gt-titan Posted March 8, 2005 Report Share Posted March 8, 2005 (before i start it's a auto tranny with o/d aode, with b/m over haul with b/m shift kit) well the tranny went out of my winter car, had a few more car prob with family cars, now this. ill start at the beginning, went to leave work put my car in first gear and the car would not move, so i put it in drive and it moved like normal so i stopped put it in first again, nothing so im thinking how can i be low on tranny fuild, i put it in reverse same outcome so i rev it up in reverse and it grabs real hard so i check the fluid , it's fine. i go into drive to head home i get to a light put it in first and it moves but it sounds like there is something rubbing as the wheels turn i shift to sec gear the noise go's away then to drive no noise, so i pull over and go to all gears , there is noise in reverse and first but it doesn't feel right at all . the noise is like as the wheels turn and it sounds like metal so i just don't know (rebuild has about 5500 miles on it) and what would it take to swap this for a c4 tranny. thanks, sorry for going on just not happy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gt-titan Posted March 8, 2005 Author Report Share Posted March 8, 2005 well i have been looking and messing with things like lose tranny bolts and such. went for a drive all gears are woking now and the noise is still there i can't make it out sounds like somthing is rubbing i don't know what a torque converter sounds like if the fins brake, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave1647545494 Posted March 9, 2005 Report Share Posted March 9, 2005 if you had the same problem in 1st and reverse the band is going bad... I would take it back to whoever rebuilt it and have them look at it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desperado Posted March 9, 2005 Report Share Posted March 9, 2005 Ok, all is not lost I don't believe. Remember that Drive is just automatic shift from first to second to third. Not a different gear. SO, it sounds to me like you either have a clogged filter, causing the need to rev the motor to build enough pressure for the clutches to engage. Reverse BTW requires more pressure than any of the forward gears, at least with the trannies that I'm familiar with so I will go on that premis. First thig you need to do is drain it, and put a filter in it. I do realize that it just got rebuild, but if the guy that rebuilt it had his $3.00 an hour asswipe clean it out (and remember what it was doing to need rebuilt to begin with most likely put shit all throught it) that it could easily have dirt in it. Second reason I am thinking dirt is that drive starts off in first, and does second and first. If you shift it into drive it goes into first reguardless, and if it will not move in drive but will in first, which is the same gear, the only difference is where the valve body is flowing fluid through it, it has got either dirt in the valve body, or the valve body had fluid flowing between channels, basically caused by a bad gasket or improperly tightened valve body bolts allowing enough slop for a leak. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rl Posted March 9, 2005 Report Share Posted March 9, 2005 Manual first and second engage a band as well as the clutch packs, they do this to meet DOT standards. On cars with automatic transmissions DOT requires that with no power you still have working forward and reverse gears (hense manual gears). When you put it in D it is just engaging the clutch packs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gt-titan Posted March 9, 2005 Author Report Share Posted March 9, 2005 ok today it is like i never had a problem, it is shifting hard, so im changing fluid and filter this weekend, anything i should check when im in there? the tranny has 5800 on the rebuild, i got the car in n/y and the guy i got it from had the work done there i also have a deep fluid pan on it to hold two extra qts, lets hope it's dirt. thanks . (i still don't know what the hell that noise was cause it's gone today to, very weird) [ 09. March 2005, 06:26 PM: Message edited by: GT-TITAN ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave1647545494 Posted March 9, 2005 Report Share Posted March 9, 2005 if its easy to get them out pull the servos and clean them up too sometimes they stick... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desperado Posted March 10, 2005 Report Share Posted March 10, 2005 Originally posted by rl: Manual first and second engage a band as well as the clutch packs, they do this to meet DOT standards. On cars with automatic transmissions DOT requires that with no power you still have working forward and reverse gears (hense manual gears). When you put it in D it is just engaging the clutch packs.WTF are you talking about? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rl Posted March 10, 2005 Report Share Posted March 10, 2005 Originally posted by desperado: WTF are you talking about? Have you ever worked on a AODE, 4R70W, or E40d? To clarify - on ELECTRONIC Automatics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trouble Maker Posted March 10, 2005 Report Share Posted March 10, 2005 Originally posted by rl: ...they do this to meet DOT standards. On cars with automatic transmissions DOT requires that with no power you still have working forward and reverse gears (hense manual gears).Weird, when the TCU took a shit on my talon it acted the same way in D (or OD) or the manual gears. I only had third gear in forward. I guess I still technically had A forward and reverse gear, but my 1, and 2 aren't manual, they still go through the TCU. I would have been in better shape had I still been able to shift to 1, and 2 manually. Tranny fluid heats up pretty quick when you have to start from a stop in third gear in an automatic car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rl Posted March 10, 2005 Report Share Posted March 10, 2005 Originally posted by Neo: Weird, when the TCU took a shit on my talon it acted the same way in D (or OD) or the manual gears. I only had third gear in forward. I guess I still technically had A forward and reverse gear, but my 1, and 2 aren't manual, they still go through the TCU. I would have been in better shape had I still been able to shift to 1, and 2 manually. Tranny fluid heats up pretty quick when you have to start from a stop in third gear in an automatic car. Yeah, I was talking specifically about his transmission. I'm sure other companaies do it differently, but they just have to be able to move the car forward and reverse with no power to the tranny. Like my truck for instance, I have JUST manual second with no power (that I can shift into). When both shift solenoids dont have power it is in first gear and the EPC is wide open (full line pressure) so I can take off in first gear and shift into second gear. If I where to try and push it into drive it would go back into first (but nothing bad would happen because the coast clutch would be disengaged). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desperado Posted March 10, 2005 Report Share Posted March 10, 2005 Originally posted by rl: Have you ever worked on a AODE, 4R70W, or E40d? To clarify - on ELECTRONIC Automatics.Right, the shift points and kickdown are electronic controlled. But its' still fluid powered, If the pump fails or if it has no fluid, it still will not go. I guess that we are not on the same page here. What you seem to be saying is that the tranny would work even if the motor was not running, which is not possible, the pump needs to be spinning. If you are referring to electric power, I can't see why it would matter, the engine wouldn't run if there was not electric in the vehicle, you at least need power to run the ignition. Not saying that the DOT always makes sence with their regulations. The way I understood the E40D is that the spool valve connected to the shift linkage opened the fluid flow up to engage 1st gear and is shifted from there electronically, so first was always first. Now I may be WAY the hell off on that too. But as far as the bands only being used when you manually selected gear and not when the computer selected the gear is a first. Unless that is in stuff newer than the E4OD. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rl Posted March 10, 2005 Report Share Posted March 10, 2005 ELECTRIC power to the transmission. Of course the engine would have to be running. Dont ask ME why, because I dont know, its a DOT thing. E40d's use a band in manual 1st and second AS WELL AS the clutches, in D they do not (thye just use clutches). AODE's engage the OD band in manual second (as well as the clutches). On my last E40d that I killed it would slip horribly in 2nd gear in D, in manual second it wouldnt, and this is why. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest racinbird Posted March 10, 2005 Report Share Posted March 10, 2005 The auto tranny still needs power- fluid coupling convertor and pressure lines to work. What I belive you are talking about is a default setting. When the computer sees an error in the trany and cant work right, it will drive in second or third gear ONLY. No choice in the matter. The computer does this for safety; so it can start from a stop and move at a decent speed to keep you from being stranded. Also there are variations in trannys but, D range typically use only one holding device, when you put in D1 or D2 it uses two holding devices. This allows for more holding force to keep from slipping. Also when sport mode or tow/haul mode type of circuit is applied, it will rasie line pressure to help hold the gear, also changes shift speed and harshness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gt-titan Posted March 10, 2005 Author Report Share Posted March 10, 2005 so should i change the fluid and just what happens, or is there other things i need to look at? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest racinbird Posted March 10, 2005 Report Share Posted March 10, 2005 Sounds like something came apart inside the tranny, one of the bands or something. I doubt a fluid change would do anything, you would of had to really overheated that fluid or something for it to be bad that soon. pull the stick and smell the fluid, see what color it is, should be redish, NOT DARK. Also rub some in your hand, look for metallic flakes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desperado Posted March 10, 2005 Report Share Posted March 10, 2005 OK, first changing the fuild is still a good idea Jeff, if iit's got dirt in the it can help that. Rob, now what you are saying finally hit me. I THRID gear the bands in a 4OD are NOT engaged, but as it goes up through the gears they are used. Just NOT in 3rd gear. I just confused as to what you were saying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rl Posted March 11, 2005 Report Share Posted March 11, 2005 Originally posted by racinbird: The auto tranny still needs power- fluid coupling convertor and pressure lines to work. What I belive you are talking about is a default setting. When the computer sees an error in the trany and cant work right, it will drive in second or third gear ONLY. No choice in the matter. The computer does this for safety; so it can start from a stop and move at a decent speed to keep you from being stranded. Also there are variations in trannys but, D range typically use only one holding device, when you put in D1 or D2 it uses two holding devices. This allows for more holding force to keep from slipping. Also when sport mode or tow/haul mode type of circuit is applied, it will rasie line pressure to help hold the gear, also changes shift speed and harshness. You can remove power 100% from a E40d and it will have a forward and reverse gear. The EPC is WIDE OPEN with no power, that means FULL line pressure. fluid coupling convertor and pressure lines to workExplain that one. The converter is all mechanical save for the converter clutch. The pump is mechanical. Pressure is a function of the pump and the EPC. If the EPC doesnt have power it remains wide open so it is going to have as much line pressure as the pump can provide all the time (which will destroy the pump in short order). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gt-titan Posted March 11, 2005 Author Report Share Posted March 11, 2005 if something came apart would it be fine one day and act up the next? or would it be messed up 100% ? thr it was like no problem i cuold shift it my self from 1st to drive then hit the over drive button, everythings good, i put it in drive it shifts good and hard still chirpping the tires from gear to gear, and i have reverse and 1st no problems, and no noise. but when i have the problem theres the noise, i pull it back to 1st won't move and i put it in reverse won't move , from drivewhen the car starts to move in 1st the noise is there it shifts to 2nd noise is gone. and if i rev it up in reverse or 1st it will fill like it might be slipping then grabs so hard it spins the tires. right now it is working fine, i just don't get it.... THANKS for everyones feed back if i find anything out ill let you know,and ill post what if any changes happen after i change the fluid. thanks again everyone. jeff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest racinbird Posted March 11, 2005 Report Share Posted March 11, 2005 Originally posted by rl: You can remove power 100% from a E40d and it will have a forward and reverse gear. The EPC is WIDE OPEN with no power, that means FULL line pressure. Explain that one. The converter is all mechanical save for the converter clutch. The pump is mechanical. Pressure is a function of the pump and the EPC. If the EPC doesnt have power it remains wide open so it is going to have as much line pressure as the pump can provide all the time (which will destroy the pump in short order). A torque convertor in an auto tranny is not a mech device in terms of direct drive. It still needs fluid pressure to work, thus fluid coupling. It has small fins/turbines inside that force fluid onto antoher, one ran from the inout shaft, bolted onto the fly wheel of the engine crankshaft and the other end of the convertor to the output shaft which delivers power to the tranny. The only direct mech link in a convertor is the tyranny pump gears built into the end of the convertor and the convertor clutch with locks to be direct 0% slippage. Thus how when you step on the gas the car really dosent move until you hit the stall speed which turns the tranny. Different designed/pitched fins make differnet stall speeds. I can see how a auto tranny can work w/out 12v power, but wont be 100% functional if its an electronic tranny. I dont know much about a ford tranny, I was refering to auto tranny basics. [ 11. March 2005, 06:30 PM: Message edited by: racinbird ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest racinbird Posted March 11, 2005 Report Share Posted March 11, 2005 A torque converter is a type of fluid coupling, which allows the engine to spin somewhat independently of the transmission. If the engine is turning slowly, such as when the car is idling at a stoplight, the amount of torque passed through the torque converter is very small, so keeping the car still requires only a light pressure on the brake pedal. If you were to step on the gas pedal while the car is stopped, you would have to press harder on the brake to keep the car from moving. This is because when you step on the gas, the engine speeds up and pumps more fluid into the torque converter, causing more torque to be transmitted to the wheels. The housing of the torque converter is bolted to the flywheel of the engine, so it turns at whatever speed the engine is running at. The fins that make up the pump of the torque converter are attached to the housing, so they also turn at the same speed as the engine. The cutaway below shows how everything is connected inside the torque converter. just go here, http://auto.howstuffworks.com/torque-converter1.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest racinbird Posted March 11, 2005 Report Share Posted March 11, 2005 Originally posted by GT-TITAN: if something came apart would it be fine one day and act up the next? or would it be messed up 100% ? thr it was like no problem i cuold shift it my self from 1st to drive then hit the over drive button, everythings good, i put it in drive it shifts good and hard still chirpping the tires from gear to gear, and i have reverse and 1st no problems, and no noise. but when i have the problem theres the noise, i pull it back to 1st won't move and i put it in reverse won't move , from drivewhen the car starts to move in 1st the noise is there it shifts to 2nd noise is gone. and if i rev it up in reverse or 1st it will fill like it might be slipping then grabs so hard it spins the tires. right now it is working fine, i just don't get it.... THANKS for everyones feed back if i find anything out ill let you know,and ill post what if any changes happen after i change the fluid. thanks again everyone. jeff Jeff, you could easily have a damged O ring seal inside the tranny, intermitent fluid pressure loss on one or more bands/clutches etc etc at any given time. Or a sticking solenoid or check ball, they sometimes use petruleum jelly type of material when rebulding to hold check balls and such pieces in place, it is suppoose to dissolve but could be gummed up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest racinbird Posted March 11, 2005 Report Share Posted March 11, 2005 rl, once rereading our posts, we need to elaborate "power" It can refer to battery voltage or it can mean engine power/torque. I was refering to engine power to make fluid pressure. no tranny line pressure, no go Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rl Posted March 12, 2005 Report Share Posted March 12, 2005 Originally posted by racinbird: A torque convertor in an auto tranny is not a mech device in terms of direct drive. It still needs fluid pressure to work, thus fluid coupling. It has small fins/turbines inside that force fluid onto antoher, one ran from the inout shaft, bolted onto the fly wheel of the engine crankshaft and the other end of the convertor to the output shaft which delivers power to the tranny. The only direct mech link in a convertor is the tyranny pump gears built into the end of the convertor and the convertor clutch with locks to be direct 0% slippage. Thus how when you step on the gas the car really dosent move until you hit the stall speed which turns the tranny. Different designed/pitched fins make differnet stall speeds. I can see how a auto tranny can work w/out 12v power, but wont be 100% functional if its an electronic tranny. I dont know much about a ford tranny, I was refering to auto tranny basics. I'm 100% aware of how a torque converter works. I am reffering to ELECTRIC power. as I said EARLIER, of course you need engine power to move. I never said it would be FULLY functional without 12v, I said it would move forwards and backwards. Reading comprehension is key, right before your post I posted, ELECTRIC power to the transmission. Of course the engine would have to be running. Dont ask ME why, because I dont know, its a DOT thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gt-titan Posted March 28, 2005 Author Report Share Posted March 28, 2005 OK UP DATE. the torque converter is no good. good news theres a guy that did a auto to t-5 swap, he now wants to go back to a AODE tranny because he is a bracket racer and he said his car went to shit after he did his swap, so we are trading all parts to do the swaps. and i will have a t-5 swap done in the next week or so.thanks to everyone who helped me out on this thing, all the info was a great help. it also gave me info on auto trannys i never knew. thanks again. jeff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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