.308 or 30/06?

[ReconRat]

Care to place wager on that?

lol, stop it. Of course an Enfield can be put down. But it's still an example of a low cost bolt 30-06 to learn with. And lots of rifles won't match it. Too darn hard to find a decent one any more.

[kawi kid]

When you know how to run the mil dot it really is handy

[Gump]

FYI, this is my 400yard target that I can poke from the deck. Ill be setting the rest up this weekend out to 1,000 but I have to shoot them from a different angle from out in the field in order to get the distance and be safe.

Also need to put my wind flags on the top so I know whats going on out there.

As you can see from the distance behind the target, I have quite a distance I can reach out to. I limit it to 1200 yards so I have ~700 yard safety buffer behind the furthest target being shot at.

Side topic, What is that? 2 pieces of rebar? stuck in the ground with a bungee cord, holding a piece of steel?

[flounder]

Gump,

You pretty much got it. Its 2 pieces of rebar driven into the ground completely vertical, then I pull them towards each other and use a U-bolt to hold them in place. Makes it really easy to adjust the height of the target. Thats not a bungie cord but actually an old combine belt that I cut to length, drilled a hole in to mount. Here's how the rebar and target are hung. Because of the stiffness of the belt, it doesnt swing around or blow in the wind. I drilled in 10 in a row from 100 with the 308 just to test it and it worked better than I could have imagined.

It works really well but im going to hang it square instead of diamond to reduce the risk of richochets. I would like to find somewhere that has some old rubber conveyer belt that I could use and cut into 12-13" wide by 2-3ft long to use.

Edited November 10, 2012 by flounder

[Gump]

Pretty slick, cheap, and easy. I like it. Been looking for something to hang steel from lately and this beats welding a frame of scrap metal together.

[Pokey]

That is some good Appalachian engineering there!

[kiggy74]

http://www.jcsteeltargets.com/

These guys sell some good ar500 steel kits.

[kiggy74]

Just a few things you said which are not exactly true

A stock Remington 700 and a Barrett can land a bullet at 1000 yrds, but with either of those they are going to land in an area about the size of a car.

I printed a 5'inch group at 1K with my Stock Rem 700. Some shoot better than others but the size of a car im guessing was just a bit of an exaggeration on your part.

Federal Match 168gr HPBT .308 for about 20 for $20, and this is considered the gold standard in off the shelf match ammo for non-reloaders.

Actually the 175 is typically the go to as the 168HPBT tends to fall on its face after 800. With that being said, there was a slight re-design to some manufactures 168 bullet which has helped it a bit. So FGMM 175 or Black Hills 175 or if you want you can go with Southwest Ammo, Dallas Custom Reloads, etc.

Pretty good comments about Vortex. As far as optics go, either mil or moa, get what you like better, just make sure you get a scope where your reticle matches your turrets. i.e mil dot reticle with moa turrets gets to be somewhat annoying. Also, one youve shot FFP, you wont want SFP anymore. It makes life a lot easier. Of course this is 100% dependent on the type of shooting you do. For the average person, occasionally shooting and hunting, you'll never know the difference.

Seriously, google 'gold standard match 308 ammo' and tell me if you find anyone that refers to the 175gr. The 175gr is great for rifle with a high twist rate shooting at targets at the outer range of what a 308 is capable of. But for pure versatility and its ability to perform well in damn near anything out there, the 168 its great, not to mention cheaper than 175.

I tend to stay away from remanufactured ammo in my bolt gun. If it didn't come from a factory or my press i don't trust the consistency of it.

[vf1000ride]

I am still trying to figure out when Enfield ever made a .30-06 rifle that was cheap?

My M1917 Edystone (Enfield P14 copy) chambered in .30-06 was not a cheap gun. Now granted it does shoot very well out to some good distance. Basically if I can see it, I can hit it. My old warhorse with it's Iron sights, 2 groove rifling and almost 95 year old steel will get it done. Who needs a scope when the iron sights are graduated out to 1600 yards.

[walther_gsp]

Seriously, google 'gold standard match 308 ammo' and tell me if you find anyone that refers to the 175gr. The 175gr is great for rifle with a high twist rate shooting at targets at the outer range of what a 308 is capable of. But for pure versatility and its ability to perform well in damn near anything out there, the 168 its great, not to mention cheaper than 175.

I tend to stay away from remanufactured ammo in my bolt gun. If it didn't come from a factory or my press i don't trust the consistency of it.

It's the gold standard for 600y service rifle. It is not the gold standard for 1000y. Also, your google point is moot since the flipping ammo has gold in the name. 168 amax, 175 smk, 178 amax, 178 bthp hornady, 155 scenar and 155 palma are all better bullets for 1000 yard shooting in a 308. Plug the numbers into JBM and see for yourself.

[walther_gsp]

lol, stop it. Of course an Enfield can be put down. But it's still an example of a low cost bolt 30-06 to learn with. And lots of rifles won't match it. Too darn hard to find a decent one any more.

Then say it's an example of a low cost gun (I've only ever seen them in .303 british) that's decent to learn on (despite there being far better platforms to learn on), and not make silly claims that can easily be disproved on the range.

[walther_gsp]

A stock Remington 700 and a Barrett can land a bullet at 1000 yrds, but with either of those they are going to land in an area about the size of a car

This is a giant load of crap. If you've spent any time a TVP (which you have), then you should know it.

I've lost count how many times I've hit the 12x12 steel at 1000yards (and further) with my stock rem 700. Hell, I've busted my fair share of clays at 1000y and those are 4".

And for that matter, I've helped with several of the Newbie Shoots at TVP and watched very new shooters make hits at 1000 with stock remingtons and savages.

[fazer1sniper]

OH I'M IN!!

Back to the original question: .308 or 30-06

.308 hands down.... It's a simple question of tech. A .30 cal projectile fired from a rifle ( for agument a Remington 700 and lets say its a SMK 168 and rate of twist and barrel quality is the same) is going to have the SAME balistics due to the fact the 30-06 and .308 catrage case can handle the same pressures, the .308 just does it in shorter package. The benefit of the shoter cartage give you the ability to have a shorter, stiffer, more rigid action to hang that barrel on. This gives you more consistancecy and less barrel whip. So win to .308. As far as optic packages, bigger calibers and shots beyound 800 meters or so, differnt conversation. .300 WM, .338 Lapua, .408 Chey Tac, .416 Barret, .50 BMG and so on...... These rifle are the over the top rigs for special application, shots beyond a mile, anti-material or what ever. I've humped the .50's on missions and in hind site the .308 would have been fine. And my ass would have been less kicked. SO AGAIN, back to the question: .308..... and Go REMINGTON. 175 gain is great but harsher recoil, more pressure on the barrel and the 168's perform great out to 800 meters and somtimes father. Get your rig and shoot it. See what ammo it likes. All the math and algebra data is going to come with time, shooting, weather and learing your stick. Some like to be babyed and cleaned all the time, others are more slutty and love to be shot on foul bore. It's real easy to build multi thousand dolor rifles and take them out and blow hundreads in ammo and learn nothing. KISS principal (Keep It Simple Stupid), get your rifle, set it up, test ammo and learn it. Keep good dope in your data book and it will come together. Good Luck and good hunting. ...... And YES, I have a dirty desire for a .338 Lapua

[BadTrainDriver]

F1Sniper, what do you like as a platform for the .338?

[fazer1sniper]

I dont have one but if I was shopping I'd be looking at the AI's or something out of Remington Custom shop. But after Tuesday its a couple more AR's, more mags, lot's of ammo and enough chow to hold out till the zombies are gone. I'm gonna count on my .308... If hit can't hit and take out my target on a bad day, I got bigger problems than what's in the gun safe.

Seriously, going to a new rifle and new round takes alot of work and range time to really learn it. There's a ton of .308 dope out there, it's a good choice. I've been married to that cartrage longer than to the wife. And I can predict how it acts, unlike the wife.

[speedytriple]

Why the Remington over the savage? Or is that your personal preference? What advantages does the remington have over the savage?

[ReconRat]

Then say it's an example of a low cost gun (I've only ever seen them in .303 british) that's decent to learn on (despite there being far better platforms to learn on), and not make silly claims that can easily be disproved on the range.

Ok ok, I know. I should stop posting things from work. I don't think things through very well when I do that. A new Savage is probably cheaper than a used Enfield. And yes, .303, not many were rechambered or manufactured in 30-06.

Edited November 10, 2012 by ReconRat

[ReconRat]

I am still trying to figure out when Enfield ever made a .30-06 rifle that was cheap?

My M1917 Edystone (Enfield P14 copy) chambered in .30-06 was not a cheap gun. Now granted it does shoot very well out to some good distance. Basically if I can see it, I can hit it. My old warhorse with it's Iron sights, 2 groove rifling and almost 95 year old steel will get it done. Who needs a scope when the iron sights are graduated out to 1600 yards.

I've seen a few with low prices, even after the collector craziness hit. I was looking for an Eddystone also. One shop that saw me looking at one on the used rack, raised the price from around 300 to over 1000 before I could return and buy it! What I heard is that the changes to Canadian firearms laws caused most of them to be bought up and shipped to Canada for sale. Where the Enfield was always highly regarded in the first place. Prior to the changes, it wasn't too hard to find decent prices. Now it's impossible.

[ReconRat]

Why the Remington over the savage? Or is that your personal preference? What advantages does the remington have over the savage?

The Savage is basic, without a lot of opportunities to modify or improve the rifle. But people say it performs well. I think the Savage is very interesting.

On the other hand, some of the Winchesters were said to be suffering from problems in production a few years ago. The Winchester is the Remington design, and they were getting a bad reputation. Buyers were favoring the older production instead of the newer. I don't know if production shifted off shore or what. People are fickle, and it just might be an out of control trend in the market place. I didn't follow the story close enough to have details.

For slightly more cash, a basic Weatherby will probably have no complaints. And a lot of people like the Ruger also, but you need to see one first to decide.

Thirty years ago, I was right where you are now. Wanting a rifle that would be hunting/target/tactical. I wanted the Weatherby and should have bought one anyway, but it cost more. I settled for the Winchester (Remington). If Savage had it's current reputation back then, it would have been on the short list to consider.

edit: And I went with .308 over the 30-06 for a bunch of reasons, most of which people have given.

Edited November 10, 2012 by ReconRat

[aforrest4]

My long range rifle is an Winchester A-bolt action that shoots a 7mm Remington mag.

I need a better scope though. It came with a cheep one.

[flounder]

Seriously, google 'gold standard match 308 ammo' and tell me if you find anyone that refers to the 175gr. The 175gr is great for rifle with a high twist rate shooting at targets at the outer range of what a 308 is capable of. But for pure versatility and its ability to perform well in damn near anything out there, the 168 its great, not to mention cheaper than 175.

I tend to stay away from remanufactured ammo in my bolt gun. If it didn't come from a factory or my press i don't trust the consistency of it.

Uhm,, trust me.. 175 is the goto for "able to purchase-loaded" 308 for 1K shooting, I dont need to google it, Ive been doing this for awhile, and am comfortable standing my ground here.... no sense in arguing but Im right on this one, sorry,

You referenced snipershide in one of your other posts so feel free to hit it up and do some reading on your own..

175 runs just fine from 10-12 twist and everything in between. Savages run 10, Rem runs a 12 except for the 5R series which runs a 11.25. Most aftermarket customs run from a 10-11.25..

The problem with the 168 is that until a recent redesign the 168 goes subsonic around the 800 yard mark (depending on DA) and the 168 bullet design doesnt allow it to trancend to subsonic and maintain stability. the 175SMK does it and does it extremely well.

I use the SMK in more than 1 rifle and I have shot them to 1 mile and trust me, you wouldnt want to be standing at the 1 mile target, even on a miss because youll get a nice shave..

Walther, I think you were there when I did the 1 mile and put 4 shots in a row into ~15-18 inch group.. Was that you that day?

Edited November 11, 2012 by flounder

[flounder]

F1Sniper, what do you like as a platform for the .338?

Depends if youre going to buy factory or build and your budget.

Factory: Savage or Rem,

Technically Factory but really more of a Custom: AI

Custom: Pick a good smith, top quality components and youre GTG..

When you get to customs, you'll pick Action, trigger, stock, barrel twist, chamber dimensions designed around the bullet you'll be shooting,, and barrel length that is specifically designed around the exact bullet you'll be shooting (typically 250 or 300 grain Lapua Scenar for ELR (2400yards) your desired velocity, etc.

338 Lapua, 338 AI, 338 Edge, 338 Edge+P. etc. all are a variations of the 338 Lapua cartridge and are the top performers before stepping into the 338/408 category.

Edited November 11, 2012 by flounder

[The King]

By the way, best scope for the money is the SWFA SS10x. I paid $299 for mine and it is as good as my $1400 Leupold.

[flounder]

By the way, best scope for the money is the SWFA SS10x. I paid $299 for mine and it is as good as my $1400 Leupold.

Very very hard to beat the SWFA ss10x for the money.

Great choice.

[fazer1sniper]

Why the Remington over the savage? Or is that your personal preference? What advantages does the remington have over the savage?

When they took away my full auto and gave me a bolt gun when I was 19 it was a M24SWS (Remington 700 action). I have had my personal one in .308 short action since Febuary of 2000. Been upgraded as it wore and as money permited. Upgraded to an HS longrange stock, D.D.Ross M40a1 welded and trued 20 MOA scope mount and bottom metal, 40XB trigger, bla bla bla.... the Reminton can grow with you. The Winchester 70's are also damn good, I just shy away from the 3 bolt bedding sytem in favor to the 2 hex bolt bed on the Remington. Jut if you HAVE to take it out of the stock torque specs are easy to match in a tactical enviornment over the 3 bolt slot on the Winchesters if you get dirt and or vegitation in your trigger. Savage........ no personal experiance so I want to try not to bash them and the guys that run them. So yes, its more a personal preferance and the fact that the 700 has more guys making upgrades to it. And that barrel nut thing on the Savage just looks silly and doe not inspire confidence like the Winchester or Remington does as a well built percission rife platform. But I'm a Sniper, not a gunsmith or long range comp shooter so my opinion may be the one of the dirty Grunt in the room. Give my ass a rig simple enough for me to operate, good dope and location of the target.