It's end of the season. Let's discuss a few track day topics. Passing...

[Moto-Brian]

So, was sitting and having an awesome discussion on track days and racing and such with a few buddies. The topic of passing came up in track days. One of the guys that was with a buddy was a bit upset over some passes. He mentioned a pass that I even put on him at Mid-Ohio and felt it was just too close and wasn't what was told to be the norm by the track day director Todd...

So, we all started in on the topic and I came away thinking it would be a good topic to discuss on a forum...

The idea is that yes, the rule is a "wingspan" in Advanced. Bigger in Intermediate. Those are guidelines of course and shit happens where it will be closer on occasion. But, if used as a guide, it shouldn't be an issue on either party's side.

The bottom line is that the one passing (passer) is responsible for a safe and clean pass. In this case, even responsible for the distance between when passing.

Well, that's great in theory.

I've passed guys while leaning on them in a race, I've banged into a guy when stuffing him like a Thanksgiving turkey and I have also been stuffed and hit by others when I was first racing. Shoulders, elbows, knees, etc. All have brushed, been hit or used when hitting/passing.

All under race conditions and most unintentional. For the most part, I have never been accused of a dirty pass or even an aggressive pass.

During track days, things are different. I don't honestly trust most the riders and with that, I try to avoid close passes. Reason is two fold. One, I don't want to spook a rider. I just want to try and make it clean and quick enough that I am there and gone in an effort to just do my thing and get on down the road. I will pass quickly and cruise after. Meaning, I will speed up to pass and drop the hammer if need be to get by and then step it down after so I can run a normal and uneventful pace.

Two, I don't want to be taken out. This is something that has happened to me and the reason was due to the first issue. Rider got spooked and I ended up highsiding and a dislocated shoulder and a concussion and a severely broken bike. I honestly try and make it a quick in and out and do this as often as I can to avoid this. Or, if they do get spooked, it is after I am either far enough passed them that if they do get spooked and sit up or react in a way that could cause issue, I am out of the danger zone.

So, getting back to the guy that had issue. The scenario:

Guy rides a big twin. He is a fairly capable Advanced level track day guy. NOT a racer, but I would say he is above average in terms of pace and ability. Smooth and fairly predictable. Easy enough, right? But, there is the typical issues. His bike is fast out of a corner due to the big twin and has ass down the straights. All well and fine, but the issue then is that the typical part being that he brakes too much and has slower corner speed. Thus, you draw him back under brakes and mid corner.

So, in this case, I get up on the guy at the entry of the Keyhole and do not catch him before the exit. I draw him in from a distance, but he is exiting before me and I have to deal with that big motor. I get a better drive and allows me to start the process of SLOWLY drawing him in. I essentially cause a stalemate as the better drive compensates for the lack of horsepower and I essentially maintain a gap from behind him.

I anticipate that he will brake early and scrub a lot of speed going in off the back straight into 7. I move out right and go to pass under him into 7 like I have done maybe a thousand times. He however comes down into the turn on me and it is closer than I made it to be. He sits up as he finally sees me when right beside me. I keep the speed and carry on. I get into Thunder and look over my shoulder to see if he was there and he wasn't before I turned around. Basically, he was well back at that point.

The second scenario:

Same dude...

I come up on the guy coming under the second bridge. I gain ground in Thunder even more so. In typical fashion, turn 13 (called 14 on a map due to superstition) is a turn that tends to get a lot of guys braking early and running slower than needed there. It's an awesome passing point, but if somewhat "iffy", I will wait until the carousel to pass.

Well, it was "iffy" so, I drive well out of 13 (14) and into the carousel. He sets up wide left which is also typical and I take the inside line. Again, he is MUCH wider left to me than the line I typically take and in fact, I was taking the same line I always do so, it wasn't any tighter nor squared off. However, again... He comes across and down into the turn and I am there and it sits him up. Closer this time, but no contact and I drive out and keep on moving. That one was a pass that I didn't even think was an issue, but was more of an issue in his mind.

So, during the conversation, I remember he had come over to the garage where my buddy was and my buddy throws me under the bus telling the guy I was the asshole that stuffed him twice out there. Thanks, Mike!

He gets a little huffy and I ask him why he was pissed? He said it was really close and that I stuffed him which is not what is supposed to happen. He also was upset that I wasn't even running with anyone else and that I could have just waited. So, I basically told him they were clean passes and that there was more than enough room and were both safe and smooth. I mentioned he was off line a good bit and came across on both occasions and I was already obligated.

So, here's my comment for discussion...

The thought occurred to me that you can make a nice and clean pass that is about 6' away from another rider. I started the pass much earlier than he realized and I think the issue is that while making the pass, I was within that safe distance asked to be followed by track directors, but when the rider came down and across, he did not see me nor know I was there until he was already leaned over and pointing towards the apex. So, he came across and I was already in the spot he was aiming for. That shock that the spot was filled spooked him and caused him to sit up. So, he feels I stuffed him as before his turn in, I was there occupying that portion of the track.

I guess what I am saying is that I was making clean pass and obligated and started something that was safe and clean. It ended clean - no touching and we had a good bit of room even though he thought otherwise - but, the issue isn't the pass itself, but rather, the time the passee realized I was there passing...

I also think that a lot of times, what is close to one person is a MILE away for another. Comfort zones, experience, etc come into play. There are also times where I fuck up. I can target a pass under braking off the back straight or even turn one and when I get in there hot, realize sometimes early enough it is too close and get 'er shut down hard and avoid it being an aggressive pass or sometimes, I cannot change the delivery of the pass intended and due to the speed difference, for me to shut it down and not make the pass, I am weighing a crash that could take more than myself out or make a stuff/aggressive pass and move along.

I am not saying I am Rossi here so, for you guys reading this as arrogant and holier-than-thou at track days, that's not the case at all. This happens to a lot of guys and even Intermediate riders. This is something I was thinking about and thought to share to see what others think...

Discuss.

[nk140]

Each person has their own way of thinking what a safe pass is and is not. I for one would not have had a problem with either of the passes that you mentioned, but that is me and that is why I got into racing. I don't get spooked too easy anymore.

I am probably one of the nicest passers in track days and racing but I have done what you have mentioned a few times. Especially against liter bikes when I am on my 600. These situations happen when the closing speed is high. I have only had one person come up to me about a pass and it was someone riding in Advanced at Putnam that should have been in Intermediate. I apologized and just went about my own business not changing a thing instead of trying to tell him his riding was the main reason for the close pass. I was the passer, he was the passe, and I was responsible for the safe clean pass(which it was).

[madcat6183]

I've banged a guy when stuffing him like a Thanksgiving turkey and I have also been stuffed and hit by others when I was first racing.

What???

But yeah, I think this is a good topic especially for new ones, I know I got ran off the track twice on a Friday night Nelson event. Luckily it was right where the old track was so I just went straight, had I gone down, words or more would have been exchanged. And I am not a fighter.

[redkow97]

Two guys split me braking into 1 at Nelson. The one on my inside hit me. I assume I turned in earlier than he anticipated, and definitely braked earlier than he anticipated.

Given that his alternative was slamming into my rear wheel, and knowing that I have come up in slower riders who do shit that I consider cooky and unnecessary, I wasn't mad for more than a few seconds. Easy to laugh when we all stay up, but I know no one involved intended to spook me or make contact.

I try to remember that for every scenario. No one throws a leg over their bike intending to go out and piss off other riders.

[TRMN8TR]

I was hoping this was going to be a discussion on how to set up a good pass in a race situation. We'll have to discuss that later.

I have learned a lot about passing and getting passed from racing. The long story short is, in a track day situation there's no need to put an aggressive pass on anyone. And keep in mind, what you think is ok is likely to close for most trackday guys. Trust me, I was told what I thought was a super clean pass spoiled one of the intermediate riders during the "mixed" session after the last mock start.

[blue03636]

Brian, if your that close and already that far past them, they should be able to hear you IMO. Personally I give them the distance but if they move or ride in an odd part of the track and get within that distance I don't consider that my problem as that comes down to running consistent lines. My thing is it's A group, there will be some closer passes, as long as they are clean there shouldn't be an issue.

I know a guy that I was passing out of the carousel at nelsons and I went right, he starts to move right, I said screw it and went left and as he decides to shift left we damn near hit elbows. Jinu was behind me and said I scared the crap out of the guy but there was nothing I could do as he couldn't even go in a straight line.

[RHill]

First time I was "stuffed" was turn 4 at nelson. I'll be the first to admit, I was taking it a little too wide, over-braking, and cutting in.....wasn't apparent to me at the time, but watching video afterward really showed me where I was screwing up.(especially the trailing camera with advance guys behind me)

I'm sure as hell it didnt start as a stuff; just a comfortable inside pass. It is completely my fault; but it comes with inexperience that should be expected at track days......I'm sure I'll be doing it again next year.

I'm glad the passer in this situation stuck with it, because if they let off I might not have caught sight of them and came all the way inside onto their front end.

The following is another example of a close pass that for an intermediate rider can be surprising. It wasn't unsafe, hell it was almost on a straight.....but it was surprising for me. Never had a bike within elbows reach before.

http://youtu.be/kmJ-g0VweFE?t=3m26s

With all that being said, I have confidence everyone will act on the safe side; if not out of the interest of others, out of self preservation. The only thing that scares me, is my own unpredictability.

Edited October 26, 2012 by RHill

[Moto-Brian]

I was hoping this was going to be a discussion on how to set up a good pass in a race situation. We'll have to discuss that later.

I have learned a lot about passing and getting passed from racing. The long story short is, in a track day situation there's no need to put an aggressive pass on anyone. And keep in mind, what you think is ok is likely to close for most trackday guys. Trust me, I was told what I thought was a super clean pass spoiled one of the intermediate riders during the "mixed" session after the last mock start.

We can discuss race passes! Not a problem.

So far, it is only racers talking so far and I hope it doesn't spook the track day guys as I want them to talk about what they feel is too close or fine, etc...

The idea of yours that there is no reason to put an aggressive pass on a rider at a track day is well and good, but the problem is like what I used as an example where it probably could be viewed as aggressive, but was not intended that way.

[Moto-Brian]

First time I was "stuffed" was turn 4 at nelson. I'll be the first to admit, I was taking it a little too wide, over-braking, and cutting in.....wasn't apparent to me at the time, but watching video afterward really showed me where I was screwing up.(especially the trailing camera with advance guys behind me)

I'm sure as hell it didnt start as a stuff; just a comfortable inside pass. It is completely my fault; but it comes with inexperience that should be expected at track days......I'm sure I'll be doing it again next year.

I'm glad the passer in this situation stuck with it, because if they let off I might not have caught sight of them and came all the way inside onto their front end.

The following is another example of a close pass that for an intermediate rider can be surprising. It wasn't unsafe, hell it was almost on a straight.....but it was surprising for me. Never had a bike within elbows reach before.

http://youtu.be/kmJ-g0VweFE?t=3m26s

With all that being said, I have confidence everyone will act on the safe side; if not out of the interest of others, out of self preservation. The only thing that scares me, is my own unpredictability.

The bottom line I try and preach to riders is smooth and consistent. You do those two things and usually, it is easy as pie on both ends of the passing ordeal.

I think as a track day rider advances, the ability to handle passing and being passed SHOULD advance with them. However, the thing I think happens is that the preaching of wider passing distances are instilled in their heads.

I am not saying we need to teach close passing, but if a rider gets into Advanced and is average to above average and is spooked or uncomfortable with close passing, they have obviously advanced their riding skills, but not their traffic management or passing abilities.

I watch a lot of track day guys be patient and while I think that is great, I think that they can also cause an accordion effect with others. Again, not saying teach the art of the stuff, but rather teach the art of passing and when, where, how needs to be done...

Dunno... I wanna hear what the track day guys think. The race guys are good food for thought as I think what they do at a track day is interesting. I like what Craig mentioned. I think he's very exact in the idea of close passes...

[RHill]

Yeah, but I can be smooth and consistent while overbreaking and turning down into a turn...crossing the fast lines. Unless someone has at least trailed me for an entire lap, they wont know I take turn 4 way wide and turn in late.

I agree, more track time will result in more comfort in passing and being passed, but we are still dealing with 3 discrete groups here. Jumping from novice to intermediate and intermediate to advance is a big change.

If someone spends weeks running a "fast" pace in intermediate(not being passed) where everyone is following the wingspan rule and generally passing on the outside....the first time someone runs up their inside in advance, this person will be shocked and possibly stand it up; no matter how long they stay in intermediate.

[OSUYZFR1]

I'll chime in as a track day rider. I really think it depends on the rider. I've had a coach pass me extremely close before but I didnt get spooked by it. I know when I pass I try to make them as safe as possible. I used to only pass coming out of a corner to prevent pissing someone off. With more experience now, I've gotten more aggressive and I'm able to judge closing speed better and where I may have held off going around a rider before I will stay in it and get around them clean. I'm mainly talking about the back straight at MO. When I come up on an erratic rider I still just wait and set them up on corner exit instead of passing coming into the corner. Sucks for lap times but I want to keep my leathers looking new.

[Disclaimer]

If you're getting passed on the track I feel bad for you son, I got 99 problems but laptimes ain't one.

[natedogg624]

I was hoping this was going to be a discussion on how to set up a good pass in a race situation. We'll have to discuss that later.

I have learned a lot about passing and getting passed from racing. The long story short is, in a track day situation there's no need to put an aggressive pass on anyone. And keep in mind, what you think is ok is likely to close for most trackday guys. Trust me, I was told what I thought was a super clean pass spoiled one of the intermediate riders during the "mixed" session after the last mock start.

This point caught my eye. What if you're in a situation where there won't be any easy passing areas for nearly half a lap?

Case in point: Grattan. There's minimal low-risk passing opportunities after the jump (cw) and I don't want to waste my time parading behind a guy who's slowing me up to take a higher risk pass later in the lap - so I'll pass him after the jump into the T5 right hander leading into the esses.

Most of them were clean, but reviewing the video I saw that I stood up one guy as he was starting to tip in.

To those that have been to Grattan, would this be considered an overly aggressive pass to a trackday guy?

[Revelstoker]

So, what you are saying is that guys on 1K bikes that park it in the corner are a menace and they should be banned?

Now, I am not in A where the rules are a bit different but from my I perspective, I think you forgot it was a track day and you were in race mode.

Practice what you teach us newbies:

Rider in front has the track,

No passing on the inside,

Hot pit and create some room.

I hear this a lot and even catch myself doing it. Only when I remind myself that it is a track day and there are 100 other things I could focus on vs trying to over take the guy in front of me am I able to get out of race mode. Take the hot pit, refocus and go out and have fun.

...I don't want to waste my time parading behind a guy who's slowing me up...

Edited October 26, 2012 by Revelstoker

[jbot]

I don't think we should pass at all. It hurts my feelings, kay?

[candybluzx6]

I dont mind or spooked when getting passed but i need to stop being so patient on passing other riders. I will wait a whole lap sometimes to make a pass.

[candybluzx6]

Also do i think instructors will work with a rider on closer passing?

[candybluzx6]

* do u think

[rusty]

No swet Brian, I never see you make bad pass on me or anybodyelse.if everybody ride and pass like you we will have lot more fun there.if somebody complaint about been pass too close go to intermediate.people need relies in advance you never know how many club or pro racers come to ride.they comfort level are lot bigger and what other think is too close for them they still give more distance compare to race.hold your line and don't worry how close they are,if they don't hit you and they don't cost you crash it's good pass.

[TSB67]

I think I'm more comfortable with close passes that most people my speed having raced various four-wheel vehicles competitively wheel-to-wheel. I bet alot of track day only riders out there connecting their cones are out of their comfort zone instantly when they need to compromise their line to accommodate someone passing, especially near the entrance of a corner. Instead of making a minor line adjustment they get spooked and stand it up. I think that right there is the spirit of the difference in passing rules between intermediate and advanced, but it happens in intermediate due to bad judgement, and not everybody in "advanced" really is.

[madcat6183]

This point caught my eye. What if you're in a situation where there won't be any easy passing areas for nearly half a lap?

Case in point: Grattan. There's minimal low-risk passing opportunities after the jump (cw) and I don't want to waste my time parading behind a guy who's slowing me up to take a higher risk pass later in the lap - so I'll pass him after the jump into the T5 right hander leading into the esses.

Most of them were clean, but reviewing the video I saw that I stood up one guy as he was starting to tip in.

To those that have been to Grattan, would this be considered an overly aggressive pass to a trackday guy?

If you truly stood a guy up, then in my opinion yes, it would be too aggressive, although if you showed him a wheel, then not so much, maybe he just didn't see it, or he saw a turtle on the track or a ground hog, seen both my time up there.

Although thinking back now, that turn isn't really anything crazy so I would have thought he would have seen your wheel, a lot of passing happens there, so also to be expected.

[TRMN8TR]

This point caught my eye. What if you're in a situation where there won't be any easy passing areas for nearly half a lap?

Case in point: Grattan. There's minimal low-risk passing opportunities after the jump (cw) and I don't want to waste my time parading behind a guy who's slowing me up to take a higher risk pass later in the lap - so I'll pass him after the jump into the T5 right hander leading into the esses.

Most of them were clean, but reviewing the video I saw that I stood up one guy as he was starting to tip in.

To those that have been to Grattan, would this be considered an overly aggressive pass to a trackday guy?

This:

Practice what you teach us newbies:

Rider in front has the track,

No passing on the inside,

Hot pit and create some room.

Take the hot pit, refocus and go out and have fun.

Although in Advanced I see people passing on the inside all the time and it's not really a problem.

The intermediate group is a cluster most of the time. It's probably the group with the biggest difference in speed/ability out on the track at the same time, and typically has the largest group as well. Glad I got out of there when I did!

[TRMN8TR]

We can discuss race passes! Not a problem.

Let's do it.

I don't know you personally and assume you don't know me entirely. So I'll fill you in a little on my skillz. I'm a novice racer, this year was my first full season of racing. Did a few Mini 20's last year but that was it. I've gotten a lot faster this year compared to last. I ran pretty consistent mid-high 1:13's at Nelson the last couple races there.

I've gotten into a couple situations where I'm behind a rider in a race that is running just a tiny bit slower than me and I can't get around him. It's usually a situation where they are consistently taking a very inside, defensive line, so my only option would be to pass on the outside. I tried to make the pass there a couple times but wound up just getting pushed wide and had to let them have the spot vs. getting ran off track. I then tried to set up a little better by staying back 3-4 bike lengths and letting my faster corner and exit speed catch them. This sort of worked, but I wound up catching back up and making up the 3-4 bike lengths I left between us but not enough to make the pass.

School me on any kind of techniques there might be on making a pass on someone that is slower, but only by a couple tenths/lap.

[nk140]

Let's do it.

I've gotten into a couple situations where I'm behind a rider in a race that is running just a tiny bit slower than me and I can't get around him. It's usually a situation where they are consistently taking a very inside, defensive line, so my only option would be to pass on the outside. I tried to make the pass there a couple times but wound up just getting pushed wide and had to let them have the spot vs. getting ran off track. I then tried to set up a little better by staying back 3-4 bike lengths and letting my faster corner and exit speed catch them. This sort of worked, but I wound up catching back up and making up the 3-4 bike lengths I left between us but not enough to make the pass.

School me on any kind of techniques there might be on making a pass on someone that is slower, but only by a couple tenths/lap.

This....I have found that this was my major hurdle this year. I would run with Bill up front after catching him after one of my patented crappy starts and I would get stuck behind him. I can run about 1 second quicker a lap than him (depending on the day) but I don't like to be a dick in a pass.

I found that I needed to study his lines to figure out how to pass him without it being too close. During a sprint race, you almost don't have enough time to study the other rider for a few laps.

[RidersDiscount]

Let's do it.

I don't know you personally and assume you don't know me entirely. So I'll fill you in a little on my skillz. I'm a novice racer, this year was my first full season of racing. Did a few Mini 20's last year but that was it. I've gotten a lot faster this year compared to last. I ran pretty consistent mid-high 1:13's at Nelson the last couple races there.

I've gotten into a couple situations where I'm behind a rider in a race that is running just a tiny bit slower than me and I can't get around him. It's usually a situation where they are consistently taking a very inside, defensive line, so my only option would be to pass on the outside. I tried to make the pass there a couple times but wound up just getting pushed wide and had to let them have the spot vs. getting ran off track. I then tried to set up a little better by staying back 3-4 bike lengths and letting my faster corner and exit speed catch them. This sort of worked, but I wound up catching back up and making up the 3-4 bike lengths I left between us but not enough to make the pass.

School me on any kind of techniques there might be on making a pass on someone that is slower, but only by a couple tenths/lap.

block pass on the inside. you won't make a lap time, but you'll get in front.