Mary#17 Posted March 23, 2012 Report Share Posted March 23, 2012 Look, dude... There is starting to get a bunch of crazy info in here. Take this for whatever you wish, but here's my opinion... The 180 is going to feel faster due to the width of the tire. The 55 profile vs the 50 as YSR mentioned is why it will feel different from the stock 190/50 vs what you have now. Will feel faster actually. BUT, if you had a 180 on there (Common tire size), the 190 will feel slower. Benefit of the 190 is a larger tire patch at lean. That's really it. More weight on rotational mass and slower turn in are the negatives. More grip at full lean while allowing for higher corner speed.All that and this shit with sag and everything is great if you are track riding... Here's my tips for you and your bike. I have a few hours of seat time and maybe some miles on this particular machine both at race and street level.The bike is NOT a current generation chassis like we see in 2005 and newer type bikes. The way to speed the handling up is to raise the rear and lower the front. BUT, be careful doing so. You've already raised the rear slightly. Also, if you want the bike to feel great, yes, sag is important. However, sag is pointless if the springs are not correct. All these people with race suspension and riding the street are throwing cash out the window as it is pointless. You can do great things on stock suspension if you set it up well to YOU and to YOUR riding style.Here's a few things to consider doing:1) Get the forks and shock refreshed. I promise you the oil is pure shit in there. New oil is essential on any bike at times. This is an older bike and the oil probably looks pretty bad... Fresh oil, proper oil height, etc will make a difference. 35 Motorsports. Tell him I sent you. He gives members a discount.2) Springs. This race shit and mentality is for the birds unless you do track days. BUT, the bike is probably oversprung for you at 135lbs. If you don't do springs, yes, sag is important but unless you constantly chase it (Again, a race mentality), once is going to be fine, but sag will change as you ride. It can be beneficial, but the oil breaks down, etc and will change sag. And, nobody is telling you where to set it and so, really... Just have someone help you set the compression and rebound, try it and see where it is and feels for you. Set the sag to where it will work well and forget it. Knobs clickers even in racing are weird folks. I was never one of them and just rode the bike. Reuben isn't a guy like that either. Adjustments and notes? Yes. Turning knobs every session and multiple laps? For the birds...3) get a chassis geometry that suits YOU. Again, if it doesn't feel like it turns in as quick as the 180 did? Go back to a 180. The stock tire should have been a 190/50 from what I remember. The 190/55 is what I would stick with. The front is probably a 120/65 also. Throw that in the trash and get a 120/70 front.3) Tires are different from brand to brand. Not much though. The profiles can be different. It is usually a diameter issue more than profile. Anyone that says the tire feels slower isn't adjusting the chassis to that tire. Change chassis? Get better results. Slap any ol' tire on and hope it works with the same settings you had with a different brand? Yes, will feel possibly different. Hell, may feel better!!In the end, you need to refresh the oil and suspension. Easy and cheap. Then, have Reuben talk to you on setting it up. Springs are like $100 retail. Just get them refreshed and work from there, dude. You'll get so much information from so many different people and many armchair types that your skull will cave in.PM me and we can work on getting you set up and even help set the suspension...Cheers.So you're basically telling him to set the bike up for himself? Doesn't seem too different that what other people have said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moto-Brian Posted March 23, 2012 Report Share Posted March 23, 2012 So you're basically telling him to set the bike up for himself? Doesn't seem too different that what other people have said.Actually, you are throwing out a ton of stuff. Things like harping on sag before the other stuff. Sag is about third or more down on the list for street riders and again, it isn't (if done properly) a set it and forget it for the whole year. Most street guys can benefit from setting the suspension to a general spot and then riding it and adjusting to them. Sag is really a track day or race benefit more than street... You do not adjust triples either. You raise or lower the front by raising or lowering the fork tubes. Also, the rear tire being a 190/55 is really the optimal tire choice for the bike vs the 190/50 it came with. That extra height is minimal, but will benefit the handling as it creates exactly what he stated it did - it falls in faster/quicker. On the OLDER chassis designs like the ZX7 he has, it is the way we adjusted the handling of the bikes back then. Worked great...Finally, he has to set the bike for himself for sure. However, he needs to get it to a general setting in an effort to have a good platform to work from. Otherwise, he is turning knobs and clickers and doing all this shit for nothing. All I am saying is that if he wants to PM me and set a time to help the guy set the suspension and see what we can get accomplished, I am available. I think the biggest thing he needs to do now he has new tires is get the suspension refreshed. That will benefit him more than sag or setting the suspension if the oil in the forks is as grey as the sky in winter... But, what do I know... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whaler Posted March 23, 2012 Report Share Posted March 23, 2012 The big issue here...95 ZX7 has a 5.5" Rim and OEM Tire was 180/55-17They did not go to the 6" Rim until 96The rim really does not fit a 190 series, and the narrow size is throwing off the intended crown/profile.This combo will work, but the feel and turn-in will be off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moto-Brian Posted March 23, 2012 Report Share Posted March 23, 2012 The big issue here...95 ZX7 has a 5.5" Rim and OEM Tire was 180/55-17They did not go to the 6" Rim until 96The rim really does not fit a 190 series, and the narrow size is throwing off the intended crown/profile.This combo will work, but the feel and turn-in will be off.Ya know what, you are right on the 190 tire size... I was a year behind. It's what I get for being old!!However, the current crop 600s all have 5.5 rear rims. Everyone runs 190/55s all day...Also, some are using 190/60 on the same rim width... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MidgetTodd Posted March 23, 2012 Report Share Posted March 23, 2012 I run a 300 rear when I hit the track because I am that baller, and yes on my stock rim cuz the contact patch is the size of my meat hammer that way so I can get negative 0 lean angles. Yea you read that right, negative 0, in the bus stop turn at Putnam and the Keyhole at MidOhio when you 190 bubbies are dragging you right knee.... I'm so far over I'm dragging my left. Wut? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReconRat Posted March 24, 2012 Report Share Posted March 24, 2012 (edited) Just the facts Jack (Dunlop used since most do not list diameters)1991-1995 ZX-7R (ZX 750 K/M) 120/70ZR173.50 rimSportMax Q2 front diameter: 23.80SportMax Qualifier front diameter: 23.79SportMax RoadSmart front diameter: 23.62SportMax D211 GP-A front diameter: 23.81 180/55ZR175.50 rim recommended (6.00 rim allowed)SportMax Q2 rear diameter: 24.97SportMax Qualifier rear diameter: 24.97SportMax RoadSmart rear diameter: 24.84SportMax D211 GP-A rear diameter: not offered1996-2003 ZX-7R (ZX 750 P) 120/70ZR173.50 rimSportMax Q2 front diameter: 23.80SportMax Qualifier front diameter: 23.79SportMax RoadSmart front diameter 23.62SportMax D211 GP-A front diameter: 23.81 190/50ZR176.00 rim recommended (5.50 rim allowed)SportMax Q2 rear diameter: 24.95SportMax Qualifier rear diameter: 24.83SportMax RoadSmart rear diameter: 24.86SportMax D211 GP-A rear diameter: not offeredOther tires not listed for use which might be used:120/60ZR173.50 rimSportMax Q2 front diameter: 22.80SportMax Qualifier front diameter: not offeredSportMax RoadSmart front diameter: 22.91SportMAx D211 GP-A front diameter: not offered190/55ZR176.00 rim recommended (5.50 rim allowed)SportMax Q2 rear diameter: 25.32SportMax Qualifier diameter 25.39SportMax RoadSmart rear diameter: not offeredSportMax D211 GP-A rear diameter: 25.925.50 rim vs 6.00 rim won't change the diameter much, but it would slightly change the width, profile, cornering contact patch, and feel of the tire. Results will vary.So basically if the rear changed from the smallest diameter available to the largest diameter 190/55 offered, it would be a change of 1.09" and lift the back .545".I'm assuming you used a 190/55. If you used a 190/50, there shouldn't have been enough difference in diameter from the 180/55 worth talking about. Although the difference of no tread on a rear tire would be worth 3 to 6 millimeter anyway.Here's the deal. Years ago I couldn't find the correct matching rear tire on one of the old bikes, and went one size larger. Yes, it was like riding on a point (front tire contact). I can relate when you say that. That is what it felt like. But on that bike, the result was ultra snappy turn ins. I got used to it, and I liked it. But you're saying it doesn't feel like that.I'm surprised no one mentioned the effects of tire pressures. The larger tire should run a lower pressure for the correct load rating. Not necessarily for correct handling. Might be worth checking or experimenting with. I'll guess raising the front tire pressure (not over max) and lowering the rear a bit might help. Edited March 24, 2012 by ReconRat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moto-Brian Posted March 24, 2012 Report Share Posted March 24, 2012 Just the facts Jack (Dunlop used since most do not list diameters)1991-1995 ZX-7R (ZX 750 K/M) 120/70ZR173.50 rimSportMax Q2 front diameter: 23.80SportMax Qualifier front diameter: 23.79SportMax RoadSmart front diameter: 23.62SportMax D211 GP-A front diameter: 23.81 180/55ZR175.50 rim recommended (6.00 rim allowed)SportMax Q2 rear diameter: 24.97SportMax Qualifier rear diameter: 24.97SportMax RoadSmart rear diameter: 24.84SportMax D211 GP-A rear diameter: not offered1996-2003 ZX-7R (ZX 750 P) 120/70ZR173.50 rimSportMax Q2 front diameter: 23.80SportMax Qualifier front diameter: 23.79SportMax RoadSmart front diameter 23.62SportMax D211 GP-A front diameter: 23.81 190/50ZR176.00 rim recommended (5.50 rim allowed)SportMax Q2 rear diameter: 24.95SportMax Qualifier rear diameter: 24.83SportMax RoadSmart rear diameter: 24.86SportMax D211 GP-A rear diameter: not offeredOther tires not listed for use which might be used:120/60ZR173.50 rimSportMax Q2 front diameter: 22.80SportMax Qualifier front diameter: not offeredSportMax RoadSmart front diameter: 22.91SportMAx D211 GP-A front diameter: not offered190/55ZR176.00 rim recommended (5.50 rim allowed)SportMax Q2 rear diameter: 25.32SportMax Qualifier diameter 25.39SportMax RoadSmart rear diameter: not offeredSportMax D211 GP-A rear diameter: 25.925.50 rim vs 6.00 rim won't change the diameter much, but it would slightly change the width, profile, cornering contact patch, and feel of the tire. Results will vary.So basically if the rear changed from the smallest diameter available to the largest diameter 190/55 offered, it would be a change of 1.09" and lift the back .545".I'm assuming you used a 190/55. If you used a 190/50, there shouldn't have been enough difference in diameter from the 180/55 worth talking about. Although the difference of no tread on a rear tire would be worth 3 to 6 millimeter anyway.Here's the deal. Years ago I couldn't find the correct matching rear tire on one of the old bikes, and went one size larger. Yes, it was like riding on a point (front tire contact). I can relate when you say that. That is what it felt like. But on that bike, the result was ultra snappy turn ins. I got used to it, and I liked it. But you're saying it doesn't feel like that.I'm surprised no one mentioned the effects of tire pressures. The larger tire should run a lower pressure for the correct load rating. Not necessarily for correct handling. Might be worth checking or experimenting with. I'll guess raising the front tire pressure (not over max) and lowering the rear a bit might help.Again, Dunlop is running a 190/55 and a 190/60 even on 5.5 rims all day on the current crop 600s. Now, Dunlops tend to be SLIGHTLY more narrow when compared to another company's 190 rear... But, not much.I was wrong on the front tire - again going from memory and what I could remember. The fronts on a lot of bikes had the shorter profile front for whatever reason and we ALWAYS jumped them up to 120/70 fronts...As for air pressure, the sidewall dictates that. In most cases these days, depending on the tire - even within the same brand - the sidewalls can be different. On the race stuff with Dunlop, we are running 21-ish rear HOT off the warmers and 23-ish right off the track. That's how stiff the sidewalls are on the Dunlop slicks for example. That's a 200 rear...On the fronts, we are shooting for 32-ish HOT off the warmers and 35-ish right off the track...Same with Michelins except we would check cold before warmers and the DOTs for example were around 17-19-ish cold. Fronts were 30 cold.What that means is that you'd bump the street compounds up as they do not have that aggressive sidewall, but the Q2s were getting 26-ish cold on the rears and 29-ish on the front cold. You'd bump slightly for street use...Not sure where you grabbed that info, but here is Dunlop's info for example on the GPAs which you also had listed which is strange...http://dunlopracing.com/tires-products/d211gpa/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moto-Brian Posted March 24, 2012 Report Share Posted March 24, 2012 Also, he mentioned that it feels like the rear is on a point in his words and stated that it feels like when he barely leans, it wants to lean more or help more... That is basically saying that it turns in quickly. The diameter of the 190/55 is larger than the 180 he had. Thus, effectively raising the rear which again, is what those bikes needed to handle better. Quicker turn in with a wider tire is what the desired effect should be. That is what the tire is giving him.But, there needs to be a slight raise in the rear and typically lowering the front slightly. Or, raising both ends and jacking the rear more as they suffered from ground clearance issues - more track related than street.Overall, the bike is HEAVY. Stable and flat out one of the best memories of riding I ever had from when the bike first came out and the first RR I ever rode to the latest generation and even the RR version that was produced before they axed the line. I loved the bike. It was a porkly thing, but when you adjusted a few things, it was awesome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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