Feets Techniques?

[hiro]

When moving your toe under the shifter, how do you do it? Do you slide your toe forward directly under the shifter, or out to the side then under in an arc? 

When I first started riding, I kept both feet right at the edges of the brake and shifter so I could feel them. Then I started to place my feet further back away from the controls. The brake foot slides directly forward, of course. My shifter foot, tho, will go out first. Should I practise moving the toe directly under the shifter? (I'm not sure if maybe I have my shifter set too low or something, or if my feet are just too big. heh Size 11.5-12.)

[Tonik]

I use my heel.

[hiro]

13 minutes ago, Tonik said:

I use my heel.

Eh? Heel-toe shifter? (I use my heel to get into neutral before starting the engine. Positive neutral finder is nice.)

[Tonik]

21 minutes ago, hiro said:

Heel-toe shifter?

Yea, like a boss.

[Helmutt]

I almost always ride on the balls of my feet unless I'm slabbing or putting around town.  Just do what works for you, but I think you're overcooking the fundamentals.  Just know that once you get comfy with "proper" cornering you'll want to ride on the balls of your feet for better control of your body position, and to keep your toes further away from the asphalt in a lean.

I typically pivot my foot out and under the shifter with the peg in the arch of my boot.  My right gets bored since I rarely every use my rear brake unless I need to stop asap.

Edited June 14, 2016 by Hellmutt

[jdonn]

^This!!!!!

[hiro]

2 hours ago, Isaac's Papa said:

GP shift, like a bawse!!

I tried that for a short time when I was a newer rider. I felt that it helped me to get into 2nd gear easier, since my bike has a very short first gear. After switching back to non-GP shifting so I would be able to ride any random bike, I used to have trouble when I wanted to accelerate faster. I tended to kick down and downshift because it just felt natural to do it! It took a while, but I think I'm mostly over that now. 

[hiro]

17 hours ago, Hellmutt said:

Just know that once you get comfy with "proper" cornering you'll want to ride on the balls of your feet for better control of your body position, and to keep your toes further away from the asphalt in a lean.

I typically pivot my foot out and under the shifter with the peg in the arch of my boot.  My right gets bored since I rarely every use my rear brake unless I need to stop asap.

That is what I do. When not shifting or braking, the balls of my feet are on the pegs. At a stop, I usually slide my foot forward so that the heel catches on the peg and my toe is to the side of the shifter. (Short first gear, so I want to be ready to shift.) 

The concept of keeping the toes away from the ground is partly why I'm asking about sliding the toe directly under the shifter. Not that I'm leaning that far yet, if ever. (I guess at a very high level, you might also consider drag from the toe sticking out?)

I've been trying to use my rear brake more since my front brake isn't as strong as I'd like it to be. (A side effect of the ABS system as far as I know.) The way I try to use the rear brake is to transfer weight forward, if the clutch is in, before switching to the front brake. I lowered the brake lever/pedal to reduce the possibility of dragging or pressing to hard initially. (I read that some people let some air into the line or use weaker pads to make the rear brake less grabby.)

[Helmutt]

1 hour ago, hiro said:

That is what I do. When not shifting or braking, the balls of my feet are on the pegs. At a stop, I usually slide my foot forward so that the heel catches on the peg and my toe is to the side of the shifter. (Short first gear, so I want to be ready to shift.)

The concept of keeping the toes away from the ground is partly why I'm asking about sliding the toe directly under the shifter. Not that I'm leaning that far yet, if ever. (I guess at a very high level, you might also consider drag from the toe sticking out?)

I've been trying to use my rear brake more since my front brake isn't as strong as I'd like it to be. (A side effect of the ABS system as far as I know.) The way I try to use the rear brake is to transfer weight forward, if the clutch is in, before switching to the front brake. I lowered the brake lever/pedal to reduce the possibility of dragging or pressing to hard initially. (I read that some people let some air into the line or use weaker pads to make the rear brake less grabby.)

You could reduce the rear sprocket a few teeth to help counter the oddly short ratio 1st gear, would make it a "little" better and would help to pull some revs down at highway speeds as well.  Maybe up the front sprocket a tooth too if there's room inside the cover.  Don't worry about shifting gears in a corner, and you wont have to worry about your toes dragging.  The more you adapt to the bike, the better you'll understand the gearing to get you through a corner.   Track time will show you all you need to know about what it can/can't do.

I think the bigger issue with lacking front brake power is the anemic caliper and only having single sided front braking.  With ABS there's little chance to lock the front with the OEM setup, which is good for new riders ( this bikes most intended market in the U.S. ).   "Settling" the bike in with the rear brake isn't a horrible idea, but shouldn't be done in a hurry, and shouldn't become a habit - probably best you just get used to braking at the front when setting up for a corner, then releasing the front brake just before corner entry.  Decelerating before you brake will setup the suspension enough that you wont need the rear brake.  All the novice group trackdays I've been through always advise the riders to forget about the rear brake all together.   All of your braking power will always be on the front wheel BEFORE YOU TIP IN, along with decelerating.  Stabbing the brakes mid corner is NOT something you want to practice, it will eventually put you on the deck.

Lastly, don't ever allow air into a brake system.....rear brake or not.  If you ever do need to use both to stop asap, you want them working at their best potential, but some pedal adjustment to keep from dragging the rear brake is ok.   Just keep it within reach for rare moments you do need it.

As for "weaker" pads, the only thing that comes to my mind are the OEM organics that come on the bike.  Probably the weakest pads with the least bite that I know of

Edited June 15, 2016 by Hellmutt

[hiro]

Oh, right! I guess if I ever did lean so far, I wouldn't be shifting anyway! 

I did reduce the rear sprocket by 2 teeth, but my new rear tire is also slightly shorter, so it's probably equivalent to at least subtracting one tooth. 

I try to keep in mind that engine braking is basically the same as applying rear brake. (That raises other questions for another time. Like braking/engine braking strategies going up or down hills, with or without curves.)

As far as the rear brake goes for street riding and emergency preparedness, I can feel a significant difference in stopping power when adding the rear brake. However, when I do try to apply it fast, sometimes I trigger the ABS. I seam to be able to modulate the brakes better only using the front or by starting with the rear. If I start with the front then add the rear, I end up slowing down quicker than planned. 

[Tonik]

2 hours ago, hiro said:

 

I've been trying to use my rear brake more since my front brake isn't as strong as I'd like it to be. (A side effect of the ABS system as far as I know.) The way I try to use the rear brake is to transfer weight forward, if the clutch is in, before switching to the front brake. I lowered the brake lever/pedal to reduce the possibility of dragging or pressing to hard initially. (I read that some people let some air into the line or use weaker pads to make the rear brake less grabby.)

No to everything in that paragraph.

No to using the rear except in a panic stop, or trail braking into a corner. If you want to transfer weight to the front then do staged braking. Apply a little bit of front...apply a little bit more. But I don't see the need especially with ABS.  The ABS does not lower braking power unless it is kicking in to stop the tire from sliding. And the way Kaw's ABS works it is actually giving you more braking power if you use just the front, because it applies a little rear for you automagically.

And certainly no to putting air in the lines.

 

Edited June 15, 2016 by Tonik

[hiro]

44 minutes ago, Tonik said:

No to everything in that paragraph.

No to using the rear except in a panic stop, or trail braking into a corner. If you want to transfer weight to the front then do staged braking. Apply a little bit of front...apply a little bit more. But I don't see the need especially with ABS.  The ABS does not lower braking power unless it is kicking in to stop the tire from sliding. And the way Kaw's ABS works it is actually giving you more braking power if you use just the front, because it applies a little rear for you automagically.

And certainly no to putting air in the lines.

 

The Ninja 300 does not have linked brakes at all as far as I know. If we were not so far apart, I'd let you test my front brake. Others have complained of the same issue. The non-ABS version has a firmer lever feel than the ABS version, no matter what you do. Using two fingers, I have to give it quite a squeeze to stop fast. I think the only time I might have triggered the front ABS was when trying to stop quick over a lumpy road. (Could have been the crappy head bearings for all I know.) 

[2talltim]

Do you have one or two disk in the front? I'm not familiar with the 300.

[hiro]

14 minutes ago, 2talltim said:

Do you have one or two disk in the front? I'm not familiar with the 300.

This is from Kawasaki: 

Front Brakes

Single 290mm petal-type disc with two-piston hydraulic caliper, ABS

 

[jschaf]

I see from your posts that you are prone to overthinking everything so I'll get in there with you & help you overthink. Moving your foot laterally is just wasted motion. If you have to think about this matter every time you shift it is detracting from what you should be paying attention to (the road). You should have your shift lever adjusted so that you can snick a shift & not even have to think about it.

[what]

I'll tell you that on my non-abs bike, if I need to stop quick the rear tire isn't even making contact with the pavement. You may get a little more use out of the rear in an emergency situation with linked ABS but I'm not sure how much since I don't know how the computer deals with percentages and so on. Air in the lines can kill you, don't do it.

 

As for shifting, you'll figure out what's comfortable and go from there. You just started riding this spring right? So your brain is still trying to process everything as separate actions because it's not muscle memory yet. It's good trying to get into the right habits early but it's also good to know when to just go do something and learn on your own. Like JSchaf said, you want to be at a point where you're not thinking about what your feet are doing, they just do what you need them to and the only way you'll get there is by riding.

 

On the topic of engine braking vs active braking, I pretty much think of it like this:

• If I'm charging corners and late-braking, trying to ride like I'm on a race track, I'll use my front brake to set corner entry speed.
• If I feel like I'm coming into a corner a little too hot, I will either use a little bit of front brake before setting my line and dipping into the corner, or I will trail brake rolling into the corner (still need practice on this one).
• If I've decided on my pace for the day and want to run at a constant speed/rhythm, I will stick the bike in 2nd/3rd gear (will be different for you) and just let the engine brake for me. Essentially if I don't need to stop suddenly and the deceleration period is fairly loose, I won't ever touch my brakes.

Edited June 16, 2016 by what

[ReconRat]

Made me think.... I'm either foot back and stay there to ride about, or foot forward ready to shift quickly. Reversing shift from forward position, I'll obviously go out and under or over without moving foot back. But I ride a standard, so what do I know...

 

[Wolfman1]

15 hours ago, jschaf said:

I see from your posts that you are prone to overthinking everything so I'll get in there with you & help you overthink. Moving your foot laterally is just wasted motion. If you have to think about this matter every time you shift it is detracting from what you should be paying attention to (the road). You should have your shift lever adjusted so that you can snick a shift & not even have to think about it.

^This.  I was going to ask whether you have looked to see where your foot is at when you shift.  Its important to have your shift lever adjusted accordingly. If there is any hesitation in getting your toe under the shifter then that is a problem.  I had to adjust mine because I was wearing leather riding boots with thick soles that hindered my foot from getting under the shifter.  I picked up a pair of sport riding boots and what a difference!  That said, I had to then readjust my shifter back down because my new boot was much smaller at the toe.  You shouldn't have to look down for foot position or think about shifting, it should just feel natural and shifting should occur with little effort.

[Helmutt]

These guys all have valid points Hiro.  Muscle memory will take hold eventually, but in the beginning there will be an adjustment period and you'll definitely over compensate these simple movements.  So be it.  Just part of the learning curve.  This is no different than finding the friction zone of your clutch and shrinking the time it takes to get the bike rolling without a stall while keeping it pointed in the right direction and looking about for potential hazards...all at the same time.  Once you train your brain to do everything in conjunction it will feel so natural you wont have to think about any step of the process, only about what you want the bike to do.

I only advised to look into track time to get you used to proper body position WHILE you learn to finesse your fundamentals.

Edited June 17, 2016 by Hellmutt

[hiro]

I'm into the beginning of my 2nd year of riding. I don't have to think to move my foot while I'm riding. I'm thinking about it now so that, if there's a better way, I can start to ingrain it. I can't adjust the shift lever closer or further. I can only move it higher or lower. Since I got the bike, I've moved it lower. Otherwise I have to use muscle tension to hold my foot over the lever when I'm about the press down. 

[shadyone]

I honestly don't know what info with my feet no just do it. Also don't look at the tax much either just go by sound and feel. Same with gears. I don't keep track of which one I'm In. All comes in time.

The one thing I like to do on the street no matter how spirited the ride is. I rarely use the brakes. I downshift and engine break. Doing this while setting up for a corner will allow you to maintain a healthy level of safety whole also having fun.

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