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Here We Go Again, Florida Man Shoots and Kills Young Man Over Loud Music


magley64

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So what if you confront someone, punch them, and instead of punching you back, they just pull out a gun and shoot you? Was that legitimate self defense?

Or what if there was a step in between where you punch someone, they pull a knife, and then you shoot them? What responsibility should you have for starting the altercation?

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So what if you confront someone, punch them, and instead of punching you back, they just pull out a gun and shoot you? Was that legitimate self defense?

Or what if there was a step in between where you punch someone, they pull a knife, and then you shoot them? What responsibility should you have for starting the altercation?

1. Should've thrown some elbows

2. Shouldn't be bringing a knife to a gun fight

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I also think there is a difference between 1 or 2 shots to protect myself and firing 8 or 9. Granted I've never been in a situation where I've needed to fire a gun at someone so maybe I dont know, but I would think 8 or 9 shoots would be a bit excessive.

It's very dynamic. There are situations where 8 or 9 is fine and 2 is excessive. You shoot until the threat stops - and handguns usually don't produce immediate incapacitation. If you take 1 or 2 shots then pause to evaluate if his injuries are "going to incapacitate him shortly" then you're likely to get killed. Even a man shot through the heart can still kill you - he has enough time left in the oxygen already in his bloodstream to stab or shoot you.

"Excessive" force in a true defense situation (where the first shot was justifiable) would be when any of the subsequent shots were punitive in nature, not preventative. These would be any shots where the person is already incapacitated, or shots where you have had reasonable time to determine that the person has ended their threat against you.

Bearing in mind that in real life a gunshot from a handgun is often not even felt at first due to adrenaline... Bearing in mind that the person you are shooting at may show no signs of being hit for seconds, or minutes... Bearing in mind that you don't even know if your rounds are hitting the guy, never mind "are they effective shots"... And then finally considering you can put 8 or 9 rounds downrange in just a few seconds.... With all this considered it is not unusual for 8 or 9 shots can to be fired at a person before they become incapacitated, for that to be totally justifiable.

There is a famous video out there of a robbery where the store owner shoots one of two armed robbers. The shot man jumped back over the counter, pulled his shirt up to look at the wound, then ran away. He died hours later. Would it have been unreasonable to shoot him a second time? He was still 100% mobile and deadly until he finally bled out from being gutshot. He could easily have stood and continued shooting.

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So what if you confront someone, punch them, and instead of punching you back, they just pull out a gun and shoot you? Was that legitimate self defense?

Or what if there was a step in between where you punch someone, they pull a knife, and then you shoot them? What responsibility should you have for starting the altercation?

Totality of circumstances. If you are a frail 97 year old man and get punched by a linebacker-sized person then shooting him may be justified as your only means of defense.

If you punch someone and they use deadly force against you then tough. you started it. Run. You cannot win this. If you shoot them and survive you are going to go to jail. Learn to not punch people.

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So what if you confront someone, punch them, and instead of punching you back, they just pull out a gun and shoot you? Was that legitimate self defense?

Or what if there was a step in between where you punch someone, they pull a knife, and then you shoot them? What responsibility should you have for starting the altercation?

A knife is not a "step between" a punch and a gun. There is force, and there is deadly force. Deadly force is any force likely to cause serious injury or death. A knife and a gun are on the same level.

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It's very dynamic. There are situations where 8 or 9 is fine and 2 is excessive. You shoot until the threat stops - and handguns usually don't produce immediate incapacitation. If you take 1 or 2 shots then pause to evaluate if his injuries are "going to incapacitate him shortly" then you're likely to get killed. Even a man shot through the heart can still kill you - he has enough time left in the oxygen already in his bloodstream to stab or shoot you.

"Excessive" force in a true defense situation (where the first shot was justifiable) would be when any of the subsequent shots were punitive in nature, not preventative. These would be any shots where the person is already incapacitated, or shots where you have had reasonable time to determine that the person has ended their threat against you.

Bearing in mind that in real life a gunshot from a handgun is often not even felt at first due to adrenaline... Bearing in mind that the person you are shooting at may show no signs of being hit for seconds, or minutes... Bearing in mind that you don't even know if your rounds are hitting the guy, never mind "are they effective shots"... And then finally considering you can put 8 or 9 rounds downrange in just a few seconds.... With all this considered it is not unusual for 8 or 9 shots can to be fired at a person before they become incapacitated, for that to be totally justifiable.

There is a famous video out there of a robbery where the store owner shoots one of two armed robbers. The shot man jumped back over the counter, pulled his shirt up to look at the wound, then ran away. He died hours later. Would it have been unreasonable to shoot him a second time? He was still 100% mobile and deadly until he finally bled out from being gutshot. He could easily have stood and continued shooting.

Right, totally get that. But in those situations there both sides shooting. This situation only had one side shooting.

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Asking someone what time it is is different than giving them shit about their loud music. He' date=' allegedly, started an altercation while armed. In Ohio, that's a big 'no-no'.

If someone attacks you because you wanted to know the time, that is legitimate cause for self-defense. If I call you a fucking cunt and you attack me and I shoot you...my ass is responsible.[/quote']

Do you have a cite for him "giving them shit"? Or is that as assumption? How do you know he didn't ask them politely and they overreacted?

I don't know. That's why I'm not making assumptions.

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Right, totally get that. But in those situations there both sides shooting. This situation only had one side shooting.

We're not talking about a protracted gun battle here. If I see a shotgun barrel facing me then I'll evaluate the effectiveness of my first shots when I have to stop to change the mag. I ain't pausing until the threat stops, or the mag runs out.

It IS possible that there WAS a shotgun - and that it was disposed of after the shooting.

It IS possible that there WAS NO shotgun - and that the shooter saw something he through was a shotgun.

It IS possible that there WAS NO shotgun - and that the shooter is just a murderer making up a false claim to try to escape justice.

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We're not talking about a protracted gun battle here. If I see a shotgun barrel facing me then I'll evaluate the effectiveness of my first shots when I have to stop to change the mag. I ain't pausing until the treats stops, or the mag runs out.

It IS possible that there WAS a shotgun - and that it was disposed of after the shooting.

It IS possible that there WAS NO shotgun - and that the shooter saw something he through was a shotgun.

It IS possible that there WAS NO shotgun - and that the shooter is just a murderer making up a false claim to try to escape justice.

and again I see your point. Thank you.

Now for my other question, if there was a shotgun, why didnt they use it?

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and again I see your point. Thank you.

Now for my other question, if there was a shotgun, why didnt they use it?

Possibilities:

- Not loaded

- Not real

- Chamber empty

- Safety catch on

- Didn't know how

- The guy was quicker on the draw and they stopped any attempt at using the shotgun, but being inside a car they could not retreat.

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A knife is not a "step between" a punch and a gun. There is force, and there is deadly force. Deadly force is any force likely to cause serious injury or death. A knife and a gun are on the same level.

As expected, I disagree...

Knife is an escalation from a fist fight. gun is an escalation further.

You aren't prohibited from owning knives if you are a felon.

Just because something CAN cause death does not mean it should be classified as a deadly weapon...

I could kill someone with a pillow, but that doesn't mean that it is a reasonable response to shoot someone for bopping you with a pillow.

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Do you have a cite for him "giving them shit"? Or is that as assumption? How do you know he didn't ask them politely and they overreacted?

I don't know. That's why I'm not making assumptions.

I have a pretty large pool of responses to loud music in my personal experience. probably 80% of responses are rude/angry/confrontational

20% of people who requested that I change the volume level of my music were polite about it.

Just running the odds, he was probably rude/confrontational about it...

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Just because something CAN cause death does not mean it should be classified as a deadly weapon...

Give me a second to think about that...

head.gif

Before I say something insulting about your intelligence, let me clarify...

If an item can cause death, and is used as a weapon, then it is a deadly weapon.

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As expected, I disagree...

Knife is an escalation from a fist fight. gun is an escalation further.

You aren't prohibited from owning knives if you are a felon.

Just because something CAN cause death does not mean it should be classified as a deadly weapon...

I could kill someone with a pillow, but that doesn't mean that it is a reasonable response to shoot someone for bopping you with a pillow.

:confused::nono::wtf::rolleyes:

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If an item can cause death, and is used as a weapon, then it is a deadly weapon.

well if you didn't like the pillow example, a tablespoon of water is deadly, so you should open fire on anyone who tosses a water balloon your way, or shoots you with a super soaker.

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Asking someone what time it is is different than giving them shit about their loud music. He' date=' allegedly, started an altercation while armed. In Ohio, that's a big 'no-no'.

If someone attacks you because you wanted to know the time, that is legitimate cause for self-defense. If I call you a fucking cunt and you attack me and I shoot you...my ass is responsible.[/quote']

Your example makes too much sense, there are some however that just can't handle that.

:bitchfight:

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I just want clarification as to why a knife and a gun are on the same level of force, but a pillow and a squirt gun and a fist are not, when any one of them can be deadly given the right situation, application, and intent.

Clearly Skittles and Snapple are deadly weapons.

Edited by magley64
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