropriations Act of 1997, Pub. L. No. 104-208, effective September 30, 1996). 18 USC 922(g) and (n).
  

The way i read it is that any person that is legally allowed to own a firearm my ship to another legal person in the ways described above.I think licensed people have different rules to follow. I can only read so much legal mumbo jumbo before it all starts to sound the same.

[flounder]

Did some digging on some regs. Here is what i found on shipping firearms:

(B7) May a nonlicensee ship a firearm

through the U.S. Postal Service?

A nonlicensee may not transfer a

firearm to a nonlicensed resident of

another State. A nonlicensee may

mail a shotgun or rifle to a resident of

his or her own State or to a licensee

in any State. The Postal Service recommends

that long guns be sent by

registered mail and that no marking of

any kind which would indicate the

nature of the contents be placed on

the outside of any parcel containing

firearms. Handguns are not mailable.

A common or contract carrier must be

used to ship a handgun.

[18 U.S.C. 1715, 922(a)(3), 922(a)(5) and

922 (a)(2)(A)]

(B8) May a nonlicensee ship a firearm

by common or contract carrier?

A nonlicensee may ship a firearm

by a common or contract carrier to a

resident of his or her own State or to

a licensee in any State. A common or

contract carrier must be used to ship

a handgun. In addition, Federal law

requires that the carrier be notified

that the shipment contains a firearm

and prohibits common or contract

carriers from requiring or causing any

label to be placed on any package

indicating that it contains a firearm.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(2)(A), 922(a) (3),

922(a)(5) and 922(e), 27 CFR 478.31 and

478.30]

I believe this applies also:

Identify Prohibited Persons

The Gun Control Act (GCA) makes it unlawful for certain categories of persons to ship, transport, receive, or possess firearms. 18 USC 922(g). Transfers of firearms to any such prohibited persons are also unlawful. 18 USC 922(d).

These categories include any person:

• Under indictment or information in any court for a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year;
  
• convicted of a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year;
  
• who is a fugitive from justice;
  
• who is an unlawful user of or addicted to any controlled substance;
  
• who has been adjudicated as a mental defective or has been committed to any mental institution;
  
• who is an illegal alien;
  
• who has been discharged from the military under dishonorable conditions;
  
• who has renounced his or her United States citizenship;
  
• who is subject to a court order restraining the person from harassing, stalking, or threatening an intimate partner or child of the intimate partner; or
  
• who has been convicted of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence (enacted by the Omnibus Consolidated Appropriations Act of 1997, Pub. L. No. 104-208, effective September 30, 1996). 18 USC 922(g) and (n).
  

The way i read it is that any person that is legally allowed to own a firearm my ship to another legal person in the ways described above.I think licensed people have different rules to follow. I can only read so much legal mumbo jumbo before it all starts to sound the same.

Good info but your missing some key points. You cant ship a firearm to a non FFL to have work performed. (aka open the box, use the firearm, across state lines, etc) Someone receiving a Firearm to perform work must have a valid FFL / SOT for the type of work they are doing and log those parts into inventory per BATFE. The infor you have above is strictly related to shipping requirements and has nothing to do with who/what the receiver is or is doing.

[20thGix]

Good info but your missing some key points. You cant ship a firearm to a non FFL to have work performed. (aka open the box, use the firearm, across state lines, etc) Someone receiving a Firearm to perform work must have a valid FFL / SOT for the type of work they are doing and log those parts into inventory per BATFE. The infor you have above is strictly related to shipping requirements and has nothing to do with who/what the receiver is or is doing.

Did abit more digging and everything you said seem spot on according to this:

I. GUNSMITHS

(I1) Is a license needed to engage

in the business of engraving, customizing,

refinishing or repairing

firearms?

Yes. A person conducting such activities

as a business is considered to

be a gunsmith within the definition of

a dealer. See Item 16, “Federal Excise

Tax” in the General Information

section of this publication.

But if you read the definition of Gunsmith you get this:

(d) Gunsmith. A person who devotes

time, attention, and labor to engaging

in such activity as a regular course of

trade or business with the principal objective

of livelihood and profit, but such a

term shall not include a person who

makes occasional repairs of firearms or

who occasionally fits special barrels,

stocks, or trigger mechanisms to firearms;

So would not being a "gunsmith" by definition not require me to deal with the whole FFL requirments.

[Steve Butters]

i still dont think you can....if it was that simple, why do people have to ship FFL to FFL when selling guns private party through armslist or something? or does that only apply to out-of-state shipping?

and flounder - bad pic but you get the idea....its on the slide too lol...i have it on all 3 pieces

i get what youre saying about a blanket statement though....just wasnt sure if you meant it literally or just as a guideline, thought i would check for my own future reference lol

Edited January 5, 2012 by Steve Butters

[scottb]

Do you think the "engraving" refers to the decorative scroll work, or just the "name and address on a lower?

[flounder]

i still dont think you can....if it was that simple, why do people have to ship FFL to FFL when selling guns private party through armslist or something? or does that only apply to out-of-state shipping?

and flounder - bad pic but you get the idea....its on the slide too lol...i have it on all 3 pieces

i get what youre saying about a blanket statement though....just wasnt sure if you meant it literally or just as a guideline, thought i would check for my own future reference lol

Yeah I forgot that some pistol barrels have a serial. I know there are some additional rules regarding pistols vs long guns. for example, Im pretty sure you can buy a long gun when you are 18 but cant buy a pistol until your 21.

[flounder]

Do you think the "engraving" refers to the decorative scroll work, or just the "name and address on a lower?

engraving anything is my understanding.

Not worth the risk to try and figure out what the regs mean. Just go with the black and white of what they say.

Edited January 5, 2012 by flounder

[flounder]

So would not being a "gunsmith" by definition not require me to deal with the whole FFL requirments.

I dont work for the BATFE nor do I ever want to have to deal with their interpretation vs someone else s interpretation of the laws because... they will win..

Its not worth the risk to try and "interpret" their laws. Do you really want to take the risk of getting something wrong for a few hundred dollars in possible income vs the 100,000's in fines and possible jail fine.

Im not sure I completely understand your question with all the double negatives.

Gunsmiths have registration requirements with the ATF as well.

Edited January 5, 2012 by flounder

[20thGix]

I dont work for the BATFE nor do I ever want to have to deal with their interpretation vs someone else s interpretation of the laws because... they will win..

Its not worth the risk to try and "interpret" their laws. Do you really want to take the risk of getting something wrong for a few hundred dollars in possible income vs the 100,000's in fines and possible jail fine.

Im not sure I completely understand your question with all the double negatives.

Gunsmiths have registration requirements with the ATF as well.

Your probally right. Everytime i read through it you can see it either way.

I will re-word the question not that it really matters. For clarity i suppose.

Being that this is not my main income or source of buisness the ATF does not consider you a gunsmith. So by thier definition i would not be subject to all the rules and regs that come along with a FFL holding gunsmith.

I'm sure that somewhere in the 200+ pages of laws there is an if, and, or, but, or see sec. 2a that would make that stament false.