Moto-Brian

Just a bit of food for thought, but Brandon over at AFJ made a REALLY strong point to consider. Take a weekend off from racing and take that amount saved and buy suspension. A weekend is easily going to be $1k. That buys exactly what Holly bought... The one race weekend will net zero points, but at the end of the day, your suspension will net a much greater result...

Whew! I was worried that I pissed someone off that I see out there and who isn't a know it all.

Not sure why I would think that is half assed?? You have something better than stock and will be able to tune properly and more accurately. The shock is iffy, but in the end, it is better than stock. Being a three way, you have the ability to fine tune moreso. That's the point...

Doesn't surprise me. Band aide was detailed in my responses. If you think it is the same as half assed? That's your deal. Band aide - only using springs and oil to get your bike's suspension ready for racing. You need more done, but due to finances, time or ignorance - you decide to only do springs and refresh. Half assed - when someone doesn't know what they are doing and skips steps in the assembly process. Puts shit together with the wrong tools and doesn't do what is needed in an effort to do the job right. So, putting in springs AS I STATED is a band aide, but is better than stock. If you assemble those pieces and decide you don't need to change the oil cause your lazy, that's cutting corners and doing things half assed. You can assemble a set of forks after cleaning with care and making sure everything is to spec and cleaned properly and oil put in at the right level and use of the right springs. All assembled correctly and professionally. OR, you can cut corners, not clean the forks and leave them assembled and not getting everything checked. Just turn upside down, drain, pop the cap off and replace the springs and measure the oil with a guesstimate on level. That's half assed. Half assed is the work. Band aide is the need for more to be done, but you can only afford doing the springs. There is still an issue that will eventually pop it's head up and will need addressed later. You've made the wound better, but not 100% healed...

If we can just figure out how to watch them this year!!!

BOOM!!! Pretty cool seeing that all I have heard in the 6 weeks at IMS is that the Ducati is shit and that Checa is in deep trouble... Nice to see he has it close. PI WSBK Test 2013 - Combined times from Monday / Tuesday 1. Carlos Checa ESP Alstare Ducati 1199 R 1m 31.059s 2. Marco Melandri ITA BMW GoldBet S1000RR HP4 1m 31.237s 3. Leon Camier GBR Fixi Crescent Suzuki GSX-R1000 1m 31.243s 4. Tom Sykes GBR Kawasaki Racing ZX-10R 1m 31.261s 5. Michel Fabrizio ITA Red Devils Roma Aprilia RSV4 1m 31.350s 6. Jonathan Rea GBR Pata Honda CBR1000RR 1m 31.356s 7. Leon Haslam GBR Pata Honda CBR1000RR 1m 31.396s 8. Eugene Laverty IRL Aprilia Racing RSV4 1m 31.452s 9. Davide Giugliano ITA Althea Aprilia RSV4 1m 31.640s 10. Sylvain Guintoli FRA Aprilia Racing RSV4 1m 31.658s 11. Jules Cluzel FRA Fixi Crescent Suzuki GSX-R1000 1m 32.044s 12. Chaz Davies GBR BMW GoldBet S1000RR HP4 1m 32.077s 13. Glenn Allerton AUS Next Gen BMW S1000RR 1m 32.159s 14. Jamie Stauffer AUS Honda Racing CBR1000RR 1m 32.231s 15. Loris Baz FRA Kawasaki Racing ZX-10R 1m 32.625s 16. Ivan Clementi ITA HTM Racing BMW S1000RR 1m 32.789s 17. Vittorio Iannuzzo ITA Grillini Dentalmatic BMW S1000RR 1m 32.880s 18. Federico Sandi ITA Pedercini Kawasaki ZX-10R 1m 32.964s 19. Alexander Lundh SWE Pedercini Kawasaki ZX-10R 1m 33.447s 20. Max Neukirchner GER MR Ducati 1199 R 1m 33.541s 21. Ayrton Badovini ITA Alstare Ducati 1199 R 1m 33.686s Philip Island official WSBK lap records Best lap: Carlos Checa ESP Althea Ducati 1098R 1m 30.882s (2011) Race lap record: Max Biaggi ITA Aprilia Racing RSV4 1m 31.785s (2012)

Now you're calling it half ass... Here's the drill. I called adding just springs a band aide. You got butt hurt.

I agree to a point. I think at worse case, he needs to make sure the springs are correct and that he should have the oil changed and level set. But, I agree. Run until you can afford the right stuff...

Got it. Take suspension to Hill for repair and service. Thanks. I said that the way you are going about the suspension on your race bike is a band aide attempt. Meaning, it could be your finances dictate you cannot do it at this time. Could mean you just don't want to spend the money. Could mean you have no idea and just are winging it. Any of those ways, it is a band aide to add simply springs for race use. Valving and the shim stacks are such that your range of tuning is limited. Yes, as I mentioned a thousand times at this point, springs will help. But again... Adding springs is only going to band aide the issue at hand. Look at this way. The RC8 which I have just a tad few laps on in stock form have springs that are set for my weight. However, the valving and the oil level and related are not enough for race use. RACE USE. I hit the limitations of the suspension almost immediately. Can I race with it or around it? Sure! Hell, I raced VMD on a bone stock RC8 with bone stock suspension and won against a superbike 1098... But, was I riding around the suspension? Yes. Would I have gone faster with better The issue is that you can do something like the trackday guys do with stock suspension and crank in preload and compression to accommodate the stock stuff. That is a band aide. Or, you can add springs and stick with stock valving and the stock shim stacks. That's also a band aide... I am worried that things like your comments on brake dive being a valving issue. It is a combination of different things. Hell, it can be that you grab a shit pile of brakes on entry and are not smooth that can cause severe brake dive... It isn't always JUST the springs. It also isn't always JUST the valving. It sometimes isn't BOTH. Here's what I will add and be done with this winter questioning and expert responses BS that goes on every winter. Suspension is something that needs to be done and worked on by those that understand it. Internet readings and how-to-handbooks aren't the way to learn. Half the people I run into that tell others how the suspension works can't even tell if they have any setup issues on their bike. Quick story... Instructor at a track day company. Has a decent amount of laps and is a decent rider. However, he has read a lot, listens to everyone and has a skewed idea towards suspension. Regurgitates info rather well, but doesn't understand tire wear, what causes it, what or why his bike does what it does. I've listened to him tell another new rider how to setup suspension and related ideas in regards to suspension. Is that a guy that should be doing that and providing such an impression to a new rider that probably will go out and try what he is taught? All I am trying to say is this. Suspension for racing is something that is more important than anything. It needs to be balanced and if YOU want to succeed, you can band aide the stuff or you can buy the right components that will only help YOU GET BETTER AS A RIDER. Band aides are easy and unfortunately as I MENTIONED, some cannot afford components like I suggested. That's fine. But they are band aides. Is it better than bone stock and settling for the springs and oil that is in your bike stock? YES! But, it is like tires. You can run Street only tires, street/track tires or race tires when racing. Some guys can go faster on street tires than guys on full blown race tires. Ability can allow someone to ride around issues that are present. But, is it ideal? Is it allowing the BEST out of the rider AND bike? You can race on stock suspension, stock with heavier springs or race on suspension that even if money is an issue, on something like the GP Susupension 25mm kit and a used Penske. All can be done. Which will net the best results and allow you to excel? Why be held back due to suspension? How long can one be held back and learn only to ride on shit while the rest of the class advances and gets better? There is a learning process with even better suspension components. Better suspension doesn't always mean you instantly get better and faster. You need to tune the machine to be better. It's a fine tuned instrument and adding better components will deeper the tune rate.

And you've been racing how long? The point I was making was that yes, he needs to sort a setup. But, your info is very confusing to a new rider/racer. Springs are a band-aide when talking racing. Until you do a cartridge kit and a proper shock, you are doing band aide style stuff to your suspension. Same with the stock rear. Stock stuff isn't good enough to race on with simply replacing the springs and oil. At a track day pace? Sure. Race pace? Not so much. Then, if you do the bare minimum based on budget which is fine, to feel it isn't a band aide is simply trying to justify what you did. The reality is that when you have the budget to do proper suspension, you SHOULD. Thus, your ability will increase and you will learn more vs fighting the bike. You can say the new components on a bike are great and they are actually very good. But, they limit the pace that you'll need to be competitive. Limiting yourself will force pushing the limits. If you are an entry level racer, this can be a bad thing. Limits and possibly not having the reserve needed for when you get into situations can cause body to meet ground. Of course, this is all just my lame opinion an you can do whatever your heart desires. I won't be on stock shit out on the track. I've done it and know the differences. Trust me when I say good setup and decent at worse suspension can make a world of difference in not only lap times, but your ability to ride/race more efficiently and effectively.

Can one assume you are not sponsored by the long list of industry names in your sig?

The double clicker is great. Better than an Elka. The idea needs to be equal work on both ends. Think of this - would you run a street tire on the front and a race compound on the rear to race with? Or a street rear and a race front? Point is that the front and rear need to work together to get the best balance. Cartridge or suspension work to the front and a stock rear with maybe a spring? Won't work well together. You'll band aide the rear to keep up with the front or vice versa if you do a rear shock and springs only up front. Spend money now and get it done right. You'll be amazed. Now, I will agree that if you are just starting, springs, proper oil and oil level and even new spacers to adjust tuning and a freshening rear of the shock and a spring can be a lot better than stock. To start out on and move up, but you will be limited. Tire wear, the ability for it to keep up with a track and then of course if you advance in ability...

If you are bottoming out and cranking in preload, you need suspension work. Springs are not just what you need. My suggestion would be and has been to have you get suspension work done properly. What I won't allow is poor info being spread to those guys like the OP who is asking legit questions and looking for answers and possibly falling into poor info and going down the wrong track... Suspension needs to work well and work correctly. If you have to do the crank in the knobs to get it to feel better, you have issues. The zip tye or rubber o-ring idea is to see the travel being used and to understand the travel better. But, just looking isn't the solution. Some bikes have bump stops that limit the travel more than others, but the idea is to get the most use of the available travel of your suspension and yet it working correctly. The right springs, the right valving, right shim stacks and the right oil viscosity and level are all things that go into proper suspension setup. Springs alone are a mask for some other serious issues. You can buy springs and band aide the issue and yes, spend less money. Or, you can get something like the GP Suspension cartridges and an entry level Penske and be good to go for years. Proper suspension will net you far better results than any exhaust system, motor build or fancy bolt ons. ergonomics to get you where you need to be in terms of body position and suspension are things to focus on.

My suggestion is to not go the Elka way. The elkas are a good track day shock and not really a race shock. They typically are undersprung and do not have the right valving. Buddy had one and had to spend something like $500 to get it to "race spec"... Racetech? The stuff is OK, but the reality is that for a few hundred more, you can buy a MUCH better quality shock and be done with it, grow into it and excel with it. Now, the Racetech cartridges are getting some positive reviews and are being compared to the feel and workings of an Ohlins 25mm kit which is impossible to find easily. Buy a used Penkse or Ohlins TTX and be done with it. Take it to Reuben and get it refreshed and you'll be golden. You can find a used Penske all day for $500-$700... Issue will be your brand and model of bike.

Not much is American made anymore. All I know is the armor is top shelf and is fully custom. Mesa ran em last year and crashed on them 3 times and they held up perfectly.

There used to be some supermoto stuff here in Ohio at CRP. That has long since gone and replaced with minis running fully paved. I would be willing to come down and help coach you and run you through drills, etc. The thing is with supermoto, it isn't about wheelies and stoppies. Sliding is an art form and great practice for road racing. Guys that run knee out on a supermoto can be just as fast as guys with leg out. In fact, as the sport progressed, there was less and less leg out and more and more feet on peg... Point is that if you are going to CRP and want some coaching, I would be willing to help. I have raced there and SEVERAL laps around the place. If road racing the bike, understand it is all about gearing and that a 450 or similar single cylinder motard is going to be stretched to it's limits in terms of engine. If you are topped out on a straight outside Mid-Ohio, you need to adjust gearing to accommodate. It can be done and usually involves a larger front sprocket and shaving off a tab on the swingarm to allow for it. I used to run my 450 up at Grattan and geared so I just topped out before the brake markers. It was the best I could do and worked fine. Just isn't my cup of tea as it just isn't the same. But, to each their own. Let me know...

That would be cool! Like I said, I don't care what they do. But, if you can explain a few things, that would be cool. Like I said, I will be there and try and grab a few measurements. And who knows? It may not be the same one he races, but it sure as hell looks to be.

Please send apologies to Nate as you guys are not shown with sigs to understand who is chiming in. As to your slinging shit comment, you or Nate made the Cardenas comment and that was slinging shit. I am simply making comments about Graves and the bikes. If other teams don't like what they are doing and maybe don't do what they are doing in an effort to stay within the actual rules, that's what I am talking about. I didn't say one single word towards you, RD or Nate until the out of the side of his mouth response about Cardenas. And no, it isn't a low blow as I know what I know and until you talk to the same people I have, you can only assume like everyone else. As for the rulebook, thanks for the timeline. I wasn't sure and wanted to know when the frame rules changed. The idea is that the rulebook is vague and as Red even mentioned, it is something that is left to a judgement call. I too have seen the Graves up close and very personal. I am also not going to share what I was told by the guy I talked to. But, he was at Graves and did work on the racebikes. So, I have no doubt what he is saying is true. And, if you honestly think everyone plays by the rules, you are being naive. I was told about some things and I haven't said boo as to exacts and it isn't my place. I've seen cheating at all levels and even raced against cheaters that had illegal rods hanging out of their motors after the engine blew. It's part of racing, man. But, the rules allow gussets. Gussets are triangular pieces welded to allow strengthening of the joints. Tell me how the allowance of plates welded as such as shown in your example vs. the stock frame are gussets and not thicker plate material welded in to strengthen the frame? I know a gusset strengthens as well, but in my mind, what Graves is allowed on the R1 isn't bracing per say, but rather plates that are welded into the frame and it appears the frame plating was removed and replaced with thicker material. What I saw was something where they had made some serious bracing and have a completely modified tank. The bike itself is more narrow than the stock bike. The plastics are even more narrow as well as the tank skin they are using. The overall profile from the front is more narrow than the OEM bike which is MUCH larger. I want to measure the width from the top of the frame left to right. It appears to be more narrow which would mean something totally else. I'm not going to get into a pissing match over this deal. I am not saying anything towards RD. It's easy to deny and say "show me proof", but it is also the same on my end. I have a guy that worked for the guy. WORKED for him. Telling me the things they did and what he knows. We racers all talk and we talk about the dark stuff. Why would I sit and give exacts when it isn't my place nor do I give a shit. But, to know that maybe Graves has used his presence in the paddock as a threat if he isn't allowed to stretch the rules vs. others isn't fair. And, if what the team guys I have heard this from and heard what they feel, why would they make that up? Sure, if they are winning, it is easy to blame the winnings on cheating. But you and I both know that the amount of modding needed to make that bike competitive can be seen clearly and that is something alone that is BS. I see EBR, KTM and others and what they are doing and they aren't having to totally redesign the frame to win or keep up. Sure, they aren't beating Josh and Graves, but they did pretty good on machines that are a lot closer to OEM than that Grave R1 is...

First of all, Nate - here's the drill... You can be a nut swinger and believe what everyone wants to believe when JU speaks. OR, you can understand when I tell you that what I stated was in fact from not only two team owners, but also a friend of Cardenas' and just after the Chicago IMS show, another racer that actually brought up the Elena Myers situation and stated it was due to not being able to bring money as it was out. You want to sling shit after hearsay and what a bunch of people jump on and say that have zero clue? Good for you. You wanna also doubt what I am saying? That's cool too. The Graves guy is legit and I know some things that aren't known or maybe were but people don't talk about. HE (not me) also mentioned Cardenas brought bucks to Yosh as well. So, it isn't just me and it is well known around the pits. So knock the third grade bullshit off. You are now part of a legit race company and all of a sudden have an abundance of info in your cap of knowledge. Great on you, man. That tank isn't what they are using. I will try and get a measurement at Indy and see what it is vs stock. Oh, and find out when the rules were changed and let me know... As for removing, there is more than adding bracing to that frame. Argue what you want. Make jabs from some BS back and forth between me and JU and get on the same band wagon as the other Good Ol Boys on the WERA forum. Or, you can actually talk to a few people and maybe learn some things for yourself. Whatever you decide. Just watch the tone, bud.

Uh, yeah. Like I said... That tank isn't even close and they don't run that style anymore. Also, their frame is a lot different than what you are showing... Anyways, I am not going to argue. You win... They are 100% same as what you guys have there and did.

Any word on the rear rim? I found a gold front so, please let me know...

Whatever you need to tell yourself. That frame and tank and the mods done to it aren't allowed to be done to the other team frames. The bracing and support and the fact the tank is nowhere near stock width indicates modding that goes beyond allowance. I have a friend that came from Graves. You're right. It's no secret.

Graves dominates because they are allowed more things that get overlooked than the other teams. Look closely at the Graves R1 at the IMS show and look at the stock R1. Tell me it isn't more narrow, has a SUPER modded and braced frame and that the fuel tank isn't modded to hell and back. They have five semi trucks. They don't get what they want? They pull rigs. AMA suffers. They get to do pretty much what they want. TC has less to do with it.

It relates more. The cars tug at heart strings. Again, you guys are all missing one key ingredient - motorcyclists are a minority vs. car owners. You were 16 and look around the group of 16 year old kids and count the number of motorcycles. Kids want cars, they grow up with cars, they see cars, they get it in the system at an early age. I'm a car guy, passionate for the car racing and have a love for them. The sounds of a V8 as a kid at the track was all I needed and I was already wanting to race cars at an EARLY age. race cars and toys, etc. Yes, my kids are around bikes and want to race bikes and love them. Toys, clothing, what we do on weekends, they ride, etc. But, my son is a minority in that regard at school... It's a show and NASCAR does a great job. It has a LOOOOONG history and again, was handed from generation to generation. My grandfather use to run moonshine, my dad street raced and drag raced, friends of our family were road race car guys. It was all about cars for me growing up. I didn't get into bikes until I was 18... Cars are part of our growing up and life here in the US. Big V8 powered American Muscle. NASCAR plays on that and they do a damn good job. Yes, they are slacking in attendance and you can blame greed, but it is the economy. People have to make a decision. Pay big bucks on the show (Travel, gas, food, hotel, etc) and the gate fees, food at the track, strinkets they buy, etc. OR, do they stay home? One major issue with even the NFL is that even though the sport still is strong, more and more people watch on TV vs going. NASCAR on TV is easier and almost as close to the action as one can get. I got to admit that I like watching MotoGP on TV rather than at the track. The show on the road is tough as I love the atmosphere and the smell and sounds, but watching the race from a grandstand sucks nuts. Another issue with road racing is that it isn't an easy viewing experience. You can see maybe a handful of turns. Then, you wait. TV allows full viewing. It shows replays, it shows slow motion and how things happened or works. It's such a better TV package than in real life for someone that isn't a fan - yet. SX/MX is different. You can see everything at once. They also make it a show - like NASCAR. The show is what makes you want to come back. I live 20 minutes from Mid-Ohio and have been at the AMA races since 1989. Every year. Raced AMA there, raced club there, done track days. I actually am bored out of my mind watching the racing there. It is too much a part of my life and if I can't do it, it makes me yawn. But, I watch an SX race start to finish and it is SOOOOO much better in person. Same with NASCAR and NFL games. Anyways, want this to change? They need to get sponsorship. They need to get the right people running the marketing efforts. We need more exciting road racing websites like you see in SX/MX. We need drama, action, movement from team to team by riders that means something. Hayes could go to Yosh tomorrow and nobody would be that shocked. They'd know he still wax everyone. Then the classes. Superbike is a joke. It should be unobtainable stuff, exotic, amazing. The riders and teams should be all factory and close racing. WSBK basically. It's 5 guys that are pulled away from everyone else and then the rest of the top ten are semi fast guys and 10-20th are club guys. Terrible. 600 is where it is at. The young pups are hungry and fast! They want to prove they are worth something and it shows. 600 DSB and SS should be the classes recognized as premium. But, I think Superstock needs to come back. More of the racers believe this also. Get rid of HD as it is not viewed as a serious class. It's looked at the same way they looked at the 883 classes way back when. Ditch it for Superstock and watch the young pups from 600 SS swing a leg over a liter bike and race each other. Then, the factories can develop teams to accept the young pups and grow the rider base in Superbike. Basically, model what was working great back in say, 1999 or similar. But, it will not be overnight. It won't be anytime soon, either. It is at a cross roads and I fear it may be a while before it gets turned around. Rant over...