KlubFoot Posted December 10, 2003 Report Share Posted December 10, 2003 My question to everyone is, could I go mid to high 11's with the right setup and my stock 302 block and stock internals? If so, what kind of setup would you suggest to do this? Also, this is the setup I was contemplating as these parts are readily available to me for good prices... would I be able to hit the 11's? ported and polished FRPP Z Heads with 1.94 1.60 valves, 1.7 RR, e-303 cam, ported and polished cobra intake, 70mm tb, 73mm mas air with 30# inj, BBK CAI, 1 5/8 long tubes, o/r h-pipe, flowmaster catbacks, underdrive pulleys, 3.73, and novi 1000 pulleyed for 9lbs..... anything I'm missing? would this setup be capable of 11's? Please let me know and thanks for all your help! Another question... if a set of heads has a reccomended valve size, can you still use different sized valves, and can they be smaller then the reccomended size? For example, in the Ford Racing catalog the Z heads have a reccomended valve size of 2.02, 1.64... could I used 1.94, 1.60 instead without problems? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
20G TSi Posted December 10, 2003 Report Share Posted December 10, 2003 ported and polished FRPP Z Heads with 1.94 1.60 valves, 1.7 RR, e-303 cam, ported and polished cobra intake, 70mm tb, 73mm mas air with 30# inj, BBK CAI, 1 5/8 long tubes, o/r h-pipe, flowmaster catbacks, underdrive pulleys, 3.73, and novi 1000 pulleyed for 9lbs..... anything I'm missing? would this setup be capable of 11's? Please let me know and thanks for all your help!that setup should definately be in the low 11's@116-118mph with a set of 26" tall 8.5" slicks - in a full weight car. IMO, 9psi may be a bit much, if all you're wanting is mid 11's. I ran an old SN89 paxton (read: inefficient POS) at 5psi with a similar setup and ran 11.60's@116-118 all day long. What you're missing: * tuning stuff or atleast monitoring stuff (gauges, etc). Not absolutely needed, but should have unless you're wanting to break piston rings in the #8cyl (always my personal problem). * a good tranny and c-clip eliminator axles - again, not necessary, but if you want everything to stay together you should consider these parts. Also, a good diff, auburn pro, etc. * safety equipment - you're going to get kicked off the track w/o addressing safety with that much power * torque box re-inforcements. You'll be pulling the stock torque boxes apart with ease. You may also consider 1 3/4" long tubes at that kind of power level. The price increase is negligible, but the power increase wont be. The cobra intake could also be a bottleneck - I'd think about using an eldelbrock or trick flow intake (unported) instead. Another question... if a set of heads has a reccomended valve size, can you still use different sized valves, and can they be smaller then the reccomended size? For example, in the Ford Racing catalog the Z heads have a reccomended valve size of 2.02, 1.64... could I used 1.94, 1.60 instead without problems?You dont want to do that. If you COULD, the smaller valve seat is going to screw up airflow, since it'll be protruding into the valve bowl (throat) area. If I were you, I would use the twisted wedge head (2.02/1.60)... its cheap and hard to beat for the money flow wise (and therefore power production wise). I'm sure I'm forgetting something... RL will surely ammend smile.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjeosu27 Posted December 10, 2003 Report Share Posted December 10, 2003 Couldnt have said it better myself. You're gonna want a Tremec 3550 TKO and definitly the c-clip elim setup. Last thing you want to do is launch an axle out the side of the car and fold the wheel up into the fender. Also, 9psi may be a little much... you won't see enough of a power gain (as apposed to 6psi) to warrant the large extra amount of added stress to the motor. Rob? EDIT: oh and 11's are easily possible like Jason said. If you go with trick flow heads/intake you'll knock down high 11's on motor, low/mid 11's with the blower and a GOOD (have Rob and Don Lasota do it) tune. The block will be fine. Just ask Brian Turner or Brian Rigsby. Hell I think Rigs still has the stock hypereucraptic pistons and the car as gone 10's making nearly 500hp. Turner's car traps 130+ and I am almost positive it's a stock block. It's all about the tune. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicktcfcsb Posted December 10, 2003 Report Share Posted December 10, 2003 Yeah it sucks your 93 doenst have the 87-92 Forged internals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stolen 5.0 Posted December 10, 2003 Report Share Posted December 10, 2003 and it is also down on power and torque from the factory, the stock pistons might be the weak point Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rl Posted December 10, 2003 Report Share Posted December 10, 2003 Its cake. I'll post more later on when I have time. We have gone 11.1@123mph with a stock 95 shortblock in our 3700lbs daily driven 95 vert'. Shortblock has never been out of the car. smile.gif EDIT: OK, Why are you stuck on using those heads? You can make more power with a better head. Same with an intake, unless your getting a killer deal I'd go with an edlebrock or TFS intake. Your going to need more than a 30# injector. Get a pro-M 80mm MAF (make sure it has a flow sheet with it) a walbro 255lph in-tank pump and some 42# injectors. A F-Cam would be more suited to a blown motor as well, if you are going to use an off-the-shelf cam. That blower will work and you will make enough power to run 11's. The key to keeping a stock shortblock together is a lack of RPM's and keeping the motor from detonating. A good tune does wonders here. The hypereutectic pistons are a limiting factor, but no more than the block, rods, or crank. With a safe tune they can make a bunch of power. I think with your goals you won't have to worry to much about that. You won't be able to make the kind of power that the Brian's do because you are side loading the crank with the blower, this tends to destroy stock cranks with higher power cars. As stated you will need the rest of the supporting hardware. 1 5/8" longtubes and a 2.5" exhaust will work just fine. A stock t5 will last a few passes, I'd look into going auto (if its a drag car) or getting a TKO II+. Same with the axles and rear end. If its a drag car and driveability isn't an issue, go with a locker and some good 31 spline axles, otherwise a ford 31 spline differential and good axles would work fine. We are not very hard on driveline parts because we don't launch that hard. I was cutting 1.5x 60's on drag radials leaving off idle (try that with a centrifugal... ) If you want some help along the way don't hesitate to get in touch with me. smile.gif Rob [ 10. December 2003, 02:34 PM: Message edited by: rl ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rl Posted December 10, 2003 Report Share Posted December 10, 2003 Originally posted by Stolen 5.0: and it is also down on power and torque from the factory, the stock pistons might be the weak point They arent down on power, Ford changed the way that they rated the cars horsepower in 1993, so the advertised numbers are just lower. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DKilbourne Posted December 10, 2003 Report Share Posted December 10, 2003 Originally posted by rl: A F-Cam would be more suited to a blown motor as well, if you are going to use an off-the-shelf cam. Rob [/QB]Trick flow says that 224 degrees of duration at .050 lift is the most that you can use with stock pistons and the twisted wedge heads, so the f-cam would have too much duration. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rl Posted December 10, 2003 Report Share Posted December 10, 2003 Originally posted by 93TANG: Trick flow says that 224 degrees of duration at .050 lift is the most that you can use with stock pistons and the twisted wedge heads, so the f-cam would have too much duration. I was reffering to the Z heads he was wanting. He would have to run 1.6RR's though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest chochmo Posted December 10, 2003 Report Share Posted December 10, 2003 yup, as they said. Ditch the E-cam, and you need the 2.02 valves. I personally wouldnt spend the money on the Z heads, I have the TFS High Ports and they are nice. Bigger Mass Air needed also, and you will need to beef up the rest of the drivetrain as well like everybody said, at least if you wanna thrash it. I know people with stock T-5s running high 10s all day with no trouble. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
20G TSi Posted December 10, 2003 Report Share Posted December 10, 2003 Originally posted by chochmo: yup, as they said. Ditch the E-cam, and you need the 2.02 valves. I personally wouldnt spend the money on the Z heads, I have the TFS High Ports and they are nice. Bigger Mass Air needed also, and you will need to beef up the rest of the drivetrain as well like everybody said, at least if you wanna thrash it. I know people with stock T-5s running high 10s all day with no trouble. IMO, you dont need to ditch the e303 cam and you dont need 2.02 valves either (unless you're going to use a head thats cast for use with 2.02 valves, ofcourse). And 42lb injectors aren't needed either, but would be a good ideal. my old 302 setup (havent run a 302 since 1998) did just fine with an "e" cam, 1.90 valves and 30lb injectors. Sure there are better cams, 2.02int valves would be better and 42lb injectors would be safer but they arent absolutely necessary. Neither are the tranny or axles, but if you want anything to last you should have the good driveline parts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nate1647545505 Posted December 10, 2003 Report Share Posted December 10, 2003 ITR anyone graemlins/burnout02.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stolen 5.0 Posted December 10, 2003 Report Share Posted December 10, 2003 Originally posted by rl: They arent down on power, Ford changed the way that they rated the cars horsepower in 1993, so the advertised numbers are just lower. why the hell would they under rate the hp on them? that would be dumb to say, hey we lowerd the hp by and torque by 25 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
20G TSi Posted December 10, 2003 Report Share Posted December 10, 2003 they changed cam shaft profiles in 1993 due to valve train noise and detuned the ecu a bit (did I hear something about retarding timing between shifts to save trannies? or was this for the sn95's?). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
90gt Posted December 10, 2003 Report Share Posted December 10, 2003 I think one of the reasons they lowered the horsepower level on the GT's was to make the cobra look good. As far as the timing retard I believe it was on the 93 cobras and the sn95s. Now onto the topic. The cobra intake you bought off my brother will work fine to get you into the 11's, he went 11.31@127+ with it and a set of TFS twisted wedge heads and 15lbs of boost on stock internals and stock axles granted he got lucky on the axles I would up grade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
20G TSi Posted December 11, 2003 Report Share Posted December 11, 2003 Originally posted by QWK90GT: The cobra intake you bought off my brother will work fine to get you into the 11's, he went 11.31@127+ with it and a set of TFS twisted wedge heads and 15lbs of boost dayum, yeah, 15psi = bottleneck what? you could ram that through a straw and still make decent hp the cobra intake should be fine, i'm jfwy. smile.gifgraemlins/gives.gif [ 11. December 2003, 08:55 AM: Message edited by: Jasons GSX ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rl Posted December 11, 2003 Report Share Posted December 11, 2003 Originally posted by Jasons GSX: they changed cam shaft profiles in 1993 due to valve train noise and detuned the ecu a bit (did I hear something about retarding timing between shifts to save trannies? or was this for the sn95's?). They changed the ramp speeds, this didn't hurt horse power. The computers are the same (program wise). I can show you the programs for all of the early 90's MAF computers, they are all essentially the same. The shift retard thing is a complete myth, it does not exist on any 5.0 mustang of any year. Thats a myth that really gets to me (kinda like the people who swear the Fox computers make more power then the sn95 computers). smile.gif Fowler, I don't know why they did it but they did. I'm fairly sure they went from rating the motors without accessories to rating them with accessories. It was simply a rating change, not a hardware change. It's been beat up over and over on Corral (from years ago). Go over there and do some searches. I also agree that you don't need 2.02 intake valve heads. I'd actually shy away from them and go with a slightly more aggressive cam. As for the 42# injectors, if you are going to spend the money to get injectors, you might as well go bigger. The fuel system is the heart of the car, its one spot where saving a few dollars is not worth it. Overkill is good. You could run 11's on 30's (30's would be pushing it on a blown car) or 36's, but why not spend a few more dollars and be safe? Rob smile.gif www.lasotaracing.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
20G TSi Posted December 11, 2003 Report Share Posted December 11, 2003 Originally posted by rl: They changed the ramp speeds, this didn't hurt horse power. The computers are the same (program wise). I can show you the programs for all of the early 90's MAF computers, they are all essentially the same. The shift retard thing is a complete myth, it does not exist on any 5.0 mustang of any year. Thats a myth that really gets to me (kinda like the people who swear the Fox computers make more power then the sn95 computers). smile.gif Rob www.lasotaracing.com thanks for clearing that up for me. I've been outta the whole EFI loop since about 1998, and wasnt big into it then. I'd like to go back to efi using one of those nifty vicJR intakes with the injector bosses someday. It was outrageous to go EFI back when I built my 408w (as a matter of fact, Bischoff called it fuel infection on large CI motors). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rl Posted December 11, 2003 Report Share Posted December 11, 2003 You've seen craigs Turbo car havent you? BABS he calls it. He has a vic. JR with a spyder upper, very cool setup. smile.gif Someday when I get out of moneysucking college I'll do a nice 408 setup with a big single turbo. Until then my 351 with a small single turbo will do With the tuning thats available now a stock EEC can do more than a stand alone in the right hands Originally posted by Jasons GSX: thanks for clearing that up for me. I've been outta the whole EFI loop since about 1998, and wasnt big into it then. I'd like to go back to efi using one of those nifty vicJR intakes with the injector bosses someday. It was outrageous to go EFI back when I built my 408w (as a matter of fact, Bischoff called it fuel infection on large CI motors). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KlubFoot Posted December 11, 2003 Author Report Share Posted December 11, 2003 I guess I should have also said that these are goals for an everyday driven street car. My ultimate goal is to get into the 11's however that may be. I don't have a set way to get there yet, I'm kinda just throwing around ideas in my head. Honestly, I would love to hit 11's all motor but I don't want to get into raising compression due to the fact that in the end I might want to go boosted afterall. Thank you to everyone who has thrown in some input! Especially RL who has given me great info time after time. I need to come out some time and meet you guys and talk about this stuff in person... it would be a hell of a lot easier! lol Thanks again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rl Posted December 11, 2003 Report Share Posted December 11, 2003 Originally posted by American Badass: I guess I should have also said that these are goals for an everyday driven street car. My ultimate goal is to get into the 11's however that may be. I don't have a set way to get there yet, I'm kinda just throwing around ideas in my head. Honestly, I would love to hit 11's all motor but I don't want to get into raising compression due to the fact that in the end I might want to go boosted afterall. Thank you to everyone who has thrown in some input! Especially RL who has given me great info time after time. I need to come out some time and meet you guys and talk about this stuff in person... it would be a hell of a lot easier! lol Thanks again. Like I said, feel free to call me anytime. My number is on our web-page. You might want to look at some of the NMRA Pure street cars. They are un-ported after market head/intake cars with mild cams running ridiculously fast. They are running built short blocks and are tweaked to hell and back, but you could copy a heads/intake/cam set up and have a 11 second NA combo with a stock bottom end. One of my friends in cincy had a 92gt with a stock shortblock, TFS heads, a Ed Curtis (only way to go!) custom pure street cam (I think they have to have stock lift with any duration) and a TFS intake. He went 12.1's@110 for season after season. He drove his car every day and to every race. It was still a 9.5:1 compression car. Blower friendly. smile.gif Now a lot of the guys from AFR 165's and Holley intakes. Just get the combo right and you will be good to go, your in the right direction by thinking everything through first. A lot of guys just throw parts on their cars and then wonder why they can only make 270rwhp with H/C/I when other guys who have a good combo are making 300+rwhp. With the right tuning you can do just about anything to the engine and keep the car 100% streetable. Ours drives like stock and is just about as quiet as stock. Thats with a split duration .577 lift custom cam too Rob www.lasotaracing.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
04r1 Posted December 11, 2003 Report Share Posted December 11, 2003 You cant go 11's on a stock 302, not possible Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest chochmo Posted December 11, 2003 Report Share Posted December 11, 2003 In the right hands, a DFI is much more "tunable" than EFI...as long as money isn't a factor. I wouldn't put DFI on a everyday street car though, there is no point. If you go with an aggressive cam just watch out that you don't lose your power brakes all the way because that really sucks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rl Posted December 11, 2003 Report Share Posted December 11, 2003 Originally posted by chochmo: In the right hands, a DFI is much more "tunable" than EFI...as long as money isn't a factor. I wouldn't put DFI on a everyday street car though, there is no point. If you go with an aggressive cam just watch out that you don't lose your power brakes all the way because that really sucks. I dont really want to turn this thread into a debate, but I'd like to hear why you think that DFI is more tunable than EFI. A late model ford EEC is far more powerful than a stand alone on a street car. It's only limitation is RPM (~8,000rpm). The only real 'benefit' I could see to DFI is its ability to control external drivers (such as for Nitrous control or a wideband) and its data logging capabilities (which can be done with a EEC). For a race car a DFI would make sense, however for a street car the EEC allows you to tune much better and for many more situations. EDIT: OK I didnt read what you wrote completly. Ignore the above then. smile.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest COOKIE MONSTER Posted December 12, 2003 Report Share Posted December 12, 2003 Drive it right, with heads and intake, put your money in suspension and tires and you'll go elevens all day long. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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