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how do I say this... military aircraft get shot down a lot more than people know, and nothing is said by either side if it's a military thing. World war three does not start. Combat does not start. But if it's a political thing, it's big news.

 

One reason is that if it was a reconnaissance flight, then it was looking for secrets. The result is that nothing gets said by either side, since the subject/target involved is.... secret.

 

The only reason I found out, is that I worked with a bunch of cold war era pilots that had some incredible stories about it. I guess the cold war wasn't so cold. At least as far as the general public knew. I don't think we're back to that yet, and probably never will be. We use satellites and drones now.

 

And we have the agreed Open Sky Policy, that allows other countries to overfly even for reconnaissance purposes, as long as they file a flight plan, and meet the requirements of the treaty. USA and Russia allow 42 flights per year. We don't ever hear much about it, since the flights and target subjects are generally.... secrets.

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The shooting down of the Russian jet has less to do with 17 seconds or airspace and more to do with this:

 

"Russia is in Syria not to fight ISIS but to save the Assad regime as a permanent Russian ally. Turkey has two goals: It wants to clip the wings of the independence-minded Kurds, but it also wants to see Assad fall.

And while Turkey's goals differ from those of its NATO allies -- particularly because Ankara has largely turned a blind eye to ISIS, an enemy of the Kurds -- the NATO bloc mostly agrees on its antipathy towards Assad."

http://www.cnn.com/2015/11/24/opinions/ghitis-russia-jet-shot-down/index.html

Edited by Tpoppa
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The media (twitter and comments) keep saying Turkish air controllers warned the aircraft between 12 to 109 times in the amazing 17 seconds it was in Turkish airspace. Typical media spin. That's not how it works. When an unknown aircraft approaches your border, you start asking identification and intentions. About 12 miles out it gets serious. Turkish air control no doubt continuously transmitted to those two aircraft, particularly since they could not or would not answer. Violations of common international airspace protocols, refusing to communicate, over flight of territory, attacking Turkman territory (a definite Turkish ally). On a touchy border. To make it worse, Syria has similar aircraft. I'm not surprised at the result. In some ways, it couldn't have been more deliberate.

 

edit: btw, Turkey (Ottoman Empire) and Russia have fought 12 wars between 1568 and 1923. Yes, there is a history there.

Edited by ReconRat
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oops.... a surviving Russian pilot says there were no warnings, no communication. One side or the other is lying, probably both. edit: "US military officials said there were indications the downed plane entered Turkish airspace for a matter of seconds, and that it had been warned to stay out."

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2015/11/25/world/middleeast/ap-syria-the-latest.html

 

Turkey says one of the two aircraft responded and departed, the other did not.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-34912581

 

Syrian forces are advancing North in that area, toward the Turkish border, going after Free Syrian army and others, not ISIS, and air strikes are supporting them. The Russian airstrikes have now been cranked up.

 

At this point the worse thing that could happen is a Turkish armor strike (with mobile ground-to-air anti-aircraft support) across the border against Syrian troops. There have been 9 clashes between Turkey and Syria since 2012.

Edited by ReconRat
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oops.... a surviving Russian pilot says there were no warnings, no communication. One side or the other is lying, probably both. edit: "US military officials said there were indications the downed plane entered Turkish airspace for a matter of seconds, and that it had been warned to stay out."

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2015/11/25/world/middleeast/ap-syria-the-latest.html

Turkey says one of the two aircraft responded and departed, the other did not.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-34912581

Syrian forces are advancing North in that area, toward the Turkish border, going after Free Syrian army and others, not ISIS, and air strikes are supporting them. The Russian airstrikes have now been cranked up.

At this point the worse thing that could happen is a Turkish armor strike (with mobile ground-to-air anti-aircraft support) across the border against Syrian troops. There have been 9 clashes between Turkey and Syria since 2012.

The surviving pilot is reported to also be stating he did not violate Turkeys are space.

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The surviving pilot is reported to also be stating he did not violate Turkeys air space.

yeah, this is a political game between NATO and Russia. Increased after the thing in the Ukraine and Crimea. Constant Russian ground and sea maneuvers and air flights testing and violating NATO borders everywhere. Too early yet to know what will happen or happen next. Most likely just more of the same.

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...At this point the worse thing that could happen is a Turkish armor strike (with mobile ground-to-air anti-aircraft support) across the border against Syrian troops. There have been 9 clashes between Turkey and Syria since 2012.

 

oops again, I had the right idea, but it happened in a different country. Turkey has sent troops and armor (20-25) into Iraq, to support Sunnis in Bashiqa near Mosul. "Training" only. Iraq (a predominantly Shitte government) asks them to leave, since they never asked permission.

 

The question is, who is getting the "training". The Iraqi troops? The Turkish troops?. Probably everyone.

 

edit: The Bashiqa training camp is Iraqi Peshmerga forces -- Kurdish fighters in the region. Turkey has had training advisors there for 2-1/2 years.

Edited by ReconRat
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oops again, somebody hit a Syria Army unit from the air. Ammo dump, vehicles, armor, and personnel. Syria claims US aircraft did it. US says no US airstrike within 55k (34 miles) from there. Unknown yet who did it.

 

edit: The Syrian forces said the aircraft attacked with rockets. US aircraft typically don't use rockets, the Russian SU-25 does. That's the Russian equivalent of an A-10. And yes, they are used in Syria.

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/us-denies-syrian-accusations-that-its-warplanes-hit-a-syrian-base/2015/12/07/db72a0fb-cc62-49c8-a5ed-997c2e6e1f98_story.html

 

edit again: Pentagon says it was Russian aircraft.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/us-denies-syrian-accusations-that-its-warplanes-hit-a-syrian-base/2015/12/07/db72a0fb-cc62-49c8-a5ed-997c2e6e1f98_story.html

Edited by ReconRat
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