Horrible experience at Vance's Shooting / Wonderful experience at Blackwing

[BDBGoalie]

I was asked about my experience with Vance's in another thread and I figured that if I was going to write this all out, I wanted everyone to have a chance to see it.

I went in during Christmas time looking for a small-frame 1911 to replace my G19 as a EDC. I was open to calibers and sizes, but was looking for a 3" 9mm for the compactness and lighter recoil.

The sales person ran through a few options for 3" and 4" 1911s in 9mm and .45ACP. I ended up selecting a Colt New Agent for its size and the channel sight. The salesperson assured me that 3" 1911s function perfectly (in 9mm or .45ACP) and it would be a reliable EDC.

I took the Colt to the range (Blackwing) and loaded up the first magazine.

Bang. Bang. FTE. Clear. Bang. FTE. Clear. Bang. FTE.... That continued for about 40 rounds.

I borrowed a Wilson Combat magazine and tried that to see if the magazine was the problem. Nope.

I switched ammo to another two different brands. Nope.

By the end of the day the Colt was averaging a malfunction every third shot. Totally unsat.

Since I'm stationed away from home, I had to head back to Ft. Campbell before Vance's opened again on Tuesday. I discussed the problems with Vance's on the phone and they told me to bring it in and they would ship it to Colt. So I cleaned the weapon, wrote a letter to Colt describing the problems, and my wife took the weapon in to have it shipped to Colt.

Well Vance's decided that it was a better idea to give it to their 1911 gunsmith and let him try and fix the problem. Now don't forget that they don't even have a range there to test things. They returned the weapon to my confused wife and she headed home.

Well I got back the following weekend and checked out the pistol. Now when I tried to chamber a round the extractor tension was so high it would pinch a round 3/4 of the way into the chamber and jam. Awesome. Now I had yet another problem to deal with.

I went down to talk to the manager, and after waiting for 35 minutes he came out to see me. I explained the initial problem, the actions taken, and the additional problem after that. He offered to send it to Colt, and I wanted them to have nothing to do with fixing the weapon again. I figured they had their chance and instead tried to go the cheap and easy route. So we argued for 15 minutes about that, until I was fed up and ready to leave and just deal with it myself. I told him I had been a good customer up to that point, and I was a service member. I asked him if he was really going to just let me leave angry and never come back, and he said yes.

At that point another manager came over and offered to return the weapon. This was a decent turn of events, so I was happy they were going to fix the problem. He wrote up a return slip, and I said lets go look at 1911s that work properly. He ran through the same list again, and I ended up with a 3" Kimber in 9mm. Again, I was assured 3" 1911s function perfectly as an EDC. (My research online had not turned up anything saying otherwise directly, just "break-in issues")

So off to Blackwing I went. Ran a few magazines through the Kimber and it fired fine but the slide would not lock back on the last round. I ended up borrowing the same Wilson Combat 9mm magazine and that fixed the problem.

I got to around round 40-45 and FTE. "WTF!!" The malfunctions occurred more and more as the weapon got dirty. I was livid at that point.

I headed to the counter at Blackwing to see if they could give me any advice. I was directed to Kevin Seymour, a sales person and gunsmith (Personal) who specializes in 1911s. The first thing he explained was how the 5" 1911 functioned. This was done in detail with care that I understood everything he was telling me. He the explained why the shortening of the slide to less than 4" made the weapon unreliable. (Slide travel, spring pressures, etc.)

He then took my Kimber and inspected it. He verified that the extractor tension was not set properly. He removed the extractor and adjusted the tension, all while explaining each step to me.

He then examined the slide lock. He showed me how the poor machining by Kimber on their part left too much gap, and the magazine couldn't push far enough to engage the slide. He grabbed a Wilson Combat slide lock and amazingly it worked like a champ.

Then he took my pistol out to the range and test fired it. He verified function and brought it back.

All of this was done out of interest in satisfying a customer, and without any charge.

A week later I was back and I traded my Kimber in on a Wilson. I've never been happier with my EDC, and my new weapons store.

Recap:

Vance's will sell anything to make a buck. They will tell you anything to make that sale.

Blackwing will give you honest answers and point you in the direction of a weapon/product that will do the job you want it to. Although I selected a single member of their staff to praise, all of them offer awesome customer service. Not to mention they offer a lifetime warranty from the store at no additional cost.

Edited May 3, 2012 by BDBGoalie

[Mykill]

so your research uncovered issues during break in period.... what break in period is less than 50 rounds?

If you wanted a 3 inch 9mm 1911 then why not buy one specifically designed for it, like the Springfield EMP for example, in the first place?

Glad it all worked out for you.

[BDBGoalie]

so your research uncovered issues during break in period.... what break in period is less than 50 rounds?

I ran 200 rounds through the Colt with the same issues. I ran 100 rounds through the Kimber. I was not willing to give away anymore money on malfunctioning products.

That brings up another wonderful point. What company can release a product with a $1000+ price tag and still expect a customer to have to fire 300-500 rounds through it before it functions reliably?

That is a pile of horseshit. They should include those rounds, or fire the weapons at the factory until they are ready for use. I'm not paying that much money and just hoping that it will eventually work like it is supposed to.

My Wilson has never had a single issue or a "break-in" period. None of my polymer weapons malfunction for 500 rounds until "broken-in". None of my rifles malfunction for 500 rounds until "broken-in". If they malfunction 10-20 times I take it back. I don't just expect it will go away.

If you bike's brakes didn't work 50% of the time for the first 1000 miles would you write that off as break-in period?

If you wanted a 3 inch 9mm 1911 then why not buy one specifically designed for it, like the Springfield EMP for example, in the first place?

I was tossing the idea of a EMP around but some of the features made me want a traditional 1911 over it. I'd have to look at its specs now to even tell you what those reasons were. I do agree now that if you want a 3" 1911, get an EMP. Else wise buy a 4" or 5". I'd recommend .45ACP as well.

Edited May 3, 2012 by BDBGoalie

[The King]

That brings up another wonderful point. What company can release a product with a $1000+ price tag and still expect a customer to have to fire 300-500 rounds through it before it functions reliably?

That is a pile of horseshit. They should include those rounds, or fire the weapons at the factory until they are ready for use. I'm not paying that much money and just hoping that it will eventually work like it is supposed to.

My Wilson has never had a single issue.

I was tossing the idea of a EMP around but some of the features made me want a traditional 1911 over it. I'd have to look at its specs now to even tell you what those reasons were.

Wilson Combat requires a 500 round break in....that comes from Bill Wilson himself.

I find it strange that you researched 3" 1911's and didn't find anything on reliability issues? It is well documented that less than 5" 1911's have issues.

Also, you say that in your research you found that there were break in issues yet you seem upset that the pistols had these same break in issues?

As I said, I love my Wilson, It is definitely 3 times the pistol of the Kimber........of course it is also 3 times the price.

[BDBGoalie]

Wilson Combat requires a 500 round break in....that comes from Bill Wilson himself.

Agreed. I need to rephrase that to a break-in period is OK for certain things. Like going easy, limiting cleaning, etc. A break-in period where the weapon does not function is not OK.

I find it strange that you researched 3" 1911's and didn't find anything on reliability issues? It is well documented that less than 5" 1911's have issues.

My research was not involved enough. I mainly read reviews that praised each weapon, rather than the forums complaining that they did not work. They encountered a few malfunctions during a full day of shooting, but not anything that really popped a flag. My bad on not being through enough. Vance's bad on telling me they function 100% of the time and are great as EDC.

It does seem that 4" 1911s are pretty reliable across the board. Maybe a little less so with 9mm.

Also, you say that in your research you found that there were break in issues yet you seem upset that the pistols had these same break in issues?

Occasional issues I can understand. Like 1 in 50. Both weapons performed below expectations and malfunctioned much more than was considered the norm. Especially the Colt.

Again, you pay $1000+, you expect your first 300-500 rounds to have an occasional malfunction at the most, not a consistent malfunction all the time.

1 in 10 rounds, unsat. 1 in 3 rounds, waaaay unsat.

The weapon malfunctions pissed me off, but I was much more incensed with the manner Vance's handled the sales and customer service. Should I rephrase things to accentuate that?

As I said, I love my Wilson, It is definitely 3 times the pistol of the Kimber........of course it is also 3 times the price.

Yea, the price tag was a hard one to swallow. I'm very happy I did though.

Edited May 3, 2012 by BDBGoalie

[TSB67]

That brings up another wonderful point. What company can release a product with a $1000+ price tag and still expect a customer to have to fire 300-500 rounds through it before it functions reliably?

That is a pile of horseshit. They should include those rounds, or fire the weapons at the factory until they are ready for use. I'm not paying that much money and just hoping that it will eventually work like it is supposed to.

I had a similar experience and the same feelings with my first and only 1911. Nobody would listen to my problems until I ran $200 worth of ammo through a gun I paid $1200 for. Some warranty repairs and another $200+ worth of ammo, the thing still sucks and is on pretty paperweight duty now.

On a side note Vance did send it back to the manufacturer at no charge to me. On the phone they told me $45, but they ended up just taking care of it without a word from me. I had no expectations of them in the way of customer service, I just see them as a deep discount store.

Edited May 3, 2012 by brn6604

[BDBGoalie]

I had a similar experience and the same feelings with my first and only 1911. Nobody would listen to my problems until I ran $200 worth of ammo through a gun I paid $1200 for. Some warranty repairs and another $200+ worth of ammo, the thing still sucks and is on pretty paperweight duty now.

I understand that, and with as happy as I am with my Wilson, I'm glad I never gave up.

Bring your weapon to Kevin at Blackwing. He'll take care of you.

On a side note Vance did send it back to the manufacturer at no charge to me. On the phone they told me $45, but they ended up just taking care of it without a word from me. I had no expectations of them in the way of customer service, I just see them as a deep discount store.

Maybe, but any business has to have certain standards. Both in sales practices and in customer service. I'll pay extra for that too. It pays out in dividends when things go wrong.

[chevysoldier]

I've never bought firearms at Vance's but have bought other gear/items there. Customer service has always been great and treated me well.

I have bought two guns, Remington 870 and S&W Bodyguard from Buckeye Outdoors. My dad has bought at least two from there as well; Taurus Judge and S&W Bodyguard. Yes, same company but different stores. Never had any issues there either, but none of our guns have had any issues.

Amazes me that a firearm could cost $1000+ and then you still need to put upwards of 500 rounds for it to function properly. Makes me even more happy with my $300-$500 guns that have gone bang every time.

[jagr]

Here's your problem.

You went from a Glock to a 1911 style. Of course you're going to have issues.

And did you research Vance's lighting and parking lot security before you went? I mean you said the Wing place was scary yet Vance's seems safe.

You coul have been raped outside after you were raped inside!

[TMCGRAW]

I looooove Blackwing. I've never went in, felt any pressure or encountered any uncomfortable pushy sales people. Most the people there (not all) are very knowledgeable and are leaps and bounds over other places for satisfaction of resolving an issue.

[vfrbill]

Your 1st mistake was buying a colt. They've been shit since the 80's. Just about all 3" 1911's need some tuning to make them run. I've even seen Wilson's choke. A Kimber or Springfield with a lil tuning is just as good as a Wilson for a third the price. Just my 2 cents. And I tune mine myself

[jblosser]

Vance's: Seems to depend upon who is behind the counter/who you end up with. Some of the guys are friendly, knowledgeable, and will take as much time as you want; others, not so much. I've never had to return anything (maybe I'm lucky?), so I cannot comment about customer service.

Blackwing: Used to shoot there all the time when I lived in the mansion in Galena. I will parrot what the OP said: They are friendly, helpful, etc. Never had an issue.

Before the horrible smelting incident I had a Kimber; Smith/Alex magwell, McCormick and Wilson mags, rest is, er, was all stock. Shot approx. 1500 rounds, 0 fte/ftf. I guess sometimes you bite the dog, sometimes the dog bites you.

Oh, and wheelguns go 'bang' every time. Jus' sayin'.

Edited May 3, 2012 by jblosser
grammatical

[madcat6183]

My brother in law has a 3" KImber 1911 and has never misfired once. And he has never once cleaned it or anything. No jams, nothing, not to mention we have shot so serious junk ammo in it. Stuff thats 20yrs old and sat around in his basement.

Sorry your experience sucked, mine's been great at Vances the 2 guns I've gotten there. They did however sell me a holster that was 3 times the price of what I needed BUT that was because I was in a hurry and didn't research before, so I don't fault them at all. I was young and dumb then, since then, I've always left happy.

Glad it all worked out either way.

[kawi kid]

I've had my problem with buckeye also. We had a pretty good go around on some false advertising. Basically they advertised a gun I had been wanting for a he'll of a good price. I called then up and asked all the questions.... does it have a two stage trigger? Is it 1:7 twist barrel? Is it a 5.56 or .223? Why does it have a skeleton stock? The answers I got were yes, yes, 5.56, and it has it because we ordered them upgraded.

So I drive there and purchase it after asking the same questions again and getting the same answers. But there was one thing the Guy that sold it to me said that made me feel funny about it so I called up the manufacturer and asked them all the same questions and they Gage me the total opposite answers. Wtf!?!?!

So I drove back down the next day and threw one hell of a fit only to be more enraged when they told me I was only going to be able to have store credit back and was getting charged a restocking fee. I kinda lost it, I'm not going to lie. Apparently I did a good enough job ripping the managers ass telling him I was calling the manufacturer back and telling them they were selling their products falsely advertised and my next call would be to the atf. I got my money back needless to say. But day this day I wont buy a gun there ever again. I will still get little things like reloading stuff but ill NEVER buy a gun there again.

[The King]

Here's your problem.

You went from a Glock to a 1911 style. Of course you're going to have issues.

And did you research Vance's lighting and parking lot security before you went? I mean you said the Wing place was scary yet Vance's seems safe.

You coul have been raped outside after you were raped inside!

Wrong, he went from a Glock to a POS 1911. Lumping all 1911's together is like lumping Glocks in with Taurus.

I bought a G26 that was a pos by the way..

[BDBGoalie]

Well I am glad to see I'm not the only one to have problems with the place. I'll continue to encourage people to go elsewhere, mainly Blackwing.

Here's your problem.

You went from a Glock to a 1911 style. Of course you're going to have issues.

I think that is an unfair statement. The 1911 platform can be very reliable if it is set-up properly and fitted correctly. And not messed with too much. Again, the Wilson is the most reliable weapon I've owned thus far.

The benefits of a 1911 platform are well worth it. Smaller profile due to single stack design. Locking barrel design gets great accuracy. Trigger pull is awesome. (The terrible "DA" Glock trigger was enough for me to want to replace it without it being gigantic.) Extra safety features, including a manual safety....

And did you research Vance's lighting and parking lot security before you went? I mean you said the Wing place was scary yet Vance's seems safe.

You coul have been raped outside after you were raped inside!

Lol. At least I can shoot the exterior rapists.

Edited May 3, 2012 by BDBGoalie

[kiggy74]

As I said, I love my Wilson, It is definitely 3 times the pistol of the Kimber........of course it is also 3 times the price.

5 times the price if you buy it at Blackwing.

[The King]

True....mine came from Buds..

[jbot]

should've bought a les baer noob!!!1!11!!!1!one!1

loooololololol

jaaay kaaaayy wilson's are pretty nice

i was looking at wilson, nighthawk, les baer and ed browns but ended up with the les baer (mostly due to the fact i had found a monolith for an ok price and thought they looked neat). i had a sig GSR (1911 clone before they renamed it to "sig 1911"). love the les baer. turns out it shoots alright too lol

[BDBGoalie]

5 times the price if you buy it at Blackwing.

Nope. I got it at a great price.

They do tend to be a little higher normally, and the Delaware tax rate doesn't help. Military discount helps though.

Not to mention that a lifetime warranty comes with it. (Not that it matters with the Wilson) That lifetime warranty is going to be great with my MSAR (Which I got at a price under anything I've seen online as well.)

should've bought a les baer noob!!!1!11!!!1!one!1

loooololololol

jaaay kaaaayy wilson's are pretty nice

i was looking at wilson, nighthawk, les baer and ed browns but ended up with the les baer (mostly due to the fact i had found a monolith for an ok price and thought they looked neat). i had a sig GSR (1911 clone before they renamed it to "sig 1911"). love the les baer. turns out it shoots alright too lol

I looked at the Les Baer's and Ed Brown's but was really drawn to the Wilson. The style, fit, and function was awesome. The factory warranty and support is great.

If you're in the Central Ohio area send me a PM. I'd like to arrange a range day so I can shoot the Baer side by side.

[kiggy74]

When I was shopping for my AR (Colt LE6930) I went to Blackwing first b/c their website said they had one in stock. This was towards the end of the assault rifle scare ('08?) when you could find these rifles online for around $1200 but no stores had them for that price. Blackwing had 1 and was asking $1800 for it.

Vances had dozens, and was asking $1200. I gave up the notion of buying any guns from Blackwing a long time ago. It is a nice place though, and the staff seems pretty friendly.

[crb]

I've not had a single issue with my EMP and I don't religously clean it. I user it in a 2 day advanced CHL 500+ rounds zero issues. No break in period accurate and reliable right put of the box. I looked at a new agent and didn't like the safety or feel compared to my EMP. I've read excellent reviews on wilsons. Kimbers ate hit and miss , and way over rated in my opinion.

[BDBGoalie]

I've not had a single issue with my EMP and I don't religously clean it. I user it in a 2 day advanced CHL 500+ rounds zero issues. No break in period accurate and reliable right put of the box. I looked at a new agent and didn't like the safety or feel compared to my EMP. I've read excellent reviews on wilsons. Kimbers ate hit and miss , and way over rated in my opinion.

The EMP is the exception to the 3" 1911 rule, but then again it isn't really a true 1911. It has been proven to be very reliable and decently accurate.

Kimber = IMO