Orion

Meyer would have taken the job at Michigan as well.

Fixed. Was having this discussion in CB today. I actually like the Volunteer work for Food stamps policy...

I don't think I said or even implied that I wasn't one. I am DEFINITELY an idealist, and self aware about it. I actually like what you are saying here, Brandon. You have some good points. What did the 37% go to? Is that the sum of ALL your taxes paid out? It would be interesting to see what the actual breakdown of one persons taxes went towards. Like, how much was for schools, how much went to emergency services, etc. Is that something that we can find anywhere?

And thusly, the thread devolves. Thank you Greg. You truly add so much to the site, and I, and all of us, are appreciative.

For real, if there are "facts" in the video that are incorrect, then by all means, let's hear some other numbers....If someone posted some earlier, I must have missed it. Disputing the legitimacy of the vid is fair game, for sure. And also, I don't expect those great minds of CR (mine included) to be able to SOLVE an issue like this. What I want people to explain is why they stand where they stand, and then to defend that stance. It's what I expect people to want me to explain as well. Like you said, this is academic. But, it IS enlightening. God forgive me for saying this about a thread on CR, but I feel like this thread has added to me, as opposed to subtracting from me in terms of my knowledge and understanding of other people and their individual situations.

Joe, I could not agree more with you. This whole conversation should definitely be viewed in context. Carls statement that we don't really know poor like a shoeless kid in Istanbul does is dead on. HOWEVER, we do have people in this country that are in places, financially, that suck, and that are hard to get out of. And THAT is what we are talking about.

Well, that's an unfortunate point of view. You are one of the more intellectual members, and it will lessen the conversation to not have you in it. I've never heard of anyone "wallowing" in their enlightenment. To the contrary, enlightenment tends to bring about change, or at least acceptance. Certainly no one is asking you to quantify or even justify what you do or don't do for the poor. In fact, there are, essentially, no action items throughout the thread. However, that can be true for what I would guess is the majority of threads on CR. This entire site is overrun with "academic circle jerk" type threads. I AM making judgments about individuals, based upon their responses to the goings on of the thread. That is not only natural, but necessary. I expect that the other contributors are doing the same about/regarding me and MY responses. I am doing my level best not to condemn anyone as a result of those judgments, however. EDIT: Man, I need to type faster. Missed a few responses....

Well, I'd say it's pretty clear that Ben believes the statement to be true, and that he thinks the government should be the one enforcing a playing field leveled more towards giving the less fortunate a means to escape their situation. That sound about right?

Not a bad thing at all, but it does put you in the same boat as Benjamin, so be careful throwing stones at him for what he believes. :-) I am hoping that more folks respond to my last question, because that is really at the heart of the matter. Sadly, CR's appetite for discussion like this wanes quickly after the rhetoric is all expended. That happened right away in this thread.

Or offer them incentives to do more in the community. Also, add Mojoe to the list of idealists in the thread.

Great Purdue article, btw.

I understand. Sorry to dredge up bad memories, and I hope the point I was trying to make is not lost in my offensiveness. A family that will step in is another luxury that some folks just don't have, and it sucks. Drew, In the same way as with Damreds, it was not my intent to call you out and offend, I know you to be a good dude from our other conversations. It's a MINDSET. We lump folks together, paint them with the big red pen, and then write them off in our minds as having failed the societal test for "worthiness". I am as guilty as anyone here. But we need, as individuals, to fight that way of thinking, because it's THAT WAY OF THINKING that drives the programs designed to help folks in this situation, AND our desire NOT to associate with them.

I love Mike, I am a subscriber to his site. The next time he is anywhere around here lecturing, I WILL go see him. You father sounds like he was a decent, responsible man, and I applaud him for his efforts. If I may, allow me to add a hypothetical wrinkle to your childhood. Let's say that your hardworking, loving father was tragically killed in an auto accident when you were young. Did he have a nice life insurance policy? Would your mother have been able to find a job that paid enough to make up the difference in income? How would things have been different? I know that tossing around “what if’s” can get us going down a rat hole, I only mean to suggest that hard work and dedication would have been for naught and you would have found yourself thrown down into poverty through no fault of you own, or anyone’s, maybe. Drew’s use of the phrase “these people” drives that point home even more bluntly. Some of the folks in this situation are there as a result of their own doing, but not all, and we as humans should be very careful painting with such a broad brush when we speak of the poor. One of “those people” could easily have been you. The bigger issue is this; In what way is society slanted to KEEP “those people” down there?

I also am learning that CR is full of idealists. And not just socialist ones. Ben is the obvious one, but Jones was a surprise. Any of you who believe that "working hard, and doing the right/smart thing" is going to elevate you to that upper echelon of income are just as, if not more than, idealistic than Ben. Neither is a bad thing, so don't hear me hating, I'm just trying to elevate the awareness level of the thread.

Shouldn't you, though? I don't mean for that to be a leading question, I'm honestly just curious. SHOULD we not ALL hate poverty? The guy who works his ass off to avoid being poor probably hates poverty. The broke college student who is wondering if his expensive degree is going to help him earn a living probably hates it too. I, in my condo with my secure, cushy job, my two dogs and my truck, I hate poverty. My wealthy uncle and his family, they all hate poverty. Poverty is a state, not a person. It is a situation, and there are many ways to find yourself in it. What I am curious is, how many of you/us have been led to believe that in order to hate poverty, or to struggle against it, we have to hate the poor as well.

I am going to ask a question that was asked between Eli and Myself over wings yesterday, to all of CR; What is it that is being hated; Poverty, or The Poor?

...unless you are the environment. In that case, things are looking up.

Um...we have one? And have had one for quite some time. Can we change the title of this thread to "DaddyBuilt and LJ argue about the strength of the B1G"?

The idea that an Urban Meyer coached team...ANY of them...is getting dissed for being "boring" is cracking me right the fuck up. I have been very hesitant to drink the kool-aid this year, and I feel I have been, up to this point, realistic about OSU's ability to play with the top five teams. However, I will say this, if OSU plays like they did v. PSU, they can beat anyone handily. I mean, D taking the ball away, O not giving it back, scoring on almost every possession....and they CAN play that way. They have just been very inconsistent this season.

That looks so much better than the current gen neo-retro crap.

*Nods*

Observations 1. I really dig the helmets for those uniforms 2. When our offense looks good, it looks REALLY good. EDIT: Also, having been AT the game, I can't even describe how awesome it is to make 114 years of history go "poof" in 60 minutes.

When honestly, the opposite should be true. Media -"OSU? Ugh, their offense sucks." Logic - "They won 7 conference championships in a row, played in 3 NC games, and won one of them." Media -"Man, that conference must suck." Logic -"OR, maybe, the defense is badass." Media -"Whatever." EDIT: So,we have ONE team on that list. And, it doesn't even feel like it was the best defense we had in that time span. http://athlonsports.com/college-football/college-football-bcs-greatest-defenses

Indeed. Our defense was just flat out sick. We made what was a POTENT offense in Miami look dazed and confused in that NC game. I remember reading the article afterwards and the quotes from the Miami linemen admitting that the majority of the time, they really had no idea who to block and where the blitzes were coming from. For all of his faults as a HC, Dantonio is a genius DC.

Not surprising, considering that's the defense that he himself thrived in, and also the one that Dantonio ran that was just SICK back in the early Tressel years.