Supermotos on MidOhio

[Helmutt]

Planning to take my KTM to MidO this year since I've traded off my ninja.   I'm a novice rider with a few roadcourse trackdays, and several cart trackdays under my belt, but not fast by any means....so I wont be jumping up to "I" anytime soon.   That being said, I know novice instructors only teach sportbike body position ( lean inside, knee down ) but I truly prefer to ride my supermoto in motard/dirt fashion ( upright bp, inside leg out ).   Anyone forsee this being a problem?  Is motard style even a good idea there with the size/speeds of the track, or will they make me commit to conventional body position?  

I'm not a complete noob, but if they're going to make me ride sport style, I'll definitely need some tank grip pads and practice at it in advance with this bike - just feels so alien to me on it, vs a sportbike.  Just my dirt roots protesting I guess.

Any insight?  Advice? 

[TimTheAzn]

Isn't that style for super tight corners like the ones found on motocross and cart tracks? I'm not sure you'd even need to stick your leg out on a super moto at Mid-Ohio. But then again I haven't ridden a dirt bike since I was knee high to a duck and havent kept up on dirt bike style riding techniques.

[Helmutt]

Just habit when I've got the bike leaned over to keep my leg out should it lowside.   You're probably right about not needing to, but I've got a feeling CR's may not dig the way I'd be riding it.  Maybe I'm just overcooking the whole idea, but I guess I can just roll the dice riding how I like until there's an issue?

[cOoTeR]

What size/model ktm do you have? My biggest concern would be if the motor could handle being as high in the revs as it would be on a track like midohio if it's one of the dirtbike supermotos. My crf 450 supermoto tops out at 90 mph and would be topped out pretty quick on the straight of Mid-Ohio. Might be an issue coming into that turn at the end of the straight with other bikes doing almost double that coming up on you. The top of the bike leg out style seems to work best with a slower later entry and early gas tighter exit type of line to get on the gas earlier on tight low speed tracks. While sportbikes tend to run a fairly 50/50 line to keep speed up. So people on other bikes might not understand the lines your running if they've never been around supermotos and you'll look very unpredictable to them.  

With that being said if you watch the European supermoto races they run on bigger more open tracks like mid ohio. The European riders don't really do the leg out or knee out style on the fast  paved areas. They kind of do a mix of both and ride in a neutral body position with legs in, feet on pegs, butt cheek off seat towards the inside and leaning towards the inside slightly forward and upright over the bars. They run a more sport bike style line as well. 

I just started riding and racing supermoto a few months ago so take my experience with a grain of salt. I've found when riding on the street or in the more open corners on the track the above style is more smooth/stable and faster for me. Even hanging off the side knee out is a little faster than leg out but with the dirtbike style suspension and high bars make it feel a little unstable which affects speed. I just went to socal supermoto school. The guy running the school Brian said that the track style and what works for you dictates riding style more than anything else. So I'd say go to the track day if your confident your motor will handle it. Try different styles to find what works for you. What works in one corner might not work in another so don't be afraid to try different things. Be prepared for people that are slower than you in the corners blowing by you in the straights only to hold you up in the corners. No matter what style you choose people are going to tell you your doing it wrong. But as long as your being safe, doing what works for you and having fun they can screw off. 

[Helmutt]

5 hours ago, cOoTeR said:

What size/model ktm do you have? My biggest concern would be if the motor could handle being as high in the revs as it would be on a track like midohio if it's one of the dirtbike supermotos. My crf 450 supermoto tops out at 90 mph and would be topped out pretty quick on the straight of Mid-Ohio. Might be an issue coming into that turn at the end of the straight with other bikes doing almost double that coming up on you. The top of the bike leg out style seems to work best with a slower later entry and early gas tighter exit type of line to get on the gas earlier on tight low speed tracks. While sportbikes tend to run a fairly 50/50 line to keep speed up. So people on other bikes might not understand the lines your running if they've never been around supermotos and you'll look very unpredictable to them.  

With that being said if you watch the European supermoto races they run on bigger more open tracks like mid ohio. The European riders don't really do the leg out or knee out style on the fast  paved areas. They kind of do a mix of both and ride in a neutral body position with legs in, feet on pegs, butt cheek off seat towards the inside and leaning towards the inside slightly forward and upright over the bars. They run a more sport bike style line as well. 

I just started riding and racing supermoto a few months ago so take my experience with a grain of salt. I've found when riding on the street or in the more open corners on the track the above style is more smooth/stable and faster for me. Even hanging off the side knee out is a little faster than leg out but with the dirtbike style suspension and high bars make it feel a little unstable which affects speed. I just went to socal supermoto school. The guy running the school Brian said that the track style and what works for you dictates riding style more than anything else. So I'd say go to the track day if your confident your motor will handle it. Try different styles to find what works for you. What works in one corner might not work in another so don't be afraid to try different things. Be prepared for people that are slower than you in the corners blowing by you in the straights only to hold you up in the corners. No matter what style you choose people are going to tell you your doing it wrong. But as long as your being safe, doing what works for you and having fun they can screw off. 

It's a 625 SMC.  I plan to gear the bike, but ( without checking ) I believe it's currently 16/40.  If there's room at the output shaft, I'd like to try and get it to 17/38.  With it's current ratios, it should break 105 now ( maybe not with my 280 pounds on it ) but the gearing change would help ensure it's not going to be flat out the entire backstraight.  I knew I'd be staying out of the raceline on the straights, and already planned to hug the inside coping at T1/T4/T11/T15 so I'm easier to pass off the exits.  I'll ride as predictable as possible and hold my lines.  Dont want to burn the bike up, just there to have some fun.  I've hardly ridden it outside of cart tracks, other than infrequent jaunts around my local backroads or at MidO's vintage days, but I've always ridden it motard style when I have had it out.  Like I said, I'm probably overthinking this since it's Novice group ruling, so I'll be held up in the corners and getting blitzed on the straights.  I'll get some tank pads on it for some grip and try working with sport bp to help feel it out a bit beforehand.

Edited March 3, 2017 by Hellmutt

[cOoTeR]

Let me know how it goes? 

[redkow97]

Some people may disagree with me on this, but I think you will do better on the straights to stay where you're expected, and not move right, then have to move back left into other traffic trying to set up for the end of the straight in the same space you are.

I would ride 4' from the left side of the track, leaving a little room for people to come around you on your left, and a LOT of room for them to pass you on the right. (which would be the courteous move, on their part)

The worst-case scenario for you is two riders coming up on you, riding nose-to-tail.  The front rider sees you, but the guy on his ass doesn't.  If the front rider waits until the last second to go around you, the guy on his ass may not react quickly enough to avoid you.  I lifted the rear wheel on my F3 when I was the guy on the other rider's ass.  Lesson learned.  Almost the hard way.

But having a slower bike move across the track to set up for a turn is more dangerous, IMHO.  Just leave room to be passed on either side.  I would honestly be looking behind me if I were on a bike with a 100 mph top speed.  I wouldn't advise you to do so, but I would...

[blue03636]

^I agree, you should hold the race line rather than going from side to side on a straight to enter the next corner.

[TimTheAzn]

There were some KTM 390's running in my group at summit. They held the race line which is to the left on the front straight of summit point, and it made them predictable. They would stay there and everyone else would pass them on the right and move back to the race line. No issues. 

[what]

I'd say stay on race line for sure. People will get by when they can. 

Also, I'm guessing you'd be in Novice? More than likely you'd have a control rider with you at all times if you're slower on the straights than the majority of the rest of the pack. 

[cOoTeR]

It might not be a bad idea to get a hold of the organizers and let them know your going to be on a supermoto. Maybe they can pair you up with a control rider that has supermoto experience. Also that way the control riders can have a heads up that your going to be out there on a supermoto. It shouldn't be a problem at every track day there is someone there that's slower than everyone else and everyone works around everyone else to keep it smooth and safe. The only trophy your going to bring home from a track day is your bike in the same condition you brought it there in and that has nothing to do with being faster but everything to do with being safe. 

[Helmutt]

8 hours ago, cOoTeR said:

Let me know how it goes? 

Will do man.

[Helmutt]

5 hours ago, redkow97 said:

Some people may disagree with me on this, but I think you will do better on the straights to stay where you're expected, and not move right, then have to move back left into other traffic trying to set up for the end of the straight in the same space you are.

I would ride 4' from the left side of the track, leaving a little room for people to come around you on your left, and a LOT of room for them to pass you on the right. (which would be the courteous move, on their part)

The worst-case scenario for you is two riders coming up on you, riding nose-to-tail.  The front rider sees you, but the guy on his ass doesn't.  If the front rider waits until the last second to go around you, the guy on his ass may not react quickly enough to avoid you.  I lifted the rear wheel on my F3 when I was the guy on the other rider's ass.  Lesson learned.  Almost the hard way.

But having a slower bike move across the track to set up for a turn is more dangerous, IMHO.  Just leave room to be passed on either side.  I would honestly be looking behind me if I were on a bike with a 100 mph top speed.  I wouldn't advise you to do so, but I would...

 

4 hours ago, blue03636 said:

^I agree, you should hold the race line rather than going from side to side on a straight to enter the next corner.

 

3 hours ago, TimTheAzn said:

There were some KTM 390's running in my group at summit. They held the race line which is to the left on the front straight of summit point, and it made them predictable. They would stay there and everyone else would pass them on the right and move back to the race line. No issues. 

 

3 hours ago, what said:

I'd say stay on race line for sure. People will get by when they can. 

Also, I'm guessing you'd be in Novice? More than likely you'd have a control rider with you at all times if you're slower on the straights than the majority of the rest of the pack. 

I'm definitely going to be in novice, but I've ridden MidO before.  Not exactly seasoned, but I'm almost certain I wont be the slowest rider out there, even on a short geared bike.  I've seen riders on liter bikes barely running that backstraight at 90 and they had no dedicated CR rolling with them ( that I saw anyway ).  I just recall the CRs leading the extra slow folk around seperately, and they'd always hug the coping to keep out of the race line.  STT at Putnam treated the slower riders the same way MidO does.   My primary concerns were the favored motard riding style, which may not even be an issue at the speeds we'll be running there, and my track position exiting the corners.

You guys all may be right and the CRs advise I ride my own pace ON the race line....I'm just trying to not make myself an obstacle for faster riders.  It is novice group afterall - so there's typically not nearly as much experience as there is horsepower running free out there.  

[Helmutt]

2 hours ago, cOoTeR said:

It might not be a bad idea to get a hold of the organizers and let them know your going to be on a supermoto. Maybe they can pair you up with a control rider that has supermoto experience. Also that way the control riders can have a heads up that your going to be out there on a supermoto. It shouldn't be a problem at every track day there is someone there that's slower than everyone else and everyone works around everyone else to keep it smooth and safe. The only trophy your going to bring home from a track day is your bike in the same condition you brought it there in and that has nothing to do with being faster but everything to do with being safe. 

After thought is I may bring my Sprint and tech it in as a backup bike.  I just dont want to bang on it too much, nor do I revel in tossing a 590 pound bike around lap after lap....but I'd hate to get there and find the KTM is overwhelmed to the point I miss out on the rest of the day.  So the Triumph would be better than sitting out the afternoon sessions

[blue03636]

If you're in novice you will be behind a cr for at least the first 4 sessions. 

[Helmutt]

26 minutes ago, blue03636 said:

If you're in novice you will be behind a cr for at least the first 4 sessions. 

For sure.  It's the afternoon sessions when we're "cut loose" that I'm more curious about

[blue03636]

You'll be fine. They let them in I group. Just follow the race line.

[Helmutt]

Just now, blue03636 said:

You'll be fine. They let them in I group. Just follow the race line.

I think so too.  Sometimes my mind runs off.  I'm kind of an idea overcookin', semi-OCD sufferin', perpetually preplanning, eclectic sumbitch

[ludwb675]

16 hours ago, blue03636 said:

If you're in novice you will be behind a cr for at least the first 4 sessions. 

 

16 hours ago, Hellmutt said:

For sure.  It's the afternoon sessions when we're "cut loose" that I'm more curious about

 

Last year there was no 'cutting loose'. They did control riding every session; morning and afternoon. Good for new novice but bad for experienced novice. They really need 4 groups but just isn't enough time in the day to do that. 

[Helmutt]

3 hours ago, ludwb675 said:

 

 

Last year there was no 'cutting loose'. They did control riding every session; morning and afternoon. Good for new novice but bad for experienced novice. They really need 4 groups but just isn't enough time in the day to do that. 

That kind of sucks.  Was one of the best parts with STT and MidO years prior.  The CRs would still meander through the packs to keep an eye on everyone, but we pretty much got to run as hard as we liked after a parade lap every afternoon session.  I heard Motoseries runs their program like MidO now does, where they keep novice groups regimented and leap frog riders.  Haven't ridden a roadcourse since 2015, so apparently some changes have been made.  No huge deal breaker since I'm on a slow bike now.

[blue03636]

3 minutes ago, Hellmutt said:

That kind of sucks.  Was one of the best parts with STT and MidO years prior.  The CRs would still meander through the packs to keep an eye on everyone, but we pretty much got to run as hard as we liked after a parade lap every afternoon session.  I heard Motoseries runs their program like MidO now does, where they keep novice groups regimented and leap frog riders.  Haven't ridden a roadcourse since 2015, so apparently some changes have been made.  No huge deal breaker since I'm on a slow bike now.

Motoseris is like STT but sadly they only wanted to run at Nelson ledges so I doubt they will be back around.

[TimTheAzn]

21 hours ago, blue03636 said:

If you're in novice you will be behind a cr for at least the first 4 sessions. 

lolz, I wasnt a big fan of that. I switched to the "faster" novice group and asked for a bump after the 2nd session if I recall correctly.

I like how N2 runs it, CR's on track are pretty lax, dont hold you up much, let you run at your own pace (still cant pass them without the wave-by). If you want some one on one ask a CR before the session starts. Sometimes they will randomly find you and tag along and watch you and give you tips.

Edited March 8, 2017 by TimTheAzn

[MidgetTodd]

Heeeeeeyyyyyy now. You remember what I brought out to play with one of your days there ........ 

BP is a big teaching item, thats why I just played on the Sumo instead of coach on it. Todd wouldn't let me coach on it only ride it. Thats why I only coached on the GSXR.

BP taught race style yes, your BP should match. Mid O is not a place for dirtbike style. You will most likely break your leg if something goes wrong.

Line, for gods sake stay on the line! Race line is also a teaching item, harder to do during novice follow the leader sessions when one guy isnt following and being off line makes you a hazzard and unpredictable.

Novice has changed a bit since your last time and the cut loose afternoon doesnt happen instead we go in the groups but kinda let the group go their pace the last 2 sessions and the coach kinda chases and jumps in front as needed. 

My 450 topped at 100. Yea Id get ate up on the back straight but Id get it all right back in the turns.

Mark may make some changes this season too so could be different yet again but either way stay in the race line and hold your own no looking back, its the rider behind you that has the task of making a clean pass. If you keep looking back and getting of line you make that pass dangerous. 

[Helmutt]

3 hours ago, TimTheAzn said:

lolz, I wasnt a big fan of that. I switched to the "faster" novice group and asked for a bump after the 2nd session if I recall correctly.

I like how N2 runs it, CR's on track are pretty lax, dont hold you up much, let you run at your own pace (still cant pass them without the wave-by). If you want some one on one ask a CR before the session starts. Sometimes they will randomly find you and tag along and watch you and give you tips.

I got a few pieces of pitlane advice at MidO last time there.  I had a habit of braking way early after the kink.  Wasn't used to judging braking distance at those speeds, and with only the 1 trackday there, I never got to where I could setup consistently for T6.  I'd also run too deep down into 9, which botched my line through the rest of the esses.  I remember by the time I was getting braking/entry points decently figured out the last couple sessions, my legs were quitting and I'd have to pit in early.  The instructors were awesome at remembering who was doing what wrong, and advising us throughout the afternoon once the classes were done.  

[Helmutt]

1 hour ago, MidgetTodd said:

Heeeeeeyyyyyy now. You remember what I brought out to play with one of your days there ........ 

BP is a big teaching item, thats why I just played on the Sumo instead of coach on it. Todd wouldn't let me coach on it only ride it. Thats why I only coached on the GSXR.

BP taught race style yes, your BP should match. Mid O is not a place for dirtbike style. You will most likely break your leg if something goes wrong.

Line, for gods sake stay on the line! Race line is also a teaching item, harder to do during novice follow the leader sessions when one guy isnt following and being off line makes you a hazzard and unpredictable.

Novice has changed a bit since your last time and the cut loose afternoon doesnt happen instead we go in the groups but kinda let the group go their pace the last 2 sessions and the coach kinda chases and jumps in front as needed. 

My 450 topped at 100. Yea Id get ate up on the back straight but Id get it all right back in the turns.

Mark may make some changes this season too so could be different yet again but either way stay in the race line and hold your own no looking back, its the rider behind you that has the task of making a clean pass. If you keep looking back and getting of line you make that pass dangerous. 

Thanks man, was hoping you'd chime in since you're sort of a local authority there and had ridden a supermoto there as well.  I'll get myself used to a more sport style riding on mine this summer so it's not a totally alien feeling come time for the trackday....and it may prove to be easier than I expect since it's much faster speeds than a cartway.  I'm definitely less worried about holding up traffic if we'll stay grouped the entire day.  And I definitely wont be looking around either, I know to keep my eyes pointed where I plan to go.

I'll explain my situation when they break us up into groups and see where I'll fit best within the varying novice groups.  Depending on pace, I can always bump up or down should I feel held up or struggling to keep up