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CRX with B18c5 help


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Originally posted by rl:

couldnt you do that with a VAFC?

 

and what do you mean 'so lift is no longer a variable'?

more lift at low rpm =/= more power[/QB]

I should have also added that the cam has a revised profile. You could lower the Vtec engagement RPM with a V-AFC, but the car will run horrible. In reguards to more lift at lower RPMS....Idle quality would suffer tremendously,emissions would be horrible and engine turque/response would decrease dramatically. The low cam profile is designed for good gas mileage, good idle, good throtle response and more torque (relative too a Honda!). With many Vtec cams, the vtec engagment point must be raised to prevent power from falling off before and during the changeover. to the higher cam profile.
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Originally posted by NIXONcrx:

this was about what swap i should do for crx. Now its over who knows more about the engines. lol will the arguing stop?

We aren't arguing, this is just a technical discussion. ;)
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Originally posted by TrboRex:

I would just like to say Rob you are correct about the VTEC KILLER CAMS. They are called exactly that and are made by Toda Racing, a highly honorable player in the import racing world. Link here http://www.toda-racing.co.jp/product/onemake_e/b16/b16-05.html

We were noth talking about pretty much the same thing, although I wasn't aware Toda made such a thing. Crane Cams also makes something similar (although I think the actual technique of doing so may be different, same effect).
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Originally posted by TrboRex:

Oh and one more thing, check out this link http://www.todaracing.com/B162.html . Notice the picture of the civic hatch turbo at the top of the page. It is on the page with the VTEC KILLER CAMS on it. I wonder why he changed out his stock VTEC cams?

Why do YOU think he is using those cams? Also what "besides the drawing" makes you think it is turbo? I know why he is using those cams, but do you? I have presented extremely thourough answers here, now it's your turn :D
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Originally posted by rl:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by slow4now:

The ZDYNE one wire conversion comes with fuel and ignition maps already optimized so there is no tuning required. What Greddy fuel control box are you speaking of? Thanks.

The controller greddy gives you, which basically uses the MAP sensor to up the voltage to the injectors, and slighty retards the timing, it comes with the kit for 95+ civics.

 

And I'm sorry but there is no cookie cutter optimization, it can come close, but the best way is to get it on a dyno with a wideband and play with it.</font>

Sorry, I missed this reply before. I didn't realize you were talking about turboing a B16A. If you do just a B16A swap CORRECTLY there is no tuning needed. If you turbo a B16A properly, there is not much tuning needed, but extra tuning never hurts and would definitely help in most cases. The blue box Greddy gives you in the 92-95 kit doesn't allow for any adjustment, so I don't know what tuning you are going to do with it. Also, it does not retard the timing. You have to do that yourself by mechanically retarding the distributor. The blue box stops the MAP sensor from seeing boost, and therefore prevents the CEL from coming on. It also acts as a boost dependent fuel regulator to richen the air/fuel mixture under boost.
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Originally posted by slow4now:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by rl:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by slow4now:

The ZDYNE one wire conversion comes with fuel and ignition maps already optimized so there is no tuning required. What Greddy fuel control box are you speaking of? Thanks.

The controller greddy gives you, which basically uses the MAP sensor to up the voltage to the injectors, and slighty retards the timing, it comes with the kit for 95+ civics.

 

And I'm sorry but there is no cookie cutter optimization, it can come close, but the best way is to get it on a dyno with a wideband and play with it.</font>

Sorry, I missed this reply before. I didn't realize you were talking about turboing a B16A. If you do just a B16A swap CORRECTLY there is no tuning needed. If you turbo a B16A properly, there is not much tuning needed, but extra tuning never hurts and would definitely help in most cases. The blue box Greddy gives you in the 92-95 kit doesn't allow for any adjustment, so I don't know what tuning you are going to do with it. Also, it does not retard the timing. You have to do that yourself by mechanically retarding the distributor. The blue box stops the MAP sensor from seeing boost, and therefore prevents the CEL from coming on. It also acts as a boost dependent fuel regulator to richen the air/fuel mixture under boost.</font>yes, it acts as a electric FMU, similar to what vortech uses on the returnless style fuel systems for 99+ mustangs.

 

tuning? timing and a AFPR, for starters, possibly lose the blue box in favor of a SAFC.

 

ohh, and he is using those cams because ported vtec heads flow very, very well (for a honduh engine hehe) and the lighter cams, and valvetrain allow him to rev his -probably built- shortblock to the freaking moon.

 

[ 13 May 2002, 07:43 PM: Message edited by: rl ]

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Originally posted by slow4now:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by TrboRex:

Oh and one more thing, check out this link http://www.todaracing.com/B162.html . Notice the picture of the civic hatch turbo at the top of the page. It is on the page with the VTEC KILLER CAMS on it. I wonder why he changed out his stock VTEC cams?

Why do YOU think he is using those cams? Also what "besides the drawing" makes you think it is turbo? I know why he is using those cams, but do you? I have presented extremely thourough answers here, now it's your turn :D </font>I was just fucking trying to lighten up the conversation between you and Rob. I do not own a VTEC motor and do not care to so I do not read up much on VTEC motors. I know the whole idea behind VTEC and how if tuned right, it can make more power than a non vtec turbo or non turbo motor but if we get back to the whole point of this post, it is about hp for dollar. I can take my non vtec motor and get headwork done to it to flow way better than a VTEC head. The cost is still less than if I would have bought a VTEC motor. I am not doubting your knowledge on cars or motors at all. It can just get very expensive and this guy from what I understand does not want to spend a ton of money off the bat. Anyway, this whole post is getting old so Im done.
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Yes, I am done with this as well.It is obvious that my words are falling on deaf ears for whatever reason. My intention was never to ruffle feathers or try to pump myself up, I just wanted the original poster to have as much correct information as possible. I have seen tons of misinformation on numerous boards and it gets old quick. I have been wrong many times myself, and even though I absolutely hate getting proved wrong, it is part of the learning experience. Heck, just a month ago I had a misconception about something engine/turbo related and FINALLY had a conversation with a friend that lit the lightbulb in my head, telling me what I had previously thought was wrong. It wasn't anything he said specifically, he just kept asking me why why why and finally I told him something that was wrong, and he told me why so. Anyhow, good luck everyone with your cars and endeavors. I'm sure we will meet sometime and hopefully will have civil less-cerebral conversations. If anyone has any questions feel free to PM me and I will answer them the best I can, or will point you in the right direction. Later!
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Originally posted by kenny:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by NIXONcrx:

what will i be left with power wise once ive done the zc swap with turbo?

Less than the El Camino.

 

TurboRex dynoed 180fwhp.</font>

I think it was like 186 (like 176 torque), this was with a DANGEROUSLY lean (15:1...no kidding) air fuel ratio... I would wager to say he is pretty close to the 200fwhp mark now with a hair more boost and his fuel problem figured out.

 

thats a dead stock motor with a turbo (pulleys and exhaust of course)

 

[ 13 May 2002, 10:50 PM: Message edited by: rl ]

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I dynoed at 186.4 fwhp and 173.1 fwtrq on around 7 pounds of boost and no fuel. According to the wide band O2, I was running a 15.5 air fuel ratio which is dangerously lean. I was able to turn fuel up a little but not much. I have since then added a s-afc to get more fuel to my motor and am awaiting the next dyno day from Brian. I am also running 11 pounds of boost on it now too since I now have fuel. This current setup should put me around 210 at the wheels. Keep in mind this is on stock honda internals.
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Just to give you something to compare that too, I have a dyno graph in front of me of a B16 Hatch with intake, exhaust, header,no cat and it only put down 151 hp and 107 torque. Keep in mind I have way less money in my engine too than the B16 setup. Just something to ponder.
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Originally posted by kenny:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by TrboRex:

A grand in headwork just to get it to flow like a VTEC head? I dont know who is doing your machine work but that is a ripoff. Like you said though, to each his own.

Ditto.

 

Ever hear of doing your own work? :eek: </font>

Not on a honda! ;)
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Originally posted by slow4now:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by rl:

couldnt you do that with a VAFC?

 

and what do you mean 'so lift is no longer a variable'?

more lift at low rpm =/= more power

I should have also added that the cam has a revised profile. You could lower the Vtec engagement RPM with a V-AFC, but the car will run horrible. In reguards to more lift at lower RPMS....Idle quality would suffer tremendously,emissions would be horrible and engine turque/response would decrease dramatically. The low cam profile is designed for good gas mileage, good idle, good throtle response and more torque (relative too a Honda!). With many Vtec cams, the vtec engagment point must be raised to prevent power from falling off before and during the changeover. to the higher cam profile.[/QB]</font>I think he meant use the v-afc to jack the vtec point higher in the rpm band on a turbo application. (maybe not :confused: ) Yes this can be done since the majority of the valve overlap is in "vtec range", but then remember you are essentially using only the smaller lobes on the cam, in a sense wasting the larger profiled lobes. The best solution in my opinion is a combonation of the v-afc and cam gears.
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If You're really really thinking the money situation, and not going to run super high amounts of boost. My friend w/ a civic ex AUTOMATIC (vtec sohc) has the greddy kit on it, and was running EXTREMELY lean, we're talking off the charts lean! like 18: .7 and still put down 150+ torque on an automatic mind you at 7pounds-ish. With enough fuel, he could be right up with trborex's numbers. We couldn't dyno the hp, becuase he woulda blown his motor on the high end.

This motor only costs around 6 hundred dollars too!! So, thats another thing you could do, its all about preference.

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If your talking Horsepower per dollar, (turborex) have you thought about a B20 + turbo? I know the motors can be had for at or around $1,000, and they have LOADS of torque. Much more than any other b-series motor.

 

Or even B20 with a vtec head. I've seen them dyno 200+hp (fully build though) but I bet you could get away with stock pistons, even stock type r pistons, for under $3,000, and still dyno at 190+hp. :D

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