battery desulphation

[RideSlow]

anyone used one of these chargers that has a "desulphation" process like the Battery Minder and Ctek chargers, using a pulse frequency to break up the deposits and extend battery life, so they claim?

if you've used one, which brand and why? how did it work out?

I've got smart type chargers (a schumacher and a noco) on my other battery's they seem to keep them going well but I need another small draw to use this winter for the bike and thought I might get a desulphating type to rotate into the mix.

looking at Cteks or BatteryMinders specifically, but any in the sub $100 market would take a peak at...

examples

http://www.amazon.com/Multi-12-Volt-Smart-Battery-Charger/dp/B000FQBWCY

http://www.amazon.com/BatteryMINDer-Charger-Maintainer-Desulfater-Model/dp/B005EKY1EM

Edited August 17, 2012 by RideSlow
added linkies for examples

[serpentracer]

the battery still wont last much longer. once that process sets in it's like cancer. it comes from over charging. those little battery tenders will do it. if you don't believe me that they keep charging all the time and never shut off throw a multi meter on it and find out. all it does is go from a full charge to a trickle charge. they never shut off. and that will cook a battery and shorten it's life a lot. battery tenders are the biggest gimmick I can think of.

best thing you can do for a battery is only charge it for a little while once a month. and don't keep it indoors where the temps are over 60. heat also drains a battery faster than the cold. yuasa recommends you charge a battery once a month if kept below 60 and 2 times a month if over 60.

and if it's a AGM you don't need any chargers for it. they can last 15 months sitting without charging.

Edited August 17, 2012 by serpentracer

[Gixxus Christ!]

I was always under the impression that a battery tender charged and discharged the battery alternately....

[ped]

You're batteries aren't flooded types of yester year where you just add water occasionally. Modern bike batteries cannot handle over-charging at all (cause they're recombinant) and they don't self-discharge anywhere near the rate either. A maintainer is a giant no-no.

A desulfation is a sort of last throws of a battery. It can help but only so much. You use that when your battery accepts a charge but cannot hold up under load. You don't use that in general. Just to try to bring one back from the dead.

I was always under the impression that a battery tender charged and discharged the battery alternately....

No they hold a steady voltage and let the battery self-discharge a certain amount then kick back in again.

Edited August 18, 2012 by ped

[RideSlow]

humm, I've been using them on my generator and lawn tractor so they don't die over the winter, the generator battery has been in place for many years and never had a problem. I replaced the whole mower 2 years ago and its been in use since and worked out ok so far. I doubt the lawn mower batteries are the newer type of battery your speaking of though?

many many people swear by tenders of one form or another... you are the first I've heard to say this, are they using them to offset a parasitic loss? every quad I ever owned had a winter tender on it, never had to replace a battery. I'm sure if I disconnected the battery and kept it out of the cold would be "better" but the wife has rules about vehicle parts in the house lol.

[ped]

humm, I've been using them on my generator and lawn tractor so they don't die over the winter, the generator battery has been in place for many years and never had a problem. I replaced the whole mower 2 years ago and its been in use since and worked out ok so far. I doubt the lawn mower batteries are the newer type of battery your speaking of though?

Correct. They're the kind that do need a tender.

many many people swear by tenders of one form or another... you are the first I've heard to say this, are they using them to offset a parasitic loss? every quad I ever owned had a winter tender on it, never had to replace a battery. I'm sure if I disconnected the battery and kept it out of the cold would be "better" but the wife has rules about vehicle parts in the house lol.

80% of the country believe adam and eve rode dinosaurs to church too.

For a relatively significant parasitic load a tender would be a very good idea. Any battery that sits in a discharged state will be damaged by sulfation. Unless you have aftermarket mods you shouldn't have a parasitic load though.

Keeping the batteries in the cold is better. Heat causes higher self-discharging rates. Battery capacity is diminished with the cold but that is a different aspect altogether.

If you want to know if you need a tender or if I am full of shit just keep a tab on the battery voltage with a multimeter this winter and note it's amount of weekly or monthly self-discharge.

Here is a good faq to go over

http://www.windsun.com/Batteries/Battery_FAQ.htm#What is a Battery?

Edited August 18, 2012 by ped

[Gixxus Christ!]

My dad has a vrod, and I guess the ecu runs constantly due to the factory anti-theft. He keeps it on a tender because the parasitic load from the ecu killed his battery the first winter he stored it. Is this wrong?

[ped]

No. Stupid engineering though.

What's happening with the sealed batteries and a tender is they recombine the oxygen and hydrogen inside the battery during charging instead of just venting it off like a flooded type does. But they have a valve for pressure release (VRLA-valve regulated lead acid). When you put a constant voltage to them over a long period of time like a tender does it can cause the valves to have to vent the excess pressure equaling water loss. Since they're sealed you can't replace it by simply adding distilled water. And again they just don't need it anyway as they self-discharge 15X slower.

If you have a parasitic load on the other hand it will help to keep the excessive venting in check as it balances everything out. You can look at it as the high self-discharge rates of traditional batteries act as a parastic load for instance thus needing a tender.

Edited August 18, 2012 by ped

[jporter12]

My dad has a vrod, and I guess the ecu runs constantly due to the factory anti-theft. He keeps it on a tender because the parasitic load from the ecu killed his battery the first winter he stored it. Is this wrong?

I'd say store it with the battery disconnected for the winter.

[RideSlow]

sooo, I need to replace my lawn mower and generator batteries with AGM's (size 16 looks only slightly smaller and double the cranking amps) and what? just charge them a few times a year and let it be? would be nice if that is all it takes. I'd spend that money if your right.

reading your linky

"This "leakage" or self discharge varies considerably with battery type, age, & temperature. It can range from about 1% to 15% per month. Generally, new AGM batteries have the lowest, and old industrial (Lead-Antimony plates) are the highest. In systems that are continually connected to some type charging source, whether it is solar, wind, or an AC powered charger this is seldom a problem. However, one of the biggest killers of batteries is sitting stored in a partly discharged state for a few months. A "float" trickle charge should be maintained on the batteries even if they are not used (or, especially if they are not used). Even most "dry charged" batteries (those sold without electrolyte so they can be shipped more easily, with acid added later) will deteriorate over time. Max storage life on those is about 18 to 30 months."

and

"Inactivity can be extremely harmful to a battery. It is a VERY poor idea to buy new batteries and "save" them for later. Either buy them when you need them, or keep them on a continual trickle charge. The best thing - if you buy them, use them."

Edited August 18, 2012 by RideSlow

[ped]

sooo, I need to replace my lawn mower and generator batteries with AGM's (size 16 looks only slightly smaller and double the cranking amps) and what? just charge them a few times a year and let it be? would be nice if that is all it takes. I'd spend that money if your right.

If you want to buy $110 batteries for your lawnmower sure. Won't need to ever charge them unless the mower or generator doesn't or you won't use them for 18+ months.

reading your linky

"This "leakage" or self discharge varies considerably with battery type, age, & temperature. It can range from about 1% to 15% per month. Generally, new AGM batteries have the lowest, and old industrial (Lead-Antimony plates) are the highest. In systems that are continually connected to some type charging source, whether it is solar, wind, or an AC powered charger this is seldom a problem. However, one of the biggest killers of batteries is sitting stored in a partly discharged state for a few months. A "float" trickle charge should be maintained on the batteries even if they are not used (or, especially if they are not used). Even most "dry charged" batteries (those sold without electrolyte so they can be shipped more easily, with acid added later) will deteriorate over time. Max storage life on those is about 18 to 30 months."

and

"Inactivity can be extremely harmful to a battery. It is a VERY poor idea to buy new batteries and "save" them for later. Either buy them when you need them, or keep them on a continual trickle charge. The best thing - if you buy them, use them."

And you have the lowest self-discharging batteries in your bike. Note they didn't make any distinction on type. You're losing about 1% per month for 4-6 months during the coldest period of the year. Versus 15% per month. And on top of that your batteries are very sensitive to over-charging. The entire reason for a tender is so that the battery doesn't sit in a discharged state.

There's also another technical aspect we haven't yet covered which is AGM's much lower internal resistance. I was going to save that for when someone brought up that the tenders website says it is set to a voltage at or below electrolysis level. But to keep it simple not only is gassing detrimental as they're sealed, AGM's begin to gas at lower float voltages because of the less resistance (you can bulk charge them at 2C versus ~6C). Furthermore, all batteries internal impedance goes up with ambient temperature.

And finally there's a quadruple whammy in the equation. Because they are glass matt they have significantly less electrolyte available to be boiled off.

-gasses at lower float voltages

-cannot be replenished

-retains a charged voltage much longer

-has less available gassing headroom

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VRLA_battery

Edited August 18, 2012 by ped

[serpentracer]

all I know is all my buddies with a tender have stopped using them and their batteries have lasted significantly longer.

I never have put my R6's battery on any kind of charger or tender. and it's the original battery with a 2002 date code on it. my experience might be unique. I for sure have no parasitic power drain. and I ride my bike a few times a month at least. except in winter. I often start it up for a half hour every month or two.

it's a GS brand (yuasa) AGM.

http://gsbattery.com/

Edited August 18, 2012 by serpentracer

[jblosser]

...80% of the country believe adam and eve rode dinosaurs to church too.

idiot. everyone knows Adam and Eve rode a donkey to Bethlehem and had baby Jesus.

Geez. (pun intended)

I think we've found ped's area of knowledge - batteries, that is - not Bible history.

Thanks for the info!

[RideSlow]

If you want to buy $110 batteries for your lawnmower sure. Won't need to ever charge them unless the mower or generator doesn't or you won't use them for 18+ months.

I guess I've been schooled then, the only reason I said this was it would be nice to need 2 less chargers in the way, and the mower gets run regularly 9 months of the year, but sits 3 and when I first got it it died first winter because I didn't get around to it. seems like a good application. a size etx16 is 85 bucks walkin at the local oreilly, its the cheapest agm thats close in size around here. I get a discount on them from my work around 10% usually.

I would think this would be even better for the generator though, two times a year start it up and run it an hour and let it go. less money in electricity and less hassle to boot. if its plugged in I have to check them regularly to make sure they haven't run away or etc.

it sounds like the way to go when the battery dies, i have a harley size 14 that my neighbor gave me becuase he let it get low and rather than charge it he bought a replacement since he (like pep lol) doesn't own a charger (I offered but he said to hell with it so I paid the $10 core and took it off his hands) . this may get tossed on the generator to try your theory out, after a smart charge it appears to be holding 12.54 voltage 2 weeks later.

[dustinsn3485]

I think we've found ped's area of knowledge - batteries, that is - not Bible history.

Thanks for the info!

Just one "experts" opinion.

This thread is just like an oil or tire thread. There's an "expert" for or against everything.

I use a yuasa smart shot 900 on my bike batteries. They've all lasted many years. I've never had a problem with the charger. If the bike sits more than 2 weeks I have it plugged into the charger.

[ped]

Just one "experts" opinion.

This thread is just like an oil or tire thread. There's an "expert" for or against everything.

I use a yuasa smart shot 900 on my bike batteries. They've all lasted many years. I've never had a problem with the charger. If the bike sits more than 2 weeks I have it plugged into the charger.

I change my oil if it sits more than two days. Some "experts" disagree with this but my bike has 60k miles and is still running. They try to say oil comes from the ground but that's just their "opinion."

it sounds like the way to go when the battery dies, i have a harley size 14 that my neighbor gave me becuase he let it get low and rather than charge it he bought a replacement since he (like pep lol) doesn't own a charger (I offered but he said to hell with it so I paid the $10 core and took it off his hands) . this may get tossed on the generator to try your theory out, after a smart charge it appears to be holding 12.54 voltage 2 weeks later.

12.54 is like 91% charge. And just because it's holding there doesn't mean it's good. It might be sulfated and drain quickly under load.

Edited August 18, 2012 by ped

[Al Z. Heimer]

http://www.yuasabatteries.com/pdfs/TechManual_2009.pdf. This link pertains primarily to motorcycle batteries not deep cycle batteries that was provided by another poster. Read it and you will be able to make an educated decision as to how you want to take care of your stuff.

[RideSlow]

I change my oil if it sits more than two days. Some "experts" disagree with this but my bike has 60k miles and is still running. They try to say oil comes from the ground but that's just their "opinion."

I want so much to like your info and trust you, but I just can't get past your IMO plain obnoxious behavior, you have alot of info in that head of yours, I hope for your sake you learn how to share without sounding like a jerk. thanks for the info, I'll do more research and decide for myself.

http://www.yuasabatteries.com/pdfs/TechManual_2009.pdf. This link pertains primarily to motorcycle batteries not deep cycle batteries that was provided by another poster. Read it and you will be able to make an educated decision as to how you want to take care of your stuff.

this is a great piece of info, its by a battery maker that is highly respected, yes they make chargers, but they also tell you how to pick a charger without risk of overcharging, thank you for the addition! an interesting timeline they put out for self discharge is not even close to peds ideas, shows his thinking is not wrong but his math on rate of decline is very off.

"Conventional lead-antimony batteries

discharge at about 1/100 volt a day… the lead-calcium

sealed VRLA battery, 1/300 volt per day. Looking

at it another way, a conventional battery fully charged

and stored for a month will lose roughly a third of its

charge; the sealed VRLA battery handled the same

way would lose about 10%."

I use a yuasa smart shot 900 on my bike batteries. They've all lasted many years. I've never had a problem with the charger. If the bike sits more than 2 weeks I have it plugged into the charger.

this is my experience to date, agm or other, sub 1 amp chargers and no worries.

[ped]

http://www.yuasabatteries.com/pdfs/TechManual_2009.pdf. This link pertains primarily to motorcycle batteries not deep cycle batteries that was provided by another poster. Read it and you will be able to make an educated decision as to how you want to take care of your stuff.

Deepcycle or starting has nothing to do with anything. That's just plate design differences. This article is a "battery basics for dumbies."

It's entire premise is:

"Check your voltage periodically during storage, charge if needed. Overcharging will destroy a VRLA."

not

"Throw an Autozone tender on there for 5 months cause that's what most biker yokals say to do."

I want so much to like your info and trust you, but I just can't get past your IMO plain obnoxious behavior, you have alot of info in that head of yours, I hope for your sake you learn how to share without sounding like a jerk. thanks for the info, I'll do more research and decide for myself.

this is a great piece of info, its by a battery maker that is highly respected, yes they make chargers, but they also tell you how to pick a charger without risk of overcharging, thank you for the addition! an interesting timeline they put out for self discharge is not even close to peds ideas, shows his thinking is not wrong but his math on rate of decline is very off.

Did you eat paint chips as a kid?

Edited August 19, 2012 by ped

[ponyjr]

I've got one of the medium and large cteks. I've had them for about a year now, can't say that I've noticed a difference between them and the Battery Tenders I also use.But i also haven't had to replace a battery in that time period.

Two reason I bought them

-the big one has a 8 step reconditioning cycle, seemed to help out the battery in my dads car as it was iffy before and seems fine now a year later

-both of the chargers have a mode specific for the Optima batterys, which I also have in a car.

For the slight increase in price between them and a tender, I'd buy the ctek again if for nothing else the separate for bikes(900ma) and cars(3a).Just my $0.02.

[RideSlow]

Did you eat paint chips as a kid?

did your mother forget to hug you?

----

we are so far off my original intent, I give up. I'm not going to respond again (to ped) unless its about desulphation, sorry ped, not really here to start an insult war with a troll.

-----

thanks PonyJr, appreciate the opinion and info.

Edited August 19, 2012 by RideSlow

[serpentracer]

ped that's how this sort of thing works. if 4 out of 6 guys use a charger all winter regardless if all of them are replacing batteries every 2-3 years and the other 2 never has, they'll keep using a charger regardless.

Edited August 19, 2012 by serpentracer

[idodishez]

Not reading through all this and Peds trolling. All I know I had to replace the battery EVERY season on my zx7. Had to replace it on my zx10 twice so

far (luckily the latter was warrantied) Only Had the 10 for 3 seasons now. Got a zx6 this year, and it was dead after sitting for several weeks.

I have a battery tender, but never use it over winter. Only when they die. So whatever you all do, don't do what I do.

Nobama 2012

[RideSlow]

ped that's how this sort of thing works. if 4 out of 6 guys use a charger all winter regardless if all of them are replacing batteries every 2-3 years and the other 2 never has, they'll keep using a charger regardless.

not picking sides, I just see that there is informational proof both ways, it may be bike and style dependant, but I would like to get back to desulphating as I have 2 other batteries that might benefit from this process even if my bike wont, even ped agrees the other 2 flooded cell batteries need some form of maintenance for the winter.

Not reading through all this and Peds trolling. All I know I had to replace the battery EVERY season on my zx7. Had to replace it on my zx10 twice so

far (luckily the latter was warrantied) Only Had the 10 for 3 seasons now. Got a zx6 this year, and it was dead after sitting for several weeks.

I have a battery tender, but never use it over winter. Only when they die. So whatever you all do, don't do what I do.

Nobama 2012

thanks for the opinion, appreciate you checking in, what kind of charger do you use? (battery tender brand or did you mean it generalized)

Edited August 19, 2012 by RideSlow

[idodishez]

Nobama 2012