Need info on this gun

[rubbersidedown]

I recently inherited a shotgun that was my grandfather's.

The gun is a double barrel 12 Ga. side by side with exposed hammers. From what I can tell from the stampings on the gun it was manufactured by the International-Arms Company. I have not been able to find any information on this company.

The only other stamping on the gun (besides decorative markings) is "Belgian Laminated Steel" which is on the top of the gun, between the barrels.

I need help with history of International-Arms and this gun. Also, a ballpark figure of what is it worth. (I understand this relies on condition.) Last, would it still be safe to shoot with today's loads?

Edited February 19, 2012 by rubbersidedown

[r1crusher]

I have my BBoGV out and I can't find that manufacturer in it. Can you post any and all markings on it? A pic might help also.

[ReconRat]

try a google search for Century International Arms JW-2000 Coach shotgun

this is a more recent item, they sold for about 250

not sure if that is what you have

edit: but basically called a coach shotgun when you're searching

Edited February 19, 2012 by ReconRat

[rubbersidedown]

I'll get some pics up.

Yeah, I've seen that JW-2000, thats not my gun. Mine is at least 70 years old by my guess.

[C-bus]

International Arms was a firearms distributor in Hamburg, Germany. The guns generally have a small roll mark indicating the manufacturer (Merkel being a strong possibility for a double). I believe WWII era. It was not uncommon to see these in the collection of a WWII vet. Was gramps a vet? That could have some real value. I'll keep researching as this is based on memory (with a few edits as I've found stuff on the webz ).

WWW.Germanguns.com may be able to help.

The High Road gun forum has some discussion about it. You could join and post pics.

Edited February 19, 2012 by C-bus

[ReconRat]

Struggling to understand why the name is in English, if it might be a German firearm.

I would think that International Arms Company would probably be an importer.

Difficult, since "International Arms" is a common phrase, and clouds the searching.

But I just found CMR International Arms Company (UK). It looks like they imported German firearms to England? Searching...

http://www.cmrfirearms.com/shop/

edit: argh, don't think so. Nothing found on where they ever imported shotguns...

Edited February 19, 2012 by ReconRat

[ReconRat]

ok, this might be the world war two era of International Armament Corporation. Set up by Samuel Cummings in 1953. It specialized in war surplus everything. It had names like INTERARMS, INTERARMCO, IAC. Or it's a similar company set up around the same era.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_Cummings

[C-bus]

Close-up pics of any markings would be most helpful.

[rubbersidedown]

Pics

[ReconRat]

percussion cap? ok, it is quite old... I'd guess late 1800s.

edit: probably not percussion cap, that's the firing pin/striker that the hammer falls on...

edit: here's an example of a Belgian import from American Gun Company of New York. $400 in this condition. What you get in this era is hardware stores, department stores, and catalogs were selling firearms with their own names on them. Prices can go up to $3000 depending on manf and cond.

http://images.gunsinternational.com/listings/100224595-1-L.jpg

Here's a Stevens of that era, worth $65 to $500 depending upon condition.

http://gastatic.com/UserImages/3220/976911202/wm_449000.jpg

Old shotgun article:

http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=59

Edited February 19, 2012 by ReconRat

[ReconRat]

Found this at gabelguns.com , a guy that will answer any questions about your old shotgun.

International was a trade name used on shotguns made for E.C. Meacham & Co. who were dealers located in St. Louis MO, 1871 to 1900.

You might be able to find ECMA or ECMC marked on it somewhere.

Another article for a shotgun like yours:

http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=274481&p=2346198

It refers to these as JABC = just another belgian clunker.

And says they go on auctions for $50-$100.

Guessing the age as 1880 to 1914.

edit: still confusing, since nothing exactly matches. "The International" was a name used by Simonis, Janssen & Dumoulin of Liege, Belgium. Belgium gun makers from 1884 to 1905. Same name sometimes found on other Belgian imports.

edit deux: The most common multiple name manufacture/importer was Cresent Firearms Company. A list can be found here: http://www.gundealersonline.com/firearmID.asp

Cross reference guide for retailers and trade names vs manufacturer:

http://www.hoosiergunworks.com/catalog/cross_reference.html

And everything anyone ever wanted to know about identifying an old shotgun:

http://www.shotgunworld.com/identify.html

And I still don't see yours anywhere yet...

Edited February 19, 2012 by ReconRat

[scottb]

I dont know what that shotgun is or what it is worth, but I like it. I am still amazed at thought and craftsmanship of the 70 - 100 year old firearms.

[rubbersidedown]

Recon,

Thanks for the help, this is what I’ve been able to find out from the sites you found.

It is a Belgian made gun as indicated by the proof marks that I found, the letters "ELG" in an oval with the star below the letters and a crown above. (I found the proofs because one of the sites you sent told me where to find them.) The proof indicates that it was a black power gun manufactured between 1880 and 1914.

International Arms seems to be a trade brand name, manufactured as “hardware guns”. I cannot find the link between International Arms and Crescent Firearms or InterArms which would close this circle.

I also found the Trade Mark “MD” the manufacturer using this trademark is listed as “Unknown”. That can’t be good for value.

Summary is, it doesn’t seem to be worth much and it isn’t safe to shoot.

[speedytriple]

Clean it up and it would be a cool wall hanger.

[Gump]

/\ This. Or take it to a gun show and talk to some gun brokers.

[scottb]

I would look nice on my wall

[grapesmuggler27]

I would look nice on my wall

this if you need some extra track money let me know I would be interested in something like this for the man cave

[vf1000ride]

Wall hanger material. Laminate steel means a Damascus barrel. They can be safe to shoot if they are in extremely good condition and you have them x-rayed for flaws. Otherwise keep if for the historic value and buy something more modern to shoot.

[scottb]

Since it was Granddad's, just keep it in the family. It is a very cool, neat, interesting firearm.

[ReconRat]

So it fires a cap and powder instead of a cartridge? It was hard to tell from the picture.

Yeah, I wouldn't try firing it. Not this one.

[vf1000ride]

Looks like a standard side hammer gun to me. Just with the old style barrels are not proofed for nitro cartridges. You would need to find 12gauge shells loaded with black power. A buddy of mine has a gun very similar looking to that that has the newer style barrels. He can fire modern shells, just the light field loads and sporting clays stuff that doesn't have as much barrel pressure.

[vf1000ride]

Forgot to mention, something that old probably fires either 2inch or 2-1/2inch shells and not the newer 2-3/4 shells.

[rubbersidedown]

So it fires a cap and powder instead of a cartridge? It was hard to tell from the picture.

Yeah, I wouldn't try firing it. Not this one.

No it isn't a percussion cap, it has a firing pin. It is designed for the shell to have a black powder instead of "smokeless" powder.