.308 or 30/06?

[flounder]

for anyone that wants a .338 Lapua, Not 100% factory but not 100% custom either. Middle of the road.

here you go.

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=3681386#Post3681386

[kiggy74]

It's the gold standard for 600y service rifle. It is not the gold standard for 1000y. Also, your google point is moot since the flipping ammo has gold in the name. 168 amax, 175 smk, 178 amax, 178 bthp hornady, 155 scenar and 155 palma are all better bullets for 1000 yard shooting in a 308. Plug the numbers into JBM and see for yourself.

168 Federal Gold Metal Match with the Sierra Match King (SMK) 168 gr bullet. Works very well in almost any .308 rifle that it goes in = Gold Standard .308 match cartridge.

Your argument is moot, because I don't know anyone who will argue .308 is a gold standard caliber for 1000 yd shooting.

[kiggy74]

This is a giant load of crap. If you've spent any time a TVP (which you have), then you should know it.

I've lost count how many times I've hit the 12x12 steel at 1000yards (and further) with my stock rem 700. Hell, I've busted my fair share of clays at 1000y and those are 4".

And for that matter, I've helped with several of the Newbie Shoots at TVP and watched very new shooters make hits at 1000 with stock remingtons and savages.

I've hit lots of times with my .308 as well. I'm not saying its impossible. But if you are like me, and most other people that shoot there, we are content through 50 rounds at it and calling it a good day if we hit it 10 times. But to be first shot accurate and precise you gotta do better than that, and it ain't going to happen with most factory guns, Rem700 included. But for the OP, it probably doesn't matter.

My argument is that a factory Rem700 or any Barrett .50 is considered a precision weapon. Barrett .50s were never meant to be precision, and a most factory Rem700s don't even carry an accuracy guarantee. 1-2 MOA is about as good as you can expect.

Edited November 12, 2012 by kiggy74

[kiggy74]

Uhm,, trust me.. 175 is the goto for "able to purchase-loaded" 308 for 1K shooting, I dont need to google it, Ive been doing this for awhile, and am comfortable standing my ground here.... no sense in arguing but Im right on this one, sorry,

You referenced snipershide in one of your other posts so feel free to hit it up and do some reading on your own..

175 runs just fine from 10-12 twist and everything in between. Savages run 10, Rem runs a 12 except for the 5R series which runs a 11.25. Most aftermarket customs run from a 10-11.25..

The problem with the 168 is that until a recent redesign the 168 goes subsonic around the 800 yard mark (depending on DA) and the 168 bullet design doesnt allow it to trancend to subsonic and maintain stability. the 175SMK does it and does it extremely well.

I use the SMK in more than 1 rifle and I have shot them to 1 mile and trust me, you wouldnt want to be standing at the 1 mile target, even on a miss because youll get a nice shave..

Walther, I think you were there when I did the 1 mile and put 4 shots in a row into ~15-18 inch group.. Was that you that day?

I didn't qualify my statement regarding 168 SMKs with "1000 yrd shooting", alone. In fact, the OP said 500 yrds max.

I said it was the gold standard for all .308s. I stand behind that statement.

Keep mincing words, getting ridiculous.

[flounder]

http://www.jcsteeltargets.com/

These guys sell some good ar500 steel kits.

Big Dog Steel is in toledo. Great targets.

My targets are AR400 but Im not spending $100+ per stand on top of target price to leave out in a field where they could get stolen. Ive got about $12 in each on of the stands I made and they are cheap, easy to setup, difficult to remove without tools, etc.

[flounder]

I didn't qualify my statement regarding 168 SMKs with "1000 yrd shooting", alone. In fact, the OP said 500 yrds max.

I said it was the gold standard for all .308s. I stand behind that statement.

Keep mincing words, getting ridiculous.

You do realize the military uses 175 right?

Its NOT the gold standard.. Maybe its simple confusion on your part but lets forget the "gold standard" comment for the moment.

Can you get a good load with the 168, sure depending on which manufacture's 168 it is and design. Do most people who shoot LR use the 168. NOPE. They use 1 of the rounds that Walther already mentioned.

The 175SMK is the primary load for the majority of shooters that shoot past 700-800 yards.

Im done arguing with you but youve had 2 separate people tell you youre wrong and youre still arguing.

Remember, its not just about weight, 155, 168, 175, 180, 208, etc.

Its about the shape of the bullet and do they transition from supersonic to subsonic while maintaining stability.. Some shapes do, Some dont, thats physics..

Those that I have personal experience with that do.

155 Lapua Scenar

168 Hornady Amax

175 SMK

Those that dont.

The older 168 Hornadys (Not Amax)

The reason your getting shit about it is because up until about a 1-2 years ago, one of the only 168 grain 308 bullets that would transition was the hornady amax, there are some new 168 weight versions by some manufactures that work well but it has never been the goto bullet and anyone that knows anything about them, has used them, experience, etc knows they had a problem.

If you stand behind your statement so much, go ahead and start a thread on Snipershide asking for an answer. IF you prove me wrong ill give a formal apology, if youre proved wrong, you do the same.

[walther_gsp]

I've hit lots of times with my .308 as well. I'm not saying its impossible. But if you are like me, and most other people that shoot there, we are content through 50 rounds at it and calling it a good day if we hit it 10 times. But to be first shot accurate and precise you gotta do better than that, and it ain't going to happen with most factory guns, Rem700 included. But for the OP, it probably doesn't matter.

My argument is that a factory Rem700 or any Barrett .50 is considered a precision weapon. Barrett .50s were never meant to be precision, and a most factory Rem700s don't even carry an accuracy guarantee. 1-2 MOA is about as good as you can expect.

10/50 @1000? Damn, I don't have standards that low.

Most rem700 heavy barreled rifles ( sps tact, sps varmint ,5r, senders,etc..) are capable of sub moa with match ammo. You are just flat out wrong.

[walther_gsp]

I didn't qualify my statement regarding 168 SMKs with "1000 yrd shooting", alone. In fact, the OP said 500 yrds max.

I said it was the gold standard for all .308s. I stand behind that statement.

Keep mincing words, getting ridiculous.

You went wrong with yout statement with the word ALL. WAS is appropriate.

[walther_gsp]

you do realize the military uses 175 right?

Its not the gold standard.. Maybe its simple confusion on your part but lets forget the "gold standard" comment for the moment.

Can you get a good load with the 168, sure depending on which manufacture's 168 it is and design. Do most people who shoot lr use the 168. Nope. They use 1 of the rounds that walther already mentioned.

The 175smk is the primary load for the majority of shooters that shoot past 700-800 yards.

Im done arguing with you but youve had 2 separate people tell you youre wrong and youre still arguing.

Remember, its not just about weight, 155, 168, 175, 180, 208, etc.

Its about the shape of the bullet and do they transition from supersonic to subsonic while maintaining stability.. Some shapes do, some dont, thats physics..

Those that i have personal experience with that do.

155 lapua scenar

168 hornady amax

175 smk

those that dont.

The older 168 hornadys (not amax)

the reason your getting shit about it is because up until about a 1-2 years ago, one of the only 168 grain 308 bullets that would transition was the hornady amax, there are some new 168 weight versions by some manufactures that work well but it has never been the goto bullet and anyone that knows anything about them, has used them, experience, etc knows they had a problem.

If you stand behind your statement so much, go ahead and start a thread on snipershide asking for an answer. If you prove me wrong ill give a formal apology, if youre proved wrong, you do the same.

qft

[kiggy74]

Here you go...

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2012/07/jim-barrett/reloading-a-costbenefit-analysis-part-two-2/

"168 grain Sierra Match King bullet – the gold standard of match grade ammo."

His words, not mine. I'll keep arguing as long as you two keep being wrong.

[flounder]

Here you go...

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2012/07/jim-barrett/reloading-a-costbenefit-analysis-part-two-2/

"168 grain Sierra Match King bullet – the gold standard of match grade ammo."

His words, not mine. I'll keep arguing as long as you two keep being wrong.

Wow, Thats your article. You reference snipershide, then you try and pull that site off as your "gold reference" ..(Rem 168 Match.. really!) I dont even need to put anymore time into this thread because those that are educated just realized that you proved that you dont know what your talking about. But hey, at least you can quote 1 article that is a paragraph long from a site that doesnt do a thing in long range shooting.

What you just did was the equivalent of giving a Volvo owner the repair manual for a 79 pinto wagon and actually thinking it makes sense.

Thank you for that, you saved me a lot of time.

Ive tried to give you some slack but you just wont give up. Try this forget the words" gold standard match 308 ammo" and do some research on ammo, and ballistics and actually learn something and learn what ammo is best at distance, not what ammo has a stupid title that you want to stick with.. Again maybe its confusion or you just cant represent your thoughts well but say we call the 168 "the gold standard match 308 ammo" That doesnt mean anything about how it performs. We are telling you, and anyone that shoots past 700-800 yards with a 308 will tell you that most 168 rounds (especially up until about 1-2 years ago.) destabilize and fall on their face around 750-800 yards depending on DA. FYI, DA stands for Density Altitude..

Edited November 13, 2012 by flounder

[walther_gsp]

Here you go...

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2012/07/jim-barrett/reloading-a-costbenefit-analysis-part-two-2/

"168 grain Sierra Match King bullet – the gold standard of match grade ammo."

His words, not mine. I'll keep arguing as long as you two keep being wrong.

Do a search on snipershide, for every one post saying 168smk is the way to go, you'll find 13 posts saying 175 smk or 178 amex.

FGMM is considered the standard for commercial match ammo, but the 168 is far from the standard for 308

[walther_gsp]

http://demigodllc.com/articles/practical-long-range-rifle-shooting-equipment/?p=4

Here is an article from Zak at Thunderbeast. Please note, the sections on rifles and ammo refute your claims on bullet selection and accuracy of factory Remington rifles.

[Pokey]

For measuring the penis, damn this thread has become a contest. :trophy:

[flounder]

For measuring the penis, damn this thread has become a contest. :trophy:

Inaccurate advice is being given and it drives me crazy when that happens, thats all.

Im just a little guy.

[fazer1sniper]

Hey. I contunue to run the 168gn. Partially becase I have alot of dope with it and mostly becase its Department -FBI task force ammo for the job. I have alot of round out with the 175 but not so much out of this rifle compared to the old M24. 168 is an awesome load. The 175 does do some things better depending on your rifle. I've been doing this long enough to be forced to us M118SB, prior to the M118LR (175SMK's). You wanna talk about a sub par ammo? Look at the old 118SB( Special Ball) It was only "special" in a short school bus kind of way. Getting away from Ball ammo to SMK's was a big plus, 168 or the 175's. If you do have a .308 stick, Test ammo! GI or "Gold Metal" ammo might be the ticket. Weight, who makes it, if you load your own ( I can't; liability issue) or try other comercial loads, find what it likes so shoot. Same way we all change tires on our bikes. What works for one bike/rider may not work for the next. Same goes for shooter and his rifle.

[Pokey]

Inaccurate advice is being given and it drives me crazy when that happens, thats all.

Im just a little guy.

HA.....was just trying to break up any tension, heck I have learned allot from this thread. I must admit though, I am now thinking that the .243 would be the best choice for me and what I would more than likely be doing with that caliber.

Edited November 13, 2012 by Pokey

[speedytriple]

Damn peanut butter rule +rep to pokey LOL!

[speedytriple]

Should I go with one of these and a tasco scope?

[speedytriple]

Come december I am just gonna take Walthers with me to fin and have him help me pick a bolt gun off the shelf? You in Tom?

[walther_gsp]

Hey. I contunue to run the 168gn. Partially becase I have alot of dope with it and mostly becase its Department -FBI task force ammo for the job. I have alot of round out with the 175 but not so much out of this rifle compared to the old M24. 168 is an awesome load. The 175 does do some things better depending on your rifle. I've been doing this long enough to be forced to us M118SB, prior to the M118LR (175SMK's). You wanna talk about a sub par ammo? Look at the old 118SB( Special Ball) It was only "special" in a short school bus kind of way. Getting away from Ball ammo to SMK's was a big plus, 168 or the 175's. If you do have a .308 stick, Test ammo! GI or "Gold Metal" ammo might be the ticket. Weight, who makes it, if you load your own ( I can't; liability issue) or try other comercial loads, find what it likes so shoot. Same way we all change tires on our bikes. What works for one bike/rider may not work for the next. Same goes for shooter and his rifle.

Yea, but correct me if I'm wrong, you're an LE sniper now. Most of your stuff is 150-200y and under right?

[walther_gsp]

Come december I am just gonna take Walthers with me to fin and have him help me pick a bolt gun off the shelf? You in Tom?

Sure thing. Next time, just call me and we'll save ourselves a silly thread

[flounder]

Hey. I contunue to run the 168gn. Partially becase I have alot of dope with it and mostly becase its Department -FBI task force ammo for the job. I have alot of round out with the 175 but not so much out of this rifle compared to the old M24. 168 is an awesome load. The 175 does do some things better depending on your rifle. I've been doing this long enough to be forced to us M118SB, prior to the M118LR (175SMK's). You wanna talk about a sub par ammo? Look at the old 118SB( Special Ball) It was only "special" in a short school bus kind of way. Getting away from Ball ammo to SMK's was a big plus, 168 or the 175's. If you do have a .308 stick, Test ammo! GI or "Gold Metal" ammo might be the ticket. Weight, who makes it, if you load your own ( I can't; liability issue) or try other comercial loads, find what it likes so shoot. Same way we all change tires on our bikes. What works for one bike/rider may not work for the next. Same goes for shooter and his rifle.

Agreed. I guess the real point I was trying to make was that if youre just getting in the LR shooting game, go with a round that will transition and save yourself a lot of time having to work up another load and spend more money down the road. If your gun likes the FGMM 175 or BlackHills 175 and youre not reloading, then stick with one of those.

If youre reloading, I'd say stick with the 175 SMK, 178Amax, 155 Lapua Scenar, or 168 Amax depending on what you want to spend per round.

Fazer, I was always a bit baffled by the liability issue surrounding handloads. I understand it and at the same time I dont. They will let you use a suppressor which can change your POI +-3" up/down and +-2" LR but they wont let you handload ammo that will give you better accuracy? And if Im not mistaken there are some rules around adjusting triggers as well?

Edited November 13, 2012 by flounder

[r1crusher]

HA.....was just trying to break up any tension, heck I have learned allot from this thread. I must admit though, I am now thinking that the .243 would be the best choice for me and what I would more than likely be doing with that caliber.

Screw Tom! I have a decently setup .243 I might consider letting go. I know it's def. good for 330+ yards.

[walther_gsp]

Screw Tom! I have a decently setup .243 I might consider letting go. I know it's def. good for 330+ yards.

With the right bullet, .243 is good for 1000+ yards. You'll pretty much have to handload though.

Look at the 115gr DTAC, and the 105-107 gr bullets from Sierra (SMK) Berger (VLD) and Hornady (AMAX)

Edited November 13, 2012 by walther_gsp