Scruit Posted October 9, 2014 Report Share Posted October 9, 2014 A church attended by a friend of mine does missionary work at an orphanage in Africa. They visit regulalryly to bring donations, supervise the orphanage/school, etc. A member of the congregation recently came down with malaria and was flown home and is in the ICU. I've been following the updates on FB and after some time he is finally responding to dialysis and is doing better. The problem I have is that all the folks on the FB thread keep talking about is how god is healing him. Over and over, dozens of messages a day, all chanting that god is healing him and that only prayer will heal him. Seems to me that it's the doctors that are healing him, right? No? The dialysis? The other treatments that the doctors are administering? I'm familiar with asking for prayers but the thread had become very kool-aidy. If people think that god is healing him them shouldn't they discontinue dialysis so that they can let god do his work without interferance? Do people actually believe that there is a god that is taking time out from his day to heal him through some direct intervention? By working through the doctors? Like as in some kind of posession? Or letting the doctors toil knowing their ministrations are useless and they snappign his fingers and making him well? Does that mean that god chooses to watch other people die becuase not enough prayers were said? I did not pray at my brother's bedside when he was at death's door, and the surgeons saved his life. Was that god ignoring my failure to pray? I did not pray at my mother's bedside when she was at death's door, and the surgeons did not save her. Was that god punishing my failure to pray? Did he let my mother die because of me? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tpoppa Posted October 9, 2014 Report Share Posted October 9, 2014 I have much faith...in science. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scruit Posted October 9, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 9, 2014 OP, are those rhetorical questions, or are you looking for a real discussion about theology and divine intervention? Real questions. What role does god play in healing, and why do we still need doctors? Does prayer really convince god to save someone that he's already decided to allow to die? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tpoppa Posted October 9, 2014 Report Share Posted October 9, 2014 Scruit, are you a deeply religious fellow? Some of the responses you get may offend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scruit Posted October 9, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 9, 2014 (edited) Scruit, are you a deeply religious fellow? Some of the responses you get may offend. I am a Weak Agnostic. I don't have enough information for know if god exists or not, but I am have no problem with the fact that other people either believe or don't believe. Versus either believing god exists, Athiest (no god) or being a Strong/Strict Agnostic (There's not enough information to know if god exists, therefore nobody should either believe or not believe) I'm not going to be offended hearing whether other people believe or not. Edited October 9, 2014 by Scruit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Connie14 Posted October 9, 2014 Report Share Posted October 9, 2014 This is going to be a good thread, and it is not even winter yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScubaCinci Posted October 9, 2014 Report Share Posted October 9, 2014 The thread title is repetitive Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tpoppa Posted October 9, 2014 Report Share Posted October 9, 2014 (edited) Here is my most honest, trying not to be an a-hole response: The whole notion of God choosing who to heal and who not to heal is counter-intuitive to many teachings in the bible about God being merciful, loving, just, etc. I think after people of faith go round and round on this topic they inevitably give up and say something like "God works in mysterious ways," which is the equivelent of saying this cannot be explained in the context of Christianity <or insert other religion here>. In a large enough control group where all received equal medical care and half pray for healing and half do not, the differences would be "statistically insignificant." I think prayer can make some difference, but I would call that difference a "Placebo Effect." Again, I have much faith...in science. Edited October 9, 2014 by Tpoppa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scruit Posted October 9, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 9, 2014 (edited) This is going to be a good thread, and it is not even winter yet. As long as people talk about what THEY believe and not what OTHER folks should believe, I think this group is mature enough to have a proper conversation. Right? Right? Bueller? Edited October 9, 2014 by Scruit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbot Posted October 9, 2014 Report Share Posted October 9, 2014 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scruit Posted October 9, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 9, 2014 I believe that god is irrelevant to people's healing, and that praying to him is the religious equivalent of saying you'll start working out next week - it gives you the feeling that you are doing the right thing, without actually having any effect. I think praying for healing, like attending funerals, is irrelevant to the affected person and is really just to make everyon else feel better about it. Open to having my mind changed, though... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scruit Posted October 9, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 9, 2014 I said "science" heals. I want to rephrase... Nature heals itself. Sometimes it needs a kick start, though. I believe that although bodies heal themselves for the most part, doctors are sometimes needed to help when the body can't manage alone. Praying does nothing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tpoppa Posted October 9, 2014 Report Share Posted October 9, 2014 I believe that god is irrelevant to people's healing, and that praying to him is the religious equivalent of saying you'll start working out next week - it gives you the feeling that you are doing the right thing, without actually having any effect. I think praying for healing, like attending funerals, is irrelevant to the affected person and is really just to make everyon else feel better about it. Open to having my mind changed, though... I think it would be most excellent if there was a supreme being that could make order from chaos, bring meaning to the meaningless, and intervene divinely. However, my lifetime of experience from observing the world around me...seeing good people die untimely deaths, while the less deserving carry on simply does not bear this out. This is where some say, "God works in mysterious ways." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tpoppa Posted October 9, 2014 Report Share Posted October 9, 2014 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C-bus Posted October 9, 2014 Report Share Posted October 9, 2014 I believe that your mind is more connected to your body than most would think. A belief that prayer is working, for the afflicted person, may actually help with their physical ailment. Someone else's belief in prayer doesn't do anything for the afflicted person. I would, however, buy in to that virgin paradise thing. That would be tits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bloodninja420 Posted October 9, 2014 Report Share Posted October 9, 2014 A large part of adult behavior revolves around signalling you care, as a way of strengthening an individual's bond with family and tribe. The people on your FB are engaged in performance (mainly for a 3rd party audience as opposed to the sick individual) to signal that they are both compassionate and loyal members of their particular religious tribe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gixxus Christ! Posted October 9, 2014 Report Share Posted October 9, 2014 If any of that shit worked psychics would win the lotto and priests would work in hospitals.Medical science heals. God gets the credit. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scruit Posted October 9, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 9, 2014 Are we talking generic divine architect, or some specific god. (i.e. Abrahamic god)Any divine being that we would call god. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tpoppa Posted October 9, 2014 Report Share Posted October 9, 2014 Is "God" a valid choice for a provider on HealthCare.gov? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MidgetTodd Posted October 9, 2014 Report Share Posted October 9, 2014 I believe whenever they fully believe God is healing them, they should let me pull the IV and see if they continue to improve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tpoppa Posted October 9, 2014 Report Share Posted October 9, 2014 Personally speaking, "god" is not real. The concept is archaic and something that should be remembered and left in the past, where things like that belong. God, gods, and the super natural were Bronze Age Man's best attempt to explain the unexplainable. Man could explain VERY little during the Bronze Age, due to limited/nonexistent knowledge of medicine, the human body, the universe, germs, weather...pretty much everything that affected living and dying. It was not a particularly enlightened period in the development in mankind. As knowledge, science, & technology evolve...we are less dependent on trying to explain the world around us via the super natural. http://carm.org/hawking_universe_god 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbot Posted October 9, 2014 Report Share Posted October 9, 2014 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bloodninja420 Posted October 9, 2014 Report Share Posted October 9, 2014 If my Facebook is representative, we've abandoned abandoned religion only to channel our spiritual urges toward organic recipies purchased at Whole Foods. The Apple store has been substituted for the temple. Religious pilgrimages still take place, it's just the late-20-something females trying to 'find themselves' (in the touristy parts of major cities in western europe.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tpoppa Posted October 9, 2014 Report Share Posted October 9, 2014 Religious pilgrimages still take place, it's just the late-20-something females trying to 'find themselves' (in the touristy parts of major cities in western europe.)Is that code for banging a bunch of Spanish dudes out of the country so their friends and family don't find out? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YSR_Racer_99 Posted October 9, 2014 Report Share Posted October 9, 2014 I'm a believer. I wasn't raised that way directly, but came to it later in life. I'm not judging anyone. I'm as likely to call someone a name or get pissed on the highway as the next person. I see God all around. John Clayton was instrumental in opening my eyes. Doctors and science are necessary and beneficial. Its not an either/ or proposition. "Its either science, OR its God. There can't be both". Holistic folks find quickly that a lot of ailments can be cured naturally, but the medication folks. Those cures/ treatments (i.e. natural remedies) were put here by God. I think Todds comment is interesting, being that he's directly in the medical field. The human body is a wonder in itself, as is our placement in the universe. "The likelihood of this earth being in exactly the right place that it needs to be in this huge universe is akin to a tornado hitting a junk yard and coming out with a fully functioning 747 on the other side" (or something like that). Its called "faith" for a reason. "You can't SEE God", "You can't TOUCH God". Directly? No. But I have faith that this isnt all an accident. "Why does God let bad things happen?", "Why does God let children get cancer?". Dunno. Don't profess to know. But I think that prayer can only help. I don't see any way that it could hurt. If you don't believe, I'm not going to convince you. Just like you won't convince me to not believe. I'm not gonna fight that battle. "There is no atheist in a foxhole": Why is that? There is something built in to us. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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