Mowgli1647545497 Posted August 5, 2004 Report Share Posted August 5, 2004 Originally posted by Nitrousbird: Don't forget these flywheel numbers you are giving are calculated based on an estimated driveline loss. So you really should get an estimated flywheel number, not EXACT. Regardless, the LS6 w/ estimated driveline loss also comes in at above 405HP at the flywheel. That's the point I'm making....the LS2 from everything being said about it, should as well, and perhaps more-so. When you say a "couple" and I hear "2". Its alot more than 2 hp, rwhp or flywheel. We all use the same T56 and we all used the same driveline % when we'd debated this endlessly on the vette/svt forums in summer/fall 2002. I thought this was generally agreed upon by spring 03. Maybe when you say a "couple" you mean 10 to 20. I like the GTO's paint and hood scoops. And interior - BUT DAMN THEY NEED SOME BETTER WHEEL OPTIONS! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
recklessOP Posted August 5, 2004 Report Share Posted August 5, 2004 Originally posted by Neo: Lets be fair and not talk about the 5 less hp it makes for the last 200rpm and talk about the gobs more torque it makes across to whole entire rpm range until that last 500rpm. If those graphs are right the LS2 IS A MORE POWERFUL (and much smother on power delievery) engine than the LS6, period.what does this have to do with my post..? joe said the GTO should make more peak rwhp than the 03 cobra. i said otherwise... assuming phil's dyno chart is accurate: the LS6 makes more power than the LS2. the 03 cobra makes more power than the LS6. therefore the 03 cobra would make make more power than the LS2. once again, i am only talking about peak numbers. read what i quoted... yes, the LS2 makes more midrange torque. i never disputed that... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
recklessOP Posted August 5, 2004 Report Share Posted August 5, 2004 Originally posted by Neo: The GTO is a damn cool car and will be even cooler with more HP, but to compare it to a Cobra that's supercharged stock is kind of silly.why..? both (the 03 cobra and the LS2 GTO) make similar power (stock), both weigh roughly the same amount, and both are RWD performance coupes. what's wrong with comparing two cars that compete in the marketplace? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trouble Maker Posted August 5, 2004 Report Share Posted August 5, 2004 Originally posted by recklessOP: why..? both (the 03 cobra and the LS2 GTO) make similar power (stock), both weigh roughly the same amount, and both are RWD performance coupes. what's wrong with comparing two cars that compete in the marketplace?How likely is a Cobra owner to modify and race their car? How likely is a GTO owner to modify and race their car? Two totally different market segments. To most buyers a Cobra is a race car and a GTO is a fast 'luxury' coupe and I doubt you'd find very many people cross shoping these two cars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
recklessOP Posted August 5, 2004 Report Share Posted August 5, 2004 Originally posted by Neo: Two totally different market segments. To most buyers a Cobra is a race car and a GTO is a fast 'luxury' coupe and I doubt you'd find very many people cross shoping these two cars.curious, what are you basing that on..? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trouble Maker Posted August 5, 2004 Report Share Posted August 5, 2004 Originally posted by recklessOP: curious, what are you basing that on..?Did you even read my whole post or just the part that you needed to try and debase my argument? That's just my logic and the way I see the situation, I could be wrong but I obviously don't think so. Would Loren have ever bought a Cobra? Would any of the newer Cobra owners here have ever bought a GTO or did they even go look at one before they bought their cars? Lets have them answer this one, guys, chime in please. Still doesn’t deface the fact that it’s sour whatever to sour whatever and a bunch of people whining about the car that they like/drive/want is better than the other one (regardless if they are sold to different markets or not). Which was the basis of my original point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
recklessOP Posted August 5, 2004 Report Share Posted August 5, 2004 "Did you even read my whole post or just the part that you needed to try and debase my argument?" yes, did i miss something? the only reason i jumped on your earlier post was because you quoted me, and i didn't quite understand what you meant by it... "How likely is a Cobra owner to modify and race their car? How likely is a GTO owner to modify and race their car?" i don't know, that's why i asked. i don't really follow either car all that much, and i only know a few people that own them... "Lets have them answer this one, guys, chime in please." sounds good to me... smile.gif "Still doesn’t deface the fact that it’s sour whatever to sour whatever and a bunch of people whining about the car that they like/drive/want is better than the other one (regardless if they are sold to different markets or not). Which was the basis of my original point." fair enough. i didn't get into this thread to debate which car was better. i just questioned some of the hp claims... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
03STEED Posted August 5, 2004 Report Share Posted August 5, 2004 Now thats more like it!! I'd buy that one!! graemlins/thumb.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Pomade Posted August 5, 2004 Report Share Posted August 5, 2004 I didn't look into the GTOs before I purchased my Cobra. Even if I had, it wouldn't have made a difference, I'd still have went with the Cobra without a doubt. The GTO looks too much like a family sedan, IMO. That's one reason (and a fairly significant one) as to why I would rank the GTO below the 03/04 Cobras. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mensan Posted August 5, 2004 Report Share Posted August 5, 2004 Originally posted by Doug: that sucks for people who bought it this year, and want to keep their car stock Fixed. I think there is just as much POTENTIAL in this years model. Loren's is SCREAMING for a blower. I like the GTO. Yet I hate Pontiac...How's that for ironic? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nitrousbird Posted August 5, 2004 Report Share Posted August 5, 2004 I read a 2 page write up on the LS2 recently in Fastest Street Car magazine, going over some stuff GM engineers were saying about the LS2 vs. LS6. Basically, that dyno sheet is pretty worthless IMO. As I said before, the LS6 has been proven to make more power than what that sheet has said. How do they compare the LS2 to the LS6? LS2 has: - More displacment (365ci vs. 346) - Same redline - Higher compression - Higher flowing heads and intake - 90mm throttle body vs. LS6 75mm. - Better flowing exhaust - No AIR system (nice, one less thing to remove) - More efficent piston rings/ring land design for less parasitic loss Cam specs weren't given, but a .525 lift and probably similar to the LS6. Rockers weren't mentioned, but probably the same non-roller tip roller rockers. Bigger injectors as well. The LS2's block is also stronger, w/ thicker cylinder walls (very good news for people not wanting to re-sleeve their blocks), and is lighter. But my point is that looking at all of these improvements, I question how this motor is going to make less peak power than the LS6. It would only make logical sense that it will make more power everywhere, including PEAK power, than the LS6. Just because they don't rate it that way doesn't mean that's how things will turn out. Let's face it, when 305HP flywheel rated LS1's are putting down 315RWHP bone stock, the whole rating thing kinda goes out the window. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
recklessOP Posted August 6, 2004 Report Share Posted August 6, 2004 "But my point is that looking at all of these improvements, I question how this motor is going to make less peak power than the LS6." "Cam specs weren't given..." smile.gif "Let's face it, when 305HP flywheel rated LS1's are putting down 315RWHP bone stock, the whole rating thing kinda goes out the window." fair enough, but isn't just the fbody underrated? i've seen a few C5 dyno sheets, and they aren't putting down their flywheel ratings at the rear wheels... the last Z06 dyno sheet i saw read 342 rwhp, for a 385 hp car. using 15% as an estimate for drivetrain loss, that's ~15 hp off the official rating... i've seen high and low numbers for both engines... [ 06. August 2004, 12:51 PM: Message edited by: recklessOP ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tandm Posted August 6, 2004 Report Share Posted August 6, 2004 Here's some info on the cam Because the LS2 camshaft is less aggressive, lighter valves are unnecessary to keep the valve train stable all the way to LS2's 6600-rpm rev limiter. The rest of the LS2 valve gear is also the same as '01 LS6. The cam in the LS2 is similar to the '01 LS6 cam. It uses the same profile but the part number is new because the cam position sensor target was moved from the cam to the camshaft sprocket. Valve lift is .525-in. and duration at .050-in lift is 204o int/211o exh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
recklessOP Posted August 6, 2004 Report Share Posted August 6, 2004 "Because the LS2 camshaft is less aggressive..." "It uses the same profile..." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ORourke Posted August 6, 2004 Report Share Posted August 6, 2004 Same as the 01 LS6(rated at 385hp) cam, the newer 02+ 405hp ones are bigger. The additional displacement also makes it behave like a smaller cam. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conesmasher Posted August 6, 2004 Report Share Posted August 6, 2004 Originally posted by mesteno: bout time. new hood = sweet. Make it look even more like a grand am. graemlins/puke.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
recklessOP Posted August 6, 2004 Report Share Posted August 6, 2004 Originally posted by O'Rourke: Same as the 01 LS6(rated at 385hp) cam, the newer 02+ 405hp ones are bigger. The additional displacement also makes it behave like a smaller cam.assuming it uses that cam, a 400 hp rating seems perfectly reasonable to me. they've made some (small) improvements, and that explains the extra 15 hp. the mild cam, along with the extra cubes, explains the extra midrange torque... a bigger throttle body, different rings, and a little extra compression (0.4) isn't going to add any huge power. big improvements are going to come from one of two places, the cam or the heads. since we already know it has a mild cam, that leaves the cylinder heads. "higher flowing" doesn't tell us a whole lot... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty2Hotty Posted August 7, 2004 Report Share Posted August 7, 2004 Originally posted by Blowzilla: Wow.. that interior is ugly as shit. And I'm not skerred of the pig GTO, it's just as fat as my slobra. You shall fear me when I return ho! tongue.gif GTO's really aren't impressing me at all, I'd rather buy a used Z06 for the money or even a *gasp* FORD. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest h8tcivics Posted August 7, 2004 Report Share Posted August 7, 2004 the best part is that the LS2 has doesnt have to be superchargered to make power..ha ha ha h ah ha. Maybe I should wait a year before I get mine. I'm going over Sat and getting my new car. 6spd holden Manaro baby yeah!! with 0 miles on it mmmmmmmmmm LS1 mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BLACKBIRD99 Posted August 7, 2004 Report Share Posted August 7, 2004 Originally posted by recklessOP:[/QB] fair enough, but isn't just the fbody underrated? i've seen a few C5 dyno sheets, and they aren't putting down their flywheel ratings at the rear wheels... the last Z06 dyno sheet i saw read 342 rwhp, for a 385 hp car. using 15% as an estimate for drivetrain loss, that's ~15 hp off the official rating... [/QB]IRS really sucks some power for the C5's. My Dad's dynoed at 309 with a Corsa Indy exhaust. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
recklessOP Posted August 7, 2004 Report Share Posted August 7, 2004 Originally posted by BLACKBIRD99: IRS really sucks some power for the C5's.care to elaborate on that..? [ 08. August 2004, 12:46 AM: Message edited by: recklessOP ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
recklessOP Posted August 7, 2004 Report Share Posted August 7, 2004 Originally posted by Nitrousbird: As I said before, the LS6 has been proven to make more power than what that sheet has said.those were flywheel numbers. has anyone actually pulled a stock motor and put it on an engine dyno, or are we still guestimating drivetrain losses..? some make more, some make less... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kohones Posted August 10, 2004 Report Share Posted August 10, 2004 400 h.p. is enuff / I like the hood!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
High Octane Posted August 11, 2004 Report Share Posted August 11, 2004 I knew they would upgrade the brakes, only thing that isn't super cool on my car. I'm buying a set of brakes from GM next year and there going to be shinny red with my logo on um. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
High Octane Posted August 11, 2004 Report Share Posted August 11, 2004 Originally posted by h8tcivics: the best part is that the LS2 has doesnt have to be superchargered to make power..ha ha ha h ah ha. Maybe I should wait a year before I get mine. I'm going over Sat and getting my new car. 6spd holden Manaro baby yeah!! with 0 miles on it mmmmmmmmmm LS1 mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm So did you buy a GTO? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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