fungames43232 Posted February 8, 2014 Report Share Posted February 8, 2014 I have learned more about insurance than I have ever cared to learn. Here is my issue. My daughter(under my insurance) was involved in an accident. The driver of the other car admitted fault and SafeAuto was willing to pay for the damages(up to the covered $7500). Here is were my knowledge is lacking. First, I do have uninsured motorist, however I do not have under insured motorist. I never knew they were two different things, therefore my insurance company is not willing to help. The SafeAuto rep came out to do the estimate. He came back and stated that damages exceeded $8500 and could climb higher once in the shop. He ended up saying the car was totaled and the value of the car was $10,300. New SafeAuto rep calls me back and says they are mailing a release form and I need to go have the title converted to a salvage title. I received the release form and in some sort of legaleese that states by signing this, I release SafeAuto and their client from any further claim. It was my understanding that if you were under-insured ($7500 in this case) you are required to pay the delta between what your insurance covers and the damages outside of this coverage. I crossed out their clients name, initialed, notarized and signed and sent back with the converted title. SafeAuto is now telling me this is not acceptable and refuses to pay. They state after I sign the release, I am free to go after their client for the remaining if I wish. I am not a lawyer, nor am I a contract specialist, but to me it seems to me, if I sign a document that releases both from the claim, that I can not do what they just told I could do. If this is how insurance works, why would anyone have anything other than state minimums. At this point SafeAuto refuses to return my calls and e-mails. Not sure where I go from here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonik Posted February 8, 2014 Report Share Posted February 8, 2014 Claim it under your insurance. Let them sort it out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fungames43232 Posted February 8, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 8, 2014 My insurance will not assist since I do not have coverage for under-insured motorist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BadTrainDriver Posted February 8, 2014 Report Share Posted February 8, 2014 Your insurance may not pay, but they should be able to direct you "in your best interest", assuming you have a local agent you can speak to directly. That's all I've got. Good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fungames43232 Posted February 8, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 8, 2014 I do have a local agent and have called them on a few occasions. They say its a legal issue and they can not help. I'm not quite sure how it would be a legal issue as of now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonik Posted February 8, 2014 Report Share Posted February 8, 2014 My insurance will not assist since I do not have coverage for under-insured motorist. Then unfortunately your choices are limited. Take SafeAuto's offer or get a lawyer. FWIW (i am not a lawyer) it is my opinion that your thought that the other driver is responsible for damages over his insurance coverage is correct. He is responsible for the damage he caused, period. Will you be able to get that money without spending more than you get on a lawyer..I don't know. You should be able to get a decent lawyers opinion for free or a hundred bucks or so. I would do that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
just_some_dude Posted February 8, 2014 Report Share Posted February 8, 2014 Sounds to me that you are stuck either suing the other driver (not the insurance company) or taking what the insurance company offers. I think you should sue the other driver. Kind of unfortunate you already got the salvage title if you will be suing the other driver. Although, I'm confused... to my understanding the insurance company only requires a salvage title if the cost to repair the vehicle is greater than the value of the vehicle (total loss payout). In this case, they are not giving you a total loss payout, they are only giving you the total amount that the customer is insured for. I do think an attorney is needed in this situation. Bummed for you that you already got the salvage title. Based on what you are stating, if true, sounds like you are getting severely screwed. I'm not a lawyer or an insurance agent. Just stating this based on my own personal experiences in these situations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fungames43232 Posted February 8, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 8, 2014 "Although, I'm confused... to my understanding the insurance company only requires a salvage title if the cost to repair the vehicle is greater than the value of the vehicle (total loss payout). In this case, they are not giving you a total loss payout, they are only giving you the total amount that the customer is insured for." From what SA's claim adjuster told me they total a vehicle when the repair cost reaches x%(some super secret number) of the cars value. The reason is, the repair shop generally finds more issues which require repair and in many cases drives the cost above the vehicles value. I feel like I should drop all my coverages to state minimum coverage and save lots of money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bad324 Posted February 8, 2014 Report Share Posted February 8, 2014 You're stuck and the other insurance company is trying to minimize your payment out of their pocket. The form is however somewhat standard once an agreement has been reached. I have these filled out for any mishap for my company that isn't paid by our insurance policy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fungames43232 Posted February 8, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 8, 2014 The insurance company pays the same either way. All I was asking was for them to remove their client from the form. I feel like they are trying to bully since they are a financial institution and I'm the little guy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bad324 Posted February 8, 2014 Report Share Posted February 8, 2014 I'd have to see how it was written and stipulated the insurance company and insurance holder are indemnified of further action. Did their insured have to sign thAt same form? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
just_some_dude Posted February 8, 2014 Report Share Posted February 8, 2014 Here is how I am taking this... The driver went to the insurance company and said, "you know what, I don't really want to pay a higher premium. I will take the risk that my insurance company will not cover the value of a vehicle and I may be sued and have to pay out of my own pocket." The driver took that risk. Now simply sue him for the value of the vehicle. What I recommend is speaking with an attorney to see how this salvage title is going to work out in court. Because getting that salvage title on your vehicle just massively screwed you (I think). The way I look at this, as far as I can assume, the guy admitted fault, the insurance company admitted fault, it is a pretty clear win in court. The guy will have to pay damages. There is the question of how much at fault was he, though. Was any of this your (daughter) fault? That could be considered in a payout in court. But, if this guy is completely at fault, this is an easy win and he owes you some money. I don't think you need to hire an attorney to represent you if you can get your stuff together, but I do believe you really need to speak with an attorney to get educated and how this will all play out. Many attorney's offer free consultation. Or go to a legal forum and see if anyone is willing to give advice. There are a few forums that I have used in the past for general legal advice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fungames43232 Posted February 8, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 8, 2014 I'd have to see how it was written and stipulated the insurance company and insurance holder are indemnified of further action. Did their insured have to sign thAt same form?I am not sure if the insured had to sign the same or not. It reads like this: "For the consideration of 7500 receipt of which is acknowledged, the undersigned <name>(hereafter "the Releasor") being of lawful age, does hereby and for his/her heirs, executor, administrators, successors, and assigns release and forever discharge <name> his/her/their, heirs, executors and assigns his/her/their insure, Safe Auto, its officers, employees, agents yada yada yada from all claims, demands, liens, rights or causes of action known and unknown for damage to property, including but not limited to yada yada yada. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fungames43232 Posted February 8, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 8, 2014 Here is how I am taking this...The driver went to the insurance company and said, "you know what, I don't really want to pay a higher premium. I will take the risk that my insurance company will not cover the value of a vehicle and I may be sued and have to pay out of my own pocket."The driver took that risk. Now simply sue him for the value of the vehicle.What I recommend is speaking with an attorney to see how this salvage title is going to work out in court. Because getting that salvage title on your vehicle just massively screwed you (I think).The way I look at this, as far as I can assume, the guy admitted fault, the insurance company admitted fault, it is a pretty clear win in court. The guy will have to pay damages. There is the question of how much at fault was he, though. Was any of this your (daughter) fault? That could be considered in a payout in court. But, if this guy is completely at fault, this is an easy win and he owes you some money.I don't think you need to hire an attorney to represent you if you can get your stuff together, but I do believe you really need to speak with an attorney to get educated and how this will all play out. Many attorney's offer free consultation. Or go to a legal forum and see if anyone is willing to give advice. There are a few forums that I have used in the past for general legal advice. Everyone agrees the accident was completely the other persons fault. No disputes on fault, no disputes on what the insurance company owes. The only dispute is how the release form is worded with the other persons name. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbot Posted February 8, 2014 Report Share Posted February 8, 2014 Just. Get. A. Lawyer. The consult will be nothing compared to all the time you waste and the potential money you gain/save by not being ill informed and going on info from a bunch of dudes who will claim they ANAL 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magley64 Posted February 8, 2014 Report Share Posted February 8, 2014 Throw some bows?¿ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Revelstoker Posted February 8, 2014 Report Share Posted February 8, 2014 Yes, get a lawyer before signing anything. But yes, when we buy full coverage insurance, there are many types of coverage that you can buy and these coverages can be bought in amounts of coverage:100000, 200000, 300000,.......Liability, Uninsured motorist, Underinsured motorist, medical, towing, rental,..... Then, there are people that just buy Liability to satisfy the law. Now, not everyone is out to be a cheapass. Imagine you have 500k worth of full coverage. If you hit someone and damage their property, the collision portion of the coverage should cover the physical damage and then the comp or medical should kick in. Now, instead of hitting a car, you hit a bus full of kids and it goes off the road. Now, instead of having 500k worth of damage to cover, you now have $5,000,000 worth of damage. Your policy is only up to 500K. At that point, the other person's coverage will kick in as you are UNDERINSURED. At some point, their coverage is going to be exhausted and the court battles insue. Now, I am not a lawyer or a liscensed insurance agent but I some how doubt SafeAuto (their agent) is limited at $7,500 but maybe the person only had liability?? I don't think I have ever seen or heard of a company selling a policy with that low of coverage. Liability is cheap and I used to have 300k worth of liability. So, I would seriously question that $7,500 amount, would not sign and would contact a lawyer immediatelly. Second, since you don't have underinsured, I can see how your insurance is claiming an out. But, nothing is ever black and white so your insurance may be on the hook at some level but it will take an expert to figure this out, so get a lawyer. Best of luck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bad324 Posted February 8, 2014 Report Share Posted February 8, 2014 I am not sure if the insured had to sign the same or not. It reads like this:"For the consideration of 7500 receipt of which is acknowledged, the undersigned <name>(hereafter "the Releasor") being of lawful age, does hereby and for his/her heirs, executor, administrators, successors, and assigns release and forever discharge <name> his/her/their, heirs, executors and assigns his/her/their insure, Safe Auto, its officers, employees, agents yada yada yada from all claims, demands, liens, rights or causes of action known and unknown for damage to property, including but not limited to yada yada yada.Definitely consult a lawyer but just from that snippet that is a pretty common release form from an Insurance company. Since it doesn't specifically name the insured client in that quote you are able to go after them for the rest of the funds you're asking for. Basically it's an indemnity clause so State Farm isn't on the hook for anything you want after the fact Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonik Posted February 8, 2014 Report Share Posted February 8, 2014 Definitely consult a lawyer but just from that snippet that is a pretty common release form from an Insurance company. Since it doesn't specifically name the insured client in that quote you are able to go after them for the rest of the funds you're asking for. Basically it's an indemnity clause so State Farm isn't on the hook for anything you want after the fact I agree with this, but keep in mind neither I nor the Mexican quoted above are lawyers. Talk to a real lawyer, it will be free and you will know for sure what to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Revelstoker Posted February 8, 2014 Report Share Posted February 8, 2014 "Although, I'm confused... to my understanding the insurance company only requires a salvage title if the cost to repair the vehicle is greater than the value of the vehicle (total loss payout). In this case, they are not giving you a total loss payout, they are only giving you the total amount that the customer is insured for." From what SA's claim adjuster told me they total a vehicle when the repair cost reaches x%(some super secret number) of the cars value. The reason is, the repair shop generally finds more issues which require repair and in many cases drives the cost above the vehicles value. I feel like I should drop all my coverages to state minimum coverage and save lots of money. This sounds fishy as well. Not sure how another company can make the total claim and request the title. Their whole point is to simply cut the check. Yes, when a vehichle is damaged and an estimate of repair is generated, the insurance company will compare the cost of repair vs. the value of the vehicle. If the repairs are 80% of the cost ot the vehicle, the insurance company will want to total the vehicle. Lets say, the value of your vehicle is 10,000 and the damages are 8,000. The company will want to total. They should offer to cut you a check for 8,000 and take the vehicle. However, they should offer to sell you the vehicle back for lets say 2,000. You can keep the car with a salvage title and have 6000 in your pocket. If you can get the vehicle repaired for less than 6k, your money ahead but will have a car that is worth less with the salvage title = track car!! Not bad if you have a beater and hope to keep it to salvage. Yes, there is often damage internally that an adjuster cannot see and is only found once the repairs start. At least that is the process I went through twice but in both instances, I did the damage to myself and was running the process through my insurance. Yes, it is tempting to just buy the min. amount of insurance and let someone else deal with it; however, someone is going to go out and get a lawyer and come after your cheap ass. In my previous post, remember that 5,000,000 bus accident? Well, lets up it a bit. Say you hit that bus and actuall killed two kids that spent a month on life support and several had to be medivacced. Now, instead of 5,000,000 - your negligence now had a quantifiable amount of $500,000,000. Under either scenario, someone at somepoint is going to come back trying to recoup costs. You will be hauled into court, lose and every single thing you own will be sold at auction and a garnishment will be put on you for the rest of your life. In the end, insurance companies will lose in this extreme but not unrealistic scenario. Point is, you should carry enough insurance to protect your and yours for the 80% of situations we find ourselves in. For that reason, I always tell people to carry 300k/300k insurance at a minimum. If you have more exposure, like myself, i carry 1M/1M with another blanket umbrella policies. Am I totally protected, no but I am betting that 1M should be suffcient to cover 99% of any collision I am involved in or others that are working for us. But, it could all be false assumptions as someone always knows more, has more money and/or better lawyers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fungames43232 Posted February 8, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 8, 2014 The person was named in the release letter. I just blanked it out with <name>. It seems the general consensus is to speak to a lawyer, which I plan to do. At this point, its not about the money. It's about a big company trying to push the little guy into something they should not have to do. Here is the e-mail trail below. SAYou crossed out our insured’s name on the Release. This is not acceptable. The purpose of the document is to “release” or extinguish all claims against <name of client> in exchange for the $7,500. If you aren’t agreeable to this, we won’t be able to issue payment to you at this time. MeI want to thank you for looking into my claim. Please provide next steps for processing and settling this claim. SAWe only have $7500 available. We would ask that you sign and notarize the release indicating your acceptance of that offer before we would pay you. If you are not interested in accepting this money to settle the claim, we can’t pay you. MEI have spoken to your sales agents. The sales agents state if I buy state minimum coverage $7500 and damages exceed $7500(Ohio State minimum) that I would responsible for the difference. I also spoke to my own insurance company and have confirmed this to be true. This also holds true when I look up Ohio's laws regarding insurance. Are you saying we need to operate outside of Ohio law in order to pay the claim?.............Yes I called their 1-800 number and asked these questions. SASafe Auto will not issue payment to you unless you accept our offer of $7500 to extinguish this claim. If you continue to pursue the excess damages against the insured personally, that is your choice. But we will not pay the $7500 unless we have a contract signed by you (the Release) in which you agree to accept the money as payment for the damages caused on this date of loss. MEI agree 100%. I think we are both saying the exact same thing. I am more than willing to accept your offer of $7500 and pursue the excess damages with your client. Safe Auto only has a liability of $7500. This is how the Ohio laws read regarding insurance. Your release form blocks me from doing what you just said I was free to do. Please help me understand. SAIf you continue to pursue our insured for the damages, then you are not agreeing to the release. If you are not agreeing to the release, we will not pay you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redkow97 Posted February 8, 2014 Report Share Posted February 8, 2014 (edited) How much do you stand to recover?You can avoid paying (up front) for an attorney if they're willing to work on a contingent fee basis. That also incentivizes them to get the most money. Typically an attorney will want 30% of any settlement, or 40% of any judgment (I.e. if it actually goes to trial)I can't (and nor can any other attorney) give you an educated answer on this without knowing ALL the facts and researching the case law. The latter takes time, and costs money. Legal services are just like any other - you can expect a free "diagnosis" to some degree, but no mechanic can tell you exactly what's wrong until they spend a few hours taking things apart. Edited February 8, 2014 by redkow97 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fungames43232 Posted February 8, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 8, 2014 There is not much money in play here. The difference is $2800. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zx3vfr Posted February 8, 2014 Report Share Posted February 8, 2014 Keep refusing to sign it. Get a lawyer and ask mods to delete this thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strictly Street Posted February 8, 2014 Report Share Posted February 8, 2014 Sounds like a standard if bullshit dodge by the Insurance company to get out of a payment. Some things to consider. They are legally obligated to pay in a reasonable time frame. Their comment that unless you sign you get nothing is BS.They will stick to their story until somebody tells them to knock it off. May I recommend the State Insurance Commission.They control the license for Safe Auto to sell insurance in the state of Ohio. Questions or concerns?The Ohio Department of Insurance regulates agents and companies that are licensed to sell insurance in our state. The Department’s Consumer Services representatives can answer your insurance questions and investigate your complaints about an insurance company, contact the Department at 1-800-686-1526. Next see a lawyer. Sue them both for damages, legal fees and court costs. Don't sign anything.Stop wasting time and effort with their BS policies. Sue them both and complain to the state. Just for fun don't take their calls when they change their tune and suddenly want to talk to you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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