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chevysoldier

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  4. We're all naive, living in a fantasy world

    in Dumpster

    Posted

    I love when she does the video scenario and she draws and stands still. It doesn't matter how fast you are, you will never outdraw on a bad guy. Her "scenario" proves nothing other than that she will increase the likelihood of getting shot while she stands out in the open.

    The CHL classes are not nearly enough training for a critical incident. The only thing they usually teach you is the rules and to make sure you can put rounds on a person sized target at 21 or so feet. You need to understand and experience tunnel vision, loss of fine motor skills, flight mode, paying attention to what's behind the threat (innocent bystanders), dealing with the noise of screams and firing, searching for cover and concealment, etc.

    Even the guy that had firearms training couldn't think about finding a spot of cover and to engage the threat at the same time. Having a piece of plastic or paper in your wallet doesn't mean you're gonna be worth a damn when shit hits the fan if you don't train first.

  17. Open Carry vs. CCW

    in Dumpster

    Posted

    ORC9.68 Right to bear arms - challenge to law.

    (A) The individual right to keep and bear arms, being a fundamental individual right that predates the United States Constitution and Ohio Constitution, and being a constitutionally protected right in every part of Ohio, the general assembly finds the need to provide uniform laws throughout the state regulating the ownership, possession, purchase, other acquisition, transport, storage, carrying, sale, or other transfer of firearms, their components, and their ammunition. Except as specifically provided by the United States Constitution, Ohio Constitution, state law, or federal law, a person, without further license, permission, restriction, delay, or process, may own, possess, purchase, sell, transfer, transport, store, or keep any firearm, part of a firearm, its components, and its ammunition.

    (B) In addition to any other relief provided, the court shall award costs and reasonable attorney fees to any person, group, or entity that prevails in a challenge to an ordinance, rule, or regulation as being in conflict with this section.

    © As used in this section:

    (1) The possession, transporting, or carrying of firearms, their components, or their ammunition include, but are not limited to, the possession, transporting, or carrying, openly or concealed on a person’s person or concealed ready at hand, of firearms, their components, or their ammunition.

    (2) “Firearm” has the same meaning as in section 2923.11 of the Revised Code.

    (D) This section does not apply to either of the following:

    (1) A zoning ordinance that regulates or prohibits the commercial sale of firearms, firearm components, or ammunition for firearms in areas zoned for residential or agricultural uses;

    (2) A zoning ordinance that specifies the hours of operation or the geographic areas where the commercial sale of firearms, firearm components, or ammunition for firearms may occur, provided that the zoning ordinance is consistent with zoning ordinances for other retail establishments in the same geographic area and does not result in a de facto prohibition of the commercial sale of firearms, firearm components, or ammunition for firearms in areas zoned for commercial, retail, or industrial uses.

    Effective Date: 03-14-2007

  18. Open Carry vs. CCW

    in Dumpster

    Posted

    Cont

    Surprise: Probably the most common condemnation of open carry comes from the armchair tacticians who believe it‟s better to have the element of surprise in a criminal encounter. Although this was touched on in the previous paragraph about deterrence, I‟ll expand on it specifically here because there are some important truths you need to consider before you lean too heavily on this false support. Surprise as a defensive tactic is often based on unrealistic or ill-thought out scenarios, and seems to exist only in the minds of concealed carry firearms proponents. The circumstance where several street toughs surround and taunt you for a while before robbing you, like in some Charles Bronson movie, is not realistic; the mugger wants to get in and out as fast as possible. In most cases you will have only seconds to realize what‟s happening, make a decision, and react. Imagine you‟re walking along the sidewalk when two gangsta looking teenagers suddenly appear at the corner coming in the opposite direction. You have only seconds to react if their intent was to victimize you. Do you draw your concealed firearm now or wait until there‟s an actual visible threat? If they are just on their way to church and you pull a gun on them, you are the criminal and you will likely forever lose your firearms rights for such a foolish action. If you don‟t draw and they pull a knife or pistol when they‟re just a couple steps away, your only options are draw (if you think you can) or comply. Imagine staring at the shiny blade of a knife being held by a very nervous and violent mugger, three inches from your or your wife‟s throat and having to decide whether or not you have time to draw from concealment. The element of surprise may not do you any good; in fact the only surprising thing that might happen is that your concealed carry pistol gets taken along with your wallet. The thug will later get a good

    chuckle with his buddies about how you brought a gun to a knife fight. The simple truth is that while surprise is a monumentally superior tactical maneuver, it is exclusively an offensive action, not a defensive one. What many internet commandos call „defensive surprise‟ is nothing more than damage control, a last ditch effort to fight your way back out of a dangerous situation. I am not aware of any army that teaches using surprise as a defense against attack. No squad of soldiers goes on patrol with their weapons hidden so that they can „surprise‟ the enemy should they walk into an ambush. It Will Get Stolen: Another common criticism of open carry is that the firearm itself will be the target of theft, prompting a criminal to attack simply to get the gun from you. Like the previous example of being the first one shot in a robbery, above, this is despite the fact that there is no credible evidence it happens. It also blindly ignores the more obvious fact that anything you possess can make you the target of a crime, be it a car, a watch, or even a female companion (girlfriend, wife, or daughter). Crooks commonly steal for only one of two reasons; to get something you have that they want, or to get something that you have so they can sell it and buy something they want. I don‟t claim it could never happen; just that it‟s so remote a possibility that it doesn‟t warrant drastic alterations to our self defense strategies. If you believe otherwise, leave your wife, children, watch, sunglasses, jewelry, and cell phone at home, hop into your Pinto wagon, and head out to do your thing. Very often, someone critical of open carry will cite some example of a uniformed police officer whose gun was taken by a violent criminal, and yes, this does indeed happen. The argument, however, breaks down when they assume the officer was targeted solely to steal his firearm. What is more likely is that the officer was targeted merely for being a police officer and the gun was stolen as a byproduct of the attack. More often, the officer‟s gun is taken during the struggle to get the suspect into custody due to an entirely unrelated matter. However, let‟s suppose, for argument, that a police officer really was attacked just to get his firearm. What actions did the police department take to prevent it from reoccurring? Did they demand that their officers carry concealed? No, of course not. You should, like the police, prioritize your defense strategy for the most likely threat first, and the least likely last. It Scares People: One other statement against open carry I hear is that it damages public perception of firearms owners, or that by carrying openly we are not being good ambassadors to the public. While there are some people who have a genuine fear of firearms, due either to some horrible past experience or anti-gun indoctrination, the majority of people are either indifferent to them or quite fascinated by them. I‟ve never kept track of the dozens of fellow citizens I‟ve encountered who have marveled at the idea of open carry, but I do know exactly how many have expressed displeasure at it; one. People are scared of many things for many reasons; however, pretending those things do not exist only perpetuates the fear. Someone who is disturbed by open carry is going to be every bit as disturbed by concealed carry. The only effective way to overcome a fear is to come to the intellectual realization that the phobia is based on emotion and not on fact. By being a firsthand witness that a firearm was carried responsibly and peaceably, and wasn‟t being carried in the commission of a crime, one who was apprehensive about firearms discovers their fear is not fact based, but emotional. Thus, open carry can be a very effectual way of helping to overcome the

    emotionally based fear of the firearm. After all, you‟d be much more likely to believe in ghosts if you saw one rather than if you listened to a ghost story around a campfire. In other words, we give significantly more credibility to the things we experience than we do to the things we hear. The bottom line is that this argument is made by people who don‟t, cant, or haven‟t carried openly; those of us who do so on a regular basis have an entirely different experience. I’m Not Comfortable Carrying Openly: This is really the only reasonable argument against open carry for an individual. We all have a comfort zone for any aspect of our lives and we prefer to stay within that comfort zone. We all agree that it‟s better to be armed and never need the firearm than it is to need it and not have it. There is a point where concealing your firearm becomes so problematic, due to conditions like temperature or comfort, that some choose to either leave it behind or carry in such a way that it would be difficult or impossible to draw it quickly. If it takes me five or six seconds to draw my firearm from deep concealment and I had sufficient time before hand to actually do so, I would prefer to use that five or six seconds to avoid the entire encounter. I‟m glad we have concealed carry laws in most of the states; it empowers and protects not only us but the general public through the offset deterrent effect. Some of us, however, choose the more direct deterrent effect of open carry. Conclusion No, open carry is not the be-all-end-all of self defense any more than concealed carry is. The purpose of this essay is not to convince you to carry a firearm openly, but to merely point out the reasoning I used to determine that it is often the best option for me. If you think otherwise, please feel free to write an essay of your own outlining the reasoning you used. I would suggest that you avoid the intellectual mistake of emphasizing rare or unlikely defense scenarios that many of us will never experience. I believe one should prioritize for the most likely threat, not the least likely threat. I don‟t put Hollywood style bank robberies high on my threat list because I rarely go into a bank and those types of robberies are very rare themselves. I live in the most crime riddled city in the northwest; the most likely threat here is some young male with a knife or gun trying to carjack me or mug me on the street, in the park, or in a parking lot. With this knowledge I build my personal self protection plan based on that manner of attack. This may not suit you, especially if you live in Hollywood.

    http://www.usacarry.com/forums/open-carry-discussion/7230-open-carry-argument.html

  19. Open Carry vs. CCW

    in Dumpster

    Posted

    More

    The Open Carry Argument My primary goal when I‟m out and about, besides whatever I went out and about to do, is to go about peaceably and not be the victim of a violent crime. To that end I carry a firearm whenever I go out as well as follow all the other standard safety practices like maintaining situational awareness, staying out of high crime areas, and avoiding confrontation. I also have a larger overall goal of making it through my life without shooting anyone. Simply put, I don‟t want to be responsible, legally or morally, for another‟s death. Those two goals might appear at first blush to be mutually exclusive, and with concealed carry it would be a difficult set of goals to realize. Carry of any firearm or other weapon for defensive purposes is a solemn responsibility. Those of us that do (openly or concealed) are mortified by the idea, constantly promoted by the pacifists, that our behavior is more reckless because we are armed. In other words, because we carry a handgun we take more risks than we would if we were unarmed. While it would be dishonest to claim we are all responsible gun owners, it is my belief that the vast majority of us are. Regardless of what or how you carry, you need to come to the realization that you are setting yourself up to lose. Whenever you are placed in a defensive situation, you will always lose; it‟s only the degree of loss that‟s negotiable. Ayoob hits on this in his book, In the Gravest Extreme. He suggests tossing the robber a small wad of cash and moving off, even if you could prevail with a weapon. There‟s a very good reason for this. Regardless of how skilled you are at drawing your weapon, you are going to lose. It may be only a minor loss, like being very shaken up and not sleeping well for a few days, or it may be a major loss, like becoming fertilizer, or (most likely) it may be somewhere in-between, but you always lose. Your life will not be the same even if you prevail. Carrying a concealed firearm presents to a criminal that I am unarmed. Every study I‟ve ever read, not most but every study, says that criminals will avoid an armed person or home when selecting a victim. That only makes sense, right? Robbers, rapists, or carjackers might be dumb and opportunistic, but they have the same instinctual sense of self preservation we all have. Hyenas don‟t attack lions to steal the gazelle the lions have just killed. It‟s all about risk management; are the potential gains (a tasty gazelle dinner) worth the risks (pain and damage the lion‟s teeth will cause), and does the hyena really need to test the lion to figure out the answer? No, the hyena can see the lion‟s teeth and knows to stay well clear. Deterrent Value: When I‟m carrying concealed I feel like my „teeth‟ are hidden, and thus of no real deterrent value. If I appear unarmed then I am unarmed in the eyes of the robber, I appear as easy a target as almost anyone else out on the street. My probability of being a victim of a crime, violent or otherwise, is completely unchanged by the fact that I have hidden beneath my shirt the means to defend myself. My goal, however, is not to be a victim in the first place, remember? I don‟t want to be a victim that fought back successfully and triumphed; I prefer to not be victimized at all. I recognize that there are some people who (think they) want to be victimized so they can whip out their concealed firearm and „surprise‟ the mugger; that is, in my opinion, foolish immaturity. Concealed carry is good; it throws a wrench in the works for criminals who might see the teeming masses as a smorgasbord of financial gain. This deterrent effect is, nonetheless, indirect and often nil. At some point the thug will weigh the risks vs. the gains; is his current desperation for money/drugs/booze/gold grille greater than the gamble that one of those people might be carrying a gun? If he decides to play the odds, which helped along with surprise tip the scale in his favor, he will attack. Will his attack allow enough time for me to draw my

    concealed firearm to affect a defense? Maybe, but then again, maybe not. Remember, I don’t want to be a victim and I don’t want to shoot anyone. So how do I realize both goals; or how do I make them inclusive? I can do that through open carry. By making it clear and obvious that I am armed, that I have teeth, I tip the risk scale to the point that the criminal‟s gains are far outweighed by the risk. There is no ambiguity when the thug is doing his risk assessment, there‟s something right there in plain sight that can quickly and painfully change or terminate his life. You may not think his life has much value, but as I mentioned before, he has the same sense of self preservation as any other living creature and to him it‟s every bit as valuable as yours is to you. It would be foolish to ignore this indisputable fact when you develop your overall tactical strategy. The Five Stages of Violent Crime I am a firm believer in this defense theology and urge anyone who carries a firearm for protection (and even those who do not) to follow the link and read it carefully. Please, for your and your family‟s sake, read that. Drill down into the hyperlinks for better explanations; absorb as much information as you can. A violent crime does not begin at the point where one person with ill intent draws a weapon or attacks another.

    Quote: The Five Stages of Violent Crime: Crime and violence are processes that take time to develop. The attack is not the first step, the preliminary triangle must be built. There are five distinct stages that are easily identified: 1) Intent 2) Interview 3) Positioning 4) Attack 5) Reaction

    I do not believe the act begins after the BG has made his intentions known by drawing on you (attack); it began when he formed the intent. Well, there‟s not a lot I can do personally to stop another‟s intent, so I need to look a little farther along in the sequence and try to derail that train before it gets to the attack. For the sake of argument, let‟s remove weapons from the equation for just a moment. A 5‟2” unarmed attacker isn‟t going to choose a 6‟6” victim over a 5‟1” victim, right? He‟s going to attack the easier target. Now let‟s come back to the reality of violent crime and add back the weapons. Concealed carry presumes it is better to wait until the opponent has drawn his knife or gun and then try to „fix‟ the situation. It‟s seems a bit foolish to promote the idea that it‟s better to attempt to stop a violent crime in the fourth stage when you could instead prevent it in the second. A concealed weapon cannot deter an attack at the „interview‟ stage; it‟s completely ineffectual in that role. Open carry is the only method that provides a direct deterrent. Let‟s say the bad-guy missed the openly carried pistol and holster during the interview stage, and has proceeded to the „positioning‟ stage. Chances are pretty good he‟ll see it at some point then, right? Then, let‟s say the planets have all aligned just so and he, for whatever reason, has begun his attack despite your openly carried sidearm. At this point, the OCer is on level footing with the CCer, the attack has begun. Who has the advantage? Well, I‟m going to say that with all things being equal (skill level and equipment) the OCer has a speed of draw advantage over the CCer.

    First One To Be Shot: There are some who criticize open carry and claim it will make you more of a target or „the first one shot‟ when a robber walks into the 7-11, despite the absolute lack of credible evidence that this has ever happened. If the robber walks in and sees that you‟re armed, his whole plan has encountered an unexpected variable. In bank robberies where he might expect to see an armed guard he will have already factored that possibility into his plan, but only for the armed guard, not for open or concealed carry citizens. No robber robs a bank without at least a rudimentary plan. Nevertheless, being present for a bank robbery is an extremely remote possibility for most of us regardless of our preferred method of handgun carry, so let‟s go back in the 7-11. If the robber sees someone is armed he is forced to either significantly alter the plan or abort it outright. Robbing is an inherently apprehensive occupation, and one that doesn‟t respond well to instant modifications. He is not prepared to commit murder when he only planned for larceny. He knows that a petty robbery will not garner the intense police manhunt a murder would. He doesn‟t know if you‟re an armed citizen or a police officer and isn‟t going to take the time to figure it out. Either way, if someone in the 7-11 is unexpectedly armed, how many others might be similarly adorned and where might they be? Does this unexpectedly armed individual have a partner who is likewise armed nearby, someone who is watching right now? Self preservation compels him to abort the plan for one that is less risky. So we see that the logic matches the history; open carriers are not the first ones shot because it doesn‟t make sense in any common street crime scenario that they would be. If your personal self protection plan emphasizes “Hollywood” style crimes over the more realistic street mugging, it might be best to stay home.

    Continued below...

  20. Open Carry vs. CCW

    in Dumpster

    Posted · Edited by chevysoldier

    Great info, just for the record, my dad has never even had his gun out of the house, I was just using him as an example.

    This is why I posed for a direct comparison, I read alot of the older posts etc, and most were covering where one can carry, where they can't etc. Im aware of no carry zones, even with CCW permit etc, but was wondering what constituted concealed.

    Great answers, and thanks for everyones comments.

    Concealment isn't exactly specified in the books. Case law says that if you can see the majority of the gun and able to tell what it is, it's not concealed. If you have it under and shirt and it prints to the point you can see the outline and tell what it is, it's still concealed. I vaguely remember hearing that the military style flap holsters even in plain view, make it concealed because the gun really isn't visible.

    I've really never run into any problems when OC'ing. The only time was when a store manager asked me if I was a cop or if I had a permit to OC. I explained to him no permit was needed and even showed that to him in the CHL handbook. He let me on my way.

    Someone touched on it but if you look like you are doing what you're supposed to be doing, people really won't take a second look at you. Most here in central Ohio don't care IMO. Don't go out wearing ripped up jeans and a tshirt that makes some asinine political statement and you won't draw attention to yourself.

    Some reading material I have on hand.

    Information for officers regarding “Open Carry” of firearms by citizens

    In late summer in Akron, Ohio a couple officers saw a man walking on a Main St. sidewalk with a pistol strapped in a holster on his hip in plain view. The man said nothing and did nothing threatening. In fact, he was with his adult daughter and the two stepped into a restaurant to order food. He was just going about his own business. The officers were concerned, not yet alarmed, but wondered, “What police action should we take?”

    When Concealed Carry was made legal in Ohio some changes came about that affect local law. Most recently, state law enacted “preemption” with purpose to make any and all laws pertaining to firearms a statewide matter with uniform regulation and enforcement. Simply put, the state law trumps any pre-existing local ordinances and prohibits creation of new ordinances in conflict with state law.

    Under state law, there is no prohibition against carrying a firearm openly, i.e., not concealed. A permit is not required to carry this way. Carrying a pistol openly on the hip is not breaking the law. This action in and of itself alone is not a basis for a stop.

    Neither is carrying a gun openly disorderly conduct or inducing panic. If an officer engages in conversation with a person who is carrying a gun openly, but otherwise not committing a crime, the person cannot be required to produce identification. The law does specify that a person may not carry a loaded firearm in a motor vehicle except under the provisions set forth for a person who possesses a concealed handgun license (CHL).

    It is rare that people carry this way in Akron. However, if you do come across a person with a gun holstered in plain view, think before you act. Is he breaking any law? Is he threat? Is he doing anything that constitutes a Terry stop? If not, be cautious, keep on eye on his actions and let him go about his way.

    ______________________________________________

    Sgt. Jeff Mullins, Training Bureau. Reviewed and Approved by Police Legal Advisor, Mr. Tom DiCaudo, Asst. Prosecutor, City of Akron.

    OHIO Open Carry Information Links

    1. The United States Constitution, Second Amendment

    http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/bill_of_rights_transcript.html

    “A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed.”

    2. The Ohio Constitution, article 4

    http://www.legislature.state.oh.us/constitution.cfm?Part=1&Section=04

    “The people have the right to bear arms for their defense and security”

    3. The Ohio Revised Code 9.68: Right to bear arms – challenge to law.

    http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/gp9.68

    ORC 9.68 ©(1) “The possession, transporting, or carrying of firearms, their components, or their ammunition include, but are not limited to, the possession, transporting, or carrying, openly or concealed on a person’s person or concealed ready at hand, of firearms, their components, or their ammunition.”

    4. Klein v. Leis, 99 Ohio St3d 537, 2006-Ohio-4779.

    http://www.sconet.state.oh.us/rod/docs/pdf/0/2003/2003-ohio-4779.pdf

    “The state correctly asserts that the statute leaves open the ability to bear arms by openly carrying a firearm.”

    5. The Ohio Attorney General’s Publication Ohio’s Concealed Carry Law

    http://www.ohioattorneygeneral.gov/files/Publications/Publications-for-Law-Enforcement/Concealed-Carry-Publications/2009-Concealed-Carry-Laws-Booklet.aspx

    From page 18: “The open carry of firearms is a legal activity in Ohio.”

    No license is required unless the individual is in a motor vehicle. However, OLTCACH is very useful to have even when carrying openly.

    6. United States Supreme Court: Florida vs. J. L. (2000)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florida_v._J.L.

    “The court further declined to create a standard ’firearms exception’ to the Terry doctrine, as was recognized in some Federal circuits, stating, among other things, that ‘Such an exception would enable any person seeking to harass another to set in motion an intrusive, embarrassing police search of the targeted person simply by placing an anonymous call falsely reporting the target’s unlawful carriage of a gun . . . ‘”

    “That the tip accurately identified the defendant and that the allegation of the firearm ultimately proved to be accurate was insufficient to justify the seizure.”

    7. Police Chief Magazine: Responding to Gun Possession Reports

    http://policechiefmagazine.org/magazine/index.cfm?fuseaction=display_arch&article_id=757&issue_id=122005

    “A report that an individual possesses a handgun, without any additional information suggesting criminal activity, might not create reasonable suspicion that a crime is being or will be committed.”

    “Where simply carrying a handgun is no t in itself illegal and does not constitute probable cause to arrest, it follows that carrying a handgun, in and of itself, does not furnish reasonable suspicion justifying at Terry stop.”

    “The court declined to adopt the “firearms exception” to Terry’s requirement of reasonable suspicion

    8. Akron Open Carry Memo

    “Under state law, there is no prohibition against carrying a firearm openly.”

    “A permit is not required to carry this way. Carrying a pistol on the hip is not breaking the law. This action in and of itself alone is not a basis for a stop.”

    “Neither is carrying a gun openly disorderly conduct or inducing panic. If an officer engages in conversation with a person who is carrying a gun openly, but otherwise not committing a crime, the person cannot be required to produce identification.”

    9. Hamilton County Prosecuting Attorney Memorandum:

    “There is no statute, in the stat of Ohio, which prohibits the carrying an unconcealed firearm, on your person. Police officers are advised that they should not consider an individual openly carrying a firearm as an ‘automatic arrest.’”

    “Openly carrying a firearm does not mean that the person is automatically guilty of Disorderly Conduct (R.C. 2917.11) or Inducing Panic (R.C. 2817.31).”

    10. ORC 2917.31 Inducing Panic

    http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2917.31

    Since open carry of a firearm is in itself legal, it does not satisfy conditions 1, 2, or 3 of R.C. 2917.31 (A) for Inducing Panic.

    11. ORC 2917.11 Disorderly Conduct

    http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2917.11

    Florida v. J.L., 529 U.S. 266 (2000), held that law enforcement cannot stop and frisk a citizen based solely on an anonymous tip describing only innocent behavior and which also does not sufficiently predict the future actions of its subject.

  21. Open Carry vs. CCW

    in Dumpster

    Posted

    if your dad doesn't have a permit and he carries in a car, that's quite illegal. if he gets stopped and that become evident, he's more than likely going to be in a world of hurt. loaded guns in a car that an officer isn't aware of is a huge nightmare. officer line of duty deaths are up 1% from this tme last year at 158. illegal carried guns aren't taken lightly.

  23. Open Carry vs. CCW

    in Dumpster

    Posted

    Chevysoldier in 3...2...1...

    ass. lol

    oh yeah since he hit on it.

    if someone calls police on you, they will confront you. By now they should be aware of the laws and OC is not unducing panic or anything like that. but keep it in the hol;ster and dont be an idiot.

  24. Open Carry vs. CCW

    in Dumpster

    Posted

    I'm too tired to get much into this right now and if I am not totally clear, I apologize.

    1) This good become a shit storm thread. OC (open carry) vs CC (concelaed) can be very touchy. There have been other threads concerning this. Check the firearms thread.

    2)Yes, OC is legal in Ohio, with restrictions.

    3) OC into a car, or motorcylce considerds it concealed and a permit is required. even having a loaded magazine makes it loaded so even if they are separated its considered loaded and a permit is required.

    4) you can argue pros and cons all day. Tactical advantage or deterrent.

    5) I OC and CC depending on the situation. I prefer OWB becuase it is more comfortable and easier to draw from.

    6)I foget what I was going to put here.

    7)go through the firearms thread and read the information sticky. I think I have some info in there about the legality and ORCs. If not, I know they are in threads somewhere. If you want them and someone doeans't beat me to them, I'll get them later. Maybe in 8 hours after I wake up from bed.

    8)I have OC'd in home depot, walmart, stacy's restaraunt in Newark (no alcohol) fast food joints, gun stores, etc. I have also cc'd in the same.

    9)ill come back later and see what other info ppl have posted. most here are pretty knowledgeable.

    10) the end

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