Moto Series Track Day - Sport Bike Track Time Comparison

[oldschoolsdime92]

Novice group is all sorted.  OldSchool you'll have a PM shortly.  Next up is intermediate and then advanced.  Post up if you want images uploaded or want to buy a CD.

 

Thanks man! GREAT shots! purchases made! 

[Chuck Clay]

Next year can Indy Ducati bring any faster Motard's out???? lol

Edited October 1, 2013 by Chuck Clay

[Moto-Brian]

Novice group is all sorted.  OldSchool you'll have a PM shortly.  Next up is intermediate and then advanced.  Post up if you want images uploaded or want to buy a CD.

 

 

I'd like to see whatcha got also...

[Moto-Brian]

I suspect Zack and I were the "questionable" ones. First time at the track, and although signed up for A we were actually considering bumping down to I before the day started. Todd strongly suggested against it. So be it, we're not blazing fast but fairly consistent and predictable - Zack races, and I pretend.  So, what makes an advanced rider questionable then - not FAST enough?? The intermediate group guys eventually need to move up and become the slow A guys. Not as much fun, but the best way to become faster. And as far as riding a 250 in A goes, their corner speeds are right up there. You big boys know how to get around if you need to.

 

And while i'm at it, Chuck - what are YOU doing goofing off in I group?!!!

 

These guys were not faster in the corners...  Most the 250s were slower actually in the corners...

 

Predictable is fine, but when you are in full tuck on the straight in the draft behind two other guys and they split off to pass a 250, it's a bit of an issue with a bike that has 150 more HP...  Also, coming out on to the front straight, several of the 250 guys were somewhat in the middle of th track which normally would be fine, but again when following another rider out of say, turn 10 and the bike is on the rear wheel and all of a sudden the 250 is there, it is reallllllly hard to steer to avoid.

 

250s are uber cool and mucho respect, but they are like motards in terms of speed and really need to be in I Group.  in fact, we were going to suggest that for the next track day as it was really scary a few times...

 

It's all about safety and the fact that the speed differences are so huge, it is important to understand that yes, as you say - we are big boys, but the reality is that there were a lot of novices and they may judge the closing speeds a bit less and it could mean a severe issue...  I know that I had several close calls down the straight and out of the Bus Stop and Turn 10.

[Moto-Brian]

again.. I saw no problems with the passes.. and in the riders meeting it wasn't specified as far as passing rules. again its riders job to be informed but still. and lets not get in a fit about rules from motoseries to indy ducati, the day was great..  and it was only a few times in the whole day.. I never said it was a race pass but I did see a few that were closer than some Int people would be used too. that it.. nothing to go to the higher ups about.. sheesh people get butt hurt quick:P

 

Shit, people get so butt hurt so more often than ever before.  You remotely tell someone anything and they all of a sudden get all offended like you are saying they suck.  People need to understand that safety is key and close passes are in the eye of the beholder.  I can pass a guy like Matt or Justin and literally lean on them (Justin and I have laid on each other's fairings) and never have an issue.  Pure confidence.  But I pass a guy with enough room to fit another bike and he thinks I was too close.  Just because the speed difference... 

 

I wouldn't worry about it, man.  We will all just do our own thing.  But if I get a guy that thinks I am being critical or passing too close, I will make a point to stuff him like a thanksgiving turkey and let him get a good dose of what close is... 

[Moto-Brian]

Next year can Indy Ducati bring any faster Motard's out???? lol

 

 

Matt and I are talking about a big event (Hob - you will be invited) where we take Hypers and do some cool blogs of using the Hypers in every form.  Ice racing in MN, fire roads, road trip, Dirt Biking them and finally, a road race course.  So, we will have some Hyper Motards out there to play...

[Chuck Clay]

I'm just saying.....when you mix motorcycle performance levels or riders skill levels and you mix them together there can be a safety problem and that is also true for "I" group too. Make 4 groups 15 min every and run 8 sessions????? If we are crashing and waiting on the bamulance we are not riding!!!!! lol

[J_Copeland]

I'm just saying.....when you mix motorcycle performance levels or riders skill levels and you mix them together there can be a safety problem and that is also true for "I" group too. Make 4 groups 15 min every and run 8 sessions????? If we are crashing and waiting on the bamulance we are not riding!!!!! lol

Not a bad idea.

How would you group the 4 ?

[Chuck Clay]

In the extra group the slowest A group riders and the fastest I group riders....split all group to close to the same numbers. I know "I" group waited almost every session on crash truck from A group!!! so we got 15 min session, so should everyone else!!!! lol

[Moto-Brian]

I'm just saying.....when you mix motorcycle performance levels or riders skill levels and you mix them together there can be a safety problem and that is also true for "I" group too. Make 4 groups 15 min every and run 8 sessions????? If we are crashing and waiting on the bamulance we are not riding!!!!! lol

 

 

The groups are fine.  The issue is that when you have a self evaluation system, you get guys that "think" they fit into a group when they do not.  Example being the 250s used here.  They are not fast enough to support that they run the Advanced group.  Closing speeds being the key issue.  

 

Yes, no matter what group we discuss, you are having varied abilities combined.  Intermediate is by far the most diverse group.  You have new "I" riders fresh out of Novice and advanced "I" riders that need to be bumped to "A".  That is a MUCH higher diversity rate than in the "A" or Novice groups.

 

4 groups doesn't work.  The 3 groups are fine.  It just needs to be adjusted at times and riders need to be less proud and listen to reason.  Unfortunately, sometimes movement is prevented due to the number of riders in a group.  But, I can promise that there are some that need moved up.  They can be swapped.  After all, even an accomplished racer on a 250 can have more fun and work traffic management better in the "I" group.  In "A", they are getting bombed and hammered or frustrated at the speed differences on the straights with some bigger bikes only to be passing back in the turns.  In "I" group, they are working traffic as if they were in a race scenario.  It helps in the long run.  

 

No need for 4 groups.  I'd go nuts for only 15 minutes a session...  Bad idea.

[Moto-Brian]

In the extra group the slowest A group riders and the fastest I group riders....split all group to close to the same numbers. I know "I" group waited almost every session on crash truck from A group!!! so we got 15 min session, so should everyone else!!!! lol

 

 

Crashes are a part of the sport.  Sometimes and most often, the "I" group is the group with the highest crash rates.  I think a lot of the crashes in "A" group were lower ability riders.  Who is to say that they were in the wrong group and wouldn't have been crashing in the "I" group and then your group lessens the time the Novices get?  It's all relative...

 

Plus, they run the schedule different than anywhere else.  Typically, "I" goes first, then "A" and then Novice.  Novice losing 5 minutes isn't an issue as they are learning.  But, they do the Advanced first.  Trust me, I have waited a ton on "I" crashes...   

[Chuck Clay]

Ok, I'm just a rookie on a dirtbike trying to learn a new track........When is the next event???? lol

[i-Zapp]

i appreciate the feedback Brian, believe me - the closing speeds are def a concern and something that i've struggled with. I guess my rationale is that i'm more comfortable to have a handful of Advanced riders pass Zack with a relative closing speed of 60 mph, versus a whole crapload of not-so-advanced (Intermediate) riders trying to do the same at  maybe only 30mph. And i agree, 4 groups bad idea.

[Chuck Clay]

Brian, On a lighter note....I've spent a few years racing a Ducati F1B 750 in the BOTT, so if you or anyone else needs some old F1 parts I still have some around. I sold a lot of my parts to a friend (Rick L). Anyways it was a honor to hang-out with Indy group at your home track....thank-you!!!!

[OSUYZFR1]

The groups are fine.  The issue is that when you have a self evaluation system, you get guys that "think" they fit into a group when they do not.

This. I think there's way too many guys that just want the 'A' sticker on their bike and not really where they need to be to run A. Honestly I think it's getting worse. I know when I moved up I was really worried about holding people up so I waited. I've heard guys in A running lap times that I turned my second intermediate track day. I would have never thought about running A with those times.

You also hear guys talk about don't worry about your times just run good lines which is true but when there are multiple guys bunched up running 10-15 seconds off the pace it's not fun. The worst was MO after the AMA races.

[i-Zapp]

The groups are fine.  The issue is that when you have a self evaluation system, you get guys that "think" they fit into a group when they do not.

Getting back on topic here, re the difference between MS and STT - this is a good example of how they differ. Motoseries seems very lax about which group you sign up with. Like you said, it's a self-evaluated qualification. STT on the other hand required that we get paced (individually) by a control rider / ridign coach, and only then were we awarded an A sticker. And STT was VERY fussy about passing in I group - like a full wingspan clearance on outside passes (6' really?!), and no passing control riders until you get waved by. A little anal if you ask me, but I think MS could stand to be a little more regimented too (like "there are no passing rules")..

[blue03636]

Getting back on topic here, re the difference between MS and STT - this is a good example of how they differ. Motoseries seems very lax about which group you sign up with. Like you said, it's a self-evaluated qualification. STT on the other hand required that we get paced (individually) by a control rider / ridign coach, and only then were we awarded an A sticker. And STT was VERY fussy about passing in I group - like a full wingspan clearance on outside passes (6' really?!), and no passing control riders until you get waved by. A little anal if you ask me, but I think MS could stand to be a little more regimented too (like "there are no passing rules")..

 

STT doesn't have a rule for not passing a CR except for the first lap of I group every session. After that it's game on.

[redkow97]

Like I noted earlier, any for-profit trackday org is going to have an inherent conflict-of-interest when it comes to placing riders appropriately, and staying in the black.

 

If "I" and "B" are sold out (let's assume 100% of those riders are registered in the appropriate group), then by definition, all you have left to sell are Advanced spots.  What percentage of the population is qualified to ride in Advanced group, versus Beginner? 

 

Empty spots in Advanced when you have people on a waiting list for Beginner spots is leaving money on the table.

[Photos by Marty]

no shit.. all good.. and I want pics too sheesh marty get on it

All sorted finally.  Hob's you have a PM.  Jason you'll have one shortly.  Brian you're up after Jason.  Anyone else?

[Moto-Brian]

Getting back on topic here, re the difference between MS and STT - this is a good example of how they differ. Motoseries seems very lax about which group you sign up with. Like you said, it's a self-evaluated qualification. STT on the other hand required that we get paced (individually) by a control rider / ridign coach, and only then were we awarded an A sticker. And STT was VERY fussy about passing in I group - like a full wingspan clearance on outside passes (6' really?!), and no passing control riders until you get waved by. A little anal if you ask me, but I think MS could stand to be a little more regimented too (like "there are no passing rules")..

 

 

They state 6' like most groups do so that in your mind, you try and adhere to that policy.  In other words, nobody is out there with a measuring stick gauging what distance you passed, but in your mind, if you think you are passing outside the 6' rule, you probably are still closer, but at least there was effort on your part and was probably clean.  Does that make sense?  It's in an effort to try and keep as much distance as possible between the riders...

[Moto-Brian]

i appreciate the feedback Brian, believe me - the closing speeds are def a concern and something that i've struggled with. I guess my rationale is that i'm more comfortable to have a handful of Advanced riders pass Zack with a relative closing speed of 60 mph, versus a whole crapload of not-so-advanced (Intermediate) riders trying to do the same at  maybe only 30mph. And i agree, 4 groups bad idea.

 

 

But, as OSU stated and was correct about, there are a LOT of "A" riders that shouldn't be in that group.  It's always been an issue until the companies started doing pace rules.  Take the scenario where 4 guys go to the track.  3 are advanced riders and OK.  The 4th guy is really a mid pack "I" rider.  BUT, he wants to ride with his buddies.  He thinks he will ride with his buddies...  The buddies leave the guy and he is left running in a group well outside his ability level and gets in over his head often.

 

Happens all the time.  So, the idea is that the "A" group is able of handling the passing and level of riding as seen or believed to be seen in the "A" group.  When in fact, there are several guys running at a pace they shouldn't and it becomes a safety issue.  Not only on examples like the closing speeds, but when the true "A" level riders are trying to pass and believe that the rider in front of them is an "A" rider and passes as such.  Only to find out that they are mid pack "I" and they tangle...

 

It's something that has been going on forever.  Happens regularly and is part of the sport.  If anything, it teaches riders to manage traffic and that can be a great thing.

[i-Zapp]

But, as OSU stated and was correct about, there are a LOT of "A" riders that shouldn't be in that group.  It's always been an issue until the companies started doing pace rules.  Take the scenario where 4 guys go to the track.  3 are advanced riders and OK.  The 4th guy is really a mid pack "I" rider.  BUT, he wants to ride with his buddies.  He thinks he will ride with his buddies...  The buddies leave the guy and he is left running in a group well outside his ability level and gets in over his head often.

 

Happens all the time.  So, the idea is that the "A" group is able of handling the passing and level of riding as seen or believed to be seen in the "A" group.  When in fact, there are several guys running at a pace they shouldn't and it becomes a safety issue.  Not only on examples like the closing speeds, but when the true "A" level riders are trying to pass and believe that the rider in front of them is an "A" rider and passes as such.  Only to find out that they are mid pack "I" and they tangle...

 

It's something that has been going on forever.  Happens regularly and is part of the sport.  If anything, it teaches riders to manage traffic and that can be a great thing.

 

I dont mean to be argumentative, but in your example, that mid-pack Intermediate rider's abilities SHOULD have been vetted by the trackday organization before he hit the track as an A rider - i hope that actually doesn't happen that often. The premise to being an Advanced rider is predictable, consistent machine control, not necessarily race-pace speed. The presumption is that there is a level of comfort and confidence that comes with that that precludes getting spooked when being passed,  at least during normal trackday "this-aint-a-race" passes. I would think an Advanced rider should be able to pass a mid-I group rider without blinking an eye and not have to stuff him or endanger "getting tangled".

 

As i've admitted, i'm one of those bottom-feeder slower than shit A group riders. Somebody's gotta be. I sometimes get the impression that the A group is a racer-only group of elitists that dont appreciate anyone else crashing their party. (no pun intended!) But the reality is that the I group is huge and the fringe of that group WILL trickle into A. You crazy fast dudes just need to realize you have to share the track.

[OSUYZFR1]

I would think an Advanced rider should be able to pass a mid-I group rider without blinking an eye and not have to stuff him or endanger "getting tangled".

They can. It's just when there are 4-5 slower riders bunched up things can get sticky. Sometimes you can't get all of them at once and have to squeeze in mid pack.

[Chuck Clay]

They can. It's just when there are 4-5 slower riders bunched up things can get sticky. Sometimes you can't get all of them at once and have to squeeze in mid pack.

Your right, seemed like 8-10 in every corner and a few wandering around in the corner or just going too fast for their riding skills trying to keeping up with their buddies...... now I feel safe getting in the middle of that!!! lol  fact is no-matter what group out there WE or Me are not perfect but I try to be as safe and respectful to my fellow riders as can be in that somewhat controlled environment. If I was riding with my buddies it would be a different story.......and the other thing is, costing someone money or pain wouldn't make me feel well. 

 Slower bikes in A group should have a limit where they can run on the straights not in the middle......I run in some race classes that run 175mph and I run 120-125 but I ALLWAYS leave room on inside or outside in corners for them and stay out of the middle of the straights.

[Moto-Brian]

I dont mean to be argumentative, but in your example, that mid-pack Intermediate rider's abilities SHOULD have been vetted by the trackday organization before he hit the track as an A rider - i hope that actually doesn't happen that often. The premise to being an Advanced rider is predictable, consistent machine control, not necessarily race-pace speed. The presumption is that there is a level of comfort and confidence that comes with that that precludes getting spooked when being passed,  at least during normal trackday "this-aint-a-race" passes. I would think an Advanced rider should be able to pass a mid-I group rider without blinking an eye and not have to stuff him or endanger "getting tangled".

 

As i've admitted, i'm one of those bottom-feeder slower than shit A group riders. Somebody's gotta be. I sometimes get the impression that the A group is a racer-only group of elitists that dont appreciate anyone else crashing their party. (no pun intended!) But the reality is that the I group is huge and the fringe of that group WILL trickle into A. You crazy fast dudes just need to realize you have to share the track.

 

 

I'm not sure your point exactly.  My apologies if I say the same thing...  But, the fact is that there are people that go to the track and do not advance beyond a set level.  Not everyone can be Advanced level ability simply because they cannot get there.  Make sense?

 

As for the race deal - nobody is racing or at race pace.  Now, a racer's pace may be at 120% the ability of the guy he is passing.  Close passes are normal in Advanced and should be understood that they can happen.  The issue is that if a guy self evaluates himself as an advanced rider and is not ready, he can be in for a shock and overreact when passed by someone running 10 seconds a lap faster.  This leads to issues...

 

As for passing groups of guys, the same thing applies and I will revert back to the 250 example.  Take a 250 and mix with three guys that should have been intermediate level group riders.  Or, for the sake of fun, take the 250 guy, two "I" guys that promoted themselves up at sign up and an entry or mid pack "A" rider.  Add a racer or experienced "A" rider coming up on said clump...

 

The racer is going to be running at a pace well within his ability and nowhere near race pace.  However, he comes up on the group I mentioned.  The "A" rider is being patient.  He is waiting on a perfect time to pass and maybe is taking longer than he should, but being polite.  The two "I" level riders are all over the place.  They spread out on exit because they can't see and feel more safe with a clear visual.  The 250 guys is running 30 mph slower.  

 

The racer or advanced "A" rider is going to have a tough time threading through this group.  But, he does and may either get awful close to someone in the group or even tangles with one.  Whatever the result, the "I" guys could overreact and cause a ripple effect that goes through everyone.

 

The fact is that there is no room for erratic behavior in ANY group.  But, they learn in the Novice and "I" groups how to get better and it happens.  It's just the process and everyone starts somewhere.  Understood and respected.  But when you get to "A", there's no room for it.  If it happens, that person needs to be moved down.  Simple as that.  It isn't being a dick or being mean - it is just a matter of safety.

 

Like Chuck stated - there are also guys running a lot slower, but taking what we call the optimal line.  I came out of two seeing a really slow moving SV and made the decision to pass on the outside.  He didn't go out to the gators between 1 and 2 so, I decided to pass outside on the gators if needed.  He was literally running at least 30 mph slower and went straight for the outside on the line!!!  A little hairy...  Point is that had he ridden like Chuck explained and left a door open on either side, I would have been in and out fast and never caused him anything to worry about.  

 

There is never going to be a right answer to all of this at all.  There are fast guys, slow guys and guys in between.  That's the environment in a track day.  Same with racing, really.  

 

The bottom line and end result is the idea of traffic management.  Some of us are good.  Some of us are too polite and some of us suck at it.  Whatever the case, track days allow you to work on that aspect and gets you thinking more which is always good.