04r1 Posted May 12, 2002 Report Share Posted May 12, 2002 Here is my motto. FUCK VTEC. I think they invented it for ricers to brag about or something. If you are staying naturally aspirated, its alright but definetely not for turbo man. Do what you want though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Posted May 12, 2002 Report Share Posted May 12, 2002 Originally posted by TrboRex: Here is my motto. FUCK VTEC. I think they invented it for ricers to brag about or something. If you are staying naturally aspirated, its alright but definetely not for turbo man. Do what you want though.I totally agree. There is nothing I hate more than people bragging about VTEC. I have it in my Si, woohoo, it uh, makes my car louder.... Seriously, especially with forced induction, it makes sense to go with more cubes. Sure the B16 has proven itself to the performance aftermarket, as well as the racing world, but its an expensive engine once you start getting serious with the mods. I would recommend a turbo H22. Plenty of torque and LOTS AND LOTS of top end (in the honda world, anyways ) Go ZC and be happy. Buy Kennys car and be even happier Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rl Posted May 12, 2002 Report Share Posted May 12, 2002 Originally posted by More Tools Than Columbus Racing: [QBSeriously, especially with forced induction, it makes sense to go with more cubes. Sure the B16 has proven itself to the performance aftermarket, as well as the racing world, but its an expensive engine once you start getting serious with the mods. I would recommend a turbo H22. Plenty of torque and LOTS AND LOTS of top end (in the honda world, anyways ) Go ZC and be happy. Buy Kennys car and be even happier [/QB]lol! get out the torches and big hammers for the h22! vtec cams have to much valve overlap to work as well as they could with turbos...they are made to run NA..hence why vtec sucks with turbos. hehe, buy kenny's car. [ 12 May 2002, 06:08 PM: Message edited by: rl ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slow4now Posted May 12, 2002 Report Share Posted May 12, 2002 Originally posted by TrboRex: Here is my motto. FUCK VTEC. I think they invented it for ricers to brag about or something. If you are staying naturally aspirated, its alright but definetely not for turbo man. Do what you want though.Vtec heads flow MUCH better than non-vtec heads,this is a benefit with or without turbo. With turbo a little overlap can be good just not too much,and overlap can always be dialed out. IF ( just for arguments sake) you had a turbo B18B (non vtec Integra LS) and then put a Vtec head on it from say a B16A2, you would make more power. Period. To get a non-vtec head to flow close/same as a Vtec head it requires over a grand in head work. But to each his own I guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
04r1 Posted May 12, 2002 Report Share Posted May 12, 2002 A grand in headwork just to get it to flow like a VTEC head? I dont know who is doing your machine work but that is a ripoff. Like you said though, to each his own. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenny Posted May 12, 2002 Report Share Posted May 12, 2002 Originally posted by TrboRex: A grand in headwork just to get it to flow like a VTEC head? I dont know who is doing your machine work but that is a ripoff. Like you said though, to each his own.Ditto. Ever hear of doing your own work? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest badmuthrfkr Posted May 12, 2002 Report Share Posted May 12, 2002 B18C5 and JRSC doesn't work well together at all. Bolting on a turbo, slicks and a ZC into your CRX doesn't automatically equal 11s. Haven't you ever seen Supras with 800rwhp running 12.5s? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slow4now Posted May 12, 2002 Report Share Posted May 12, 2002 Originally posted by TrboRex: A grand in headwork just to get it to flow like a VTEC head? I dont know who is doing your machine work but that is a ripoff. Like you said though, to each his own.Just because someone can use a die grinder doesnt mean they are qualified to do headwork. There is more to headwork than just openeing everything up and getting huge CFM's out of it. Port shape and air velocities are very important, and cannot be learned without a lot of first hand experience. Go to www.portflow.com and e-mail them and to what they say about vtec versus non-vtec heads. They are highly reguarded when it comes to Hondas. Later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
04r1 Posted May 12, 2002 Report Share Posted May 12, 2002 Originally posted by Hua: B18C5 and JRSC doesn't work well together at all. Bolting on a turbo, slicks and a ZC into your CRX doesn't automatically equal 11s. Haven't you ever seen Supras with 800rwhp running 12.5s? A ZC with a turbo and slicks would never hit 11's. I am talking about a fully built ZC turbo with slicks and I have seen that setup go 11's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slow4now Posted May 12, 2002 Report Share Posted May 12, 2002 On a side note, a turbo ZC is good for tuebo just for the fact that it has two cams, making tuning a lot easier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest nixon Posted May 12, 2002 Report Share Posted May 12, 2002 how much would a fully built zc turbo engine cost? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
04r1 Posted May 12, 2002 Report Share Posted May 12, 2002 I would say you could probably do it for $5500. That is with the motor, all new bottom end shit, turbo cams, and a turbo kit. If you are interested in doing this setup, let me know. I have tons of info on it as I will be doing close to the same build. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest nixon Posted May 12, 2002 Report Share Posted May 12, 2002 I'm interested. "letting you know" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rl Posted May 12, 2002 Report Share Posted May 12, 2002 Originally posted by slow4now: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by TrboRex: Here is my motto. FUCK VTEC. I think they invented it for ricers to brag about or something. If you are staying naturally aspirated, its alright but definetely not for turbo man. Do what you want though.Vtec heads flow MUCH better than non-vtec heads,this is a benefit with or without turbo. With turbo a little overlap can be good just not too much,and overlap can always be dialed out. IF ( just for arguments sake) you had a turbo B18B (non vtec Integra LS) and then put a Vtec head on it from say a B16A2, you would make more power. Period. To get a non-vtec head to flow close/same as a Vtec head it requires over a grand in head work. But to each his own I guess.</font>How can you 'dial out' valve overlap? you need new cams (hence vtec killer cams, which make vtec turbo cars run like raped apes BTW) and you really don't want any. what are the flow numbers (cfm) on a vtec head vs a non-vtec? and the b18b with the vtec head is using vtec killer cams I would assume? also, wouldnt it have a pretty healthy compresion ratio? [ 12 May 2002, 09:22 PM: Message edited by: rl ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slow4now Posted May 12, 2002 Report Share Posted May 12, 2002 Sorry, accidentally double posted! [ 12 May 2002, 10:55 PM: Message edited by: slow4now ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slow4now Posted May 12, 2002 Report Share Posted May 12, 2002 Originally posted by rl: How can you 'dial out' valve overlap? you need new cams (hence vtec killer cams, which make vtec turbo cars run like raped apes BTW) and you really don't want any. what are the flow numbers (cfm) on a vtec head vs a non-vtec? and the b18b with the vtec head is using vtec killer cams I would assume? also, wouldnt it have a pretty healthy compresion ratio?You can dial out overlap with cam gears. I don't know anything about "vtec killer cams". There are cams that are turbo specific that generally have slightly higher lift with roughly stock duration on the intake cam and shorter duration on the exhaust. The only way to kill vtec that I know of is to either disable it (disconnect the vtec solenoid) or get a roller cam system. Even if you kept the compression ratio the same on the B18B LS somehow (thicker headgasket, lower CR pistons, or milled the non-vtec head to raise compression on the stock LS motor), the LS-Vtec will still produce more power.Even when using stock Vtec cams,and that goes for NA or Turbo applications. As far as I know (but don't quote me on this!) a B16A head on a LS block only raises the compression by two tenths(.2) of a point. As far as head flow numbers go, I honestly don't know what they are off hand, but you could e-mail portflow and I'm sure they would be glad to give you the numbers accompanied by some charts. Later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest nixon Posted May 12, 2002 Report Share Posted May 12, 2002 is there a difference with the zc-1st and zc-2nd? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
04r1 Posted May 12, 2002 Report Share Posted May 12, 2002 I am assuming you are talking about the first gen brown top motor vs. the black top second gen motor. Buy the black top one. It is a newer motor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rl Posted May 13, 2002 Report Share Posted May 13, 2002 Originally posted by slow4now: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by rl: How can you 'dial out' valve overlap? you need new cams (hence vtec killer cams, which make vtec turbo cars run like raped apes BTW) and you really don't want any. what are the flow numbers (cfm) on a vtec head vs a non-vtec? and the b18b with the vtec head is using vtec killer cams I would assume? also, wouldnt it have a pretty healthy compresion ratio?You can dial out overlap with cam gears. I don't know anything about "vtec killer cams". There are cams that are turbo specific that generally have slightly higher lift with roughly stock duration on the intake cam and shorter duration on the exhaust. The only way to kill vtec that I know of is to either disable it (disconnect the vtec solenoid) or get a roller cam system. Even if you kept the compression ratio the same on the B18B LS somehow (thicker headgasket, lower CR pistons, or milled the non-vtec head to raise compression on the stock LS motor), the LS-Vtec will still produce more power.Even when using stock Vtec cams,and that goes for NA or Turbo applications. As far as I know (but don't quote me on this!) a B16A head on a LS block only raises the compression by two tenths(.2) of a point. As far as head flow numbers go, I honestly don't know what they are off hand, but you could e-mail portflow and I'm sure they would be glad to give you the numbers accompanied by some charts. Later.</font>How would you dial it out with cam gears? advance one and retard the other? that seems as though it would fuck up the intake side... The reason I asked about compression was you wouldn't want much more than stock (what do those have, like 9.5:1?) for a turbo app.. Do they even make thicker head gaskets? if so that would only lower it like .05 of a point. I do agree that it would make more power, but its also a lot more money. Especialy if you are going to do pistons, because you might as well do rods, and sleeve the block vtec killer cams are simply high lift nonvtec cams (you disconnect the solenoid) I believe its the same as the roller cam kit. I'm relatively new to the OHC Honda engine stuff, my roots lay in ford v8's until I realized the money to be made in Honda's, not to mention they are very easy to work on, so all of my experience is from DOING Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slow4now Posted May 13, 2002 Report Share Posted May 13, 2002 Originally posted by rl: How would you dial it out with cam gears? advance one and retard the other? that seems as though it would fuck up the intake side... The reason I asked about compression was you wouldn't want much more than stock (what do those have, like 9.5:1?) for a turbo app.. Do they even make thicker head gaskets? if so that would only lower it like .05 of a point. I do agree that it would make more power, but its also a lot more money. Especialy if you are going to do pistons, because you might as well do rods, and sleeve the block vtec killer cams are simply high lift nonvtec cams (you disconnect the solenoid) I believe its the same as the roller cam kit. I'm relatively new to the OHC Honda engine stuff, my roots lay in ford v8's until I realized the money to be made in Honda's, not to mention they are very easy to work on, so all of my experience is from DOING You are correct about dialing out overlap about cams (whether you intended to be right or not). Overlap is when both the exhaust and intake valves are open, when the pistons are near TDC (top dead center) on the exhaust stroke.So, moving the intake and exhaust events away from each other will decrease the amount of overlap. However it is important to expel all of the charge air that was burned so the engine can get an uncontaminated charge of air.(Ashes do not burn,and that is basically what is left after the combustion cycle). If the intake valves are open at the same time as the exhaust valves, the incoming intake air can help push out the exhaust gases, and not the engine will have fresh air to mix with the fuel and hopefully a more powerful explosion will occur.This is why some overlap with a turbo motor is good. Of course all of this must also be timed with the postion of the poston and crank, but hopefully explained myself well enough without going that far with it . The compression of a motor made of a B18B block,B18B pistons, a stock 3 layer Honda headgasket a B16A head and stock B18A piston to deck height would be roughly 9.55:1 cr. A stock LS B18B motor has a CR of 9.20:1. Yes their are thicker headgaskets available, (Greddy and Cometic both make them) and they are made in variable thickness. A head gasket 2mm thick (0.07874 inches) will lower compression on a stock B18B to 8.62:1 (.58 points). I think when you say Vtec Killer cam you may be talking about the roller kit. It basically keep the engine on the High Vtec cam thourghout the entire RPM range, therefore the lift is no longer variable. I'm trying not to take your last comment offensively (as I'm not sure you meant it to be a negative comment directed to me.). However, (don't be offended as this goes for everyone and I don't mean to direct it to you) but if you DO something WRONG your experience doesn't mean anything. I would rather have someone build me a motor that has only done a dozen or so CORRECTLY than someone that has been building motors for 20+ years and has done them INCORRECTLY. Later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slow4now Posted May 13, 2002 Report Share Posted May 13, 2002 Also on the note of high compression ratios and forced induction, the are perfectly compatible BUT you have a much smaller tuning window with higher compression ratios, so it is much less forgiving of tuning errors. What do you think the racers (all forms of it) have been running while they are saying they only run 8.5:1.......Later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rl Posted May 13, 2002 Report Share Posted May 13, 2002 Originally posted by slow4now: You are correct about dialing out overlap about cams (whether you intended to be right or not). Overlap is when both the exhaust and intake valves are open, when the pistons are near TDC (top dead center) on the exhaust stroke.So, moving the intake and exhaust events away from each other will decrease the amount of overlap. However it is important to expel all of the charge air that was burned so the engine can get an uncontaminated charge of air.(Ashes do not burn,and that is basically what is left after the combustion cycle). If the intake valves are open at the same time as the exhaust valves, the incoming intake air can help push out the exhaust gases, and not the engine will have fresh air to mix with the fuel and hopefully a more powerful explosion will occur.This is why some overlap with a turbo motor is good. Of course all of this must also be timed with the postion of the poston and crank, but hopefully explained myself well enough without going that far with it . The compression of a motor made of a B18B block,B18B pistons, a stock 3 layer Honda headgasket a B16A head and stock B18A piston to deck height would be roughly 9.55:1 cr. A stock LS B18B motor has a CR of 9.20:1. Yes their are thicker headgaskets available, (Greddy and Cometic both make them) and they are made in variable thickness. A head gasket 2mm thick (0.07874 inches) will lower compression on a stock B18B to 8.62:1 (.58 points). I think when you say Vtec Killer cam you may be talking about the roller kit. It basically keep the engine on the High Vtec cam thourghout the entire RPM range, therefore the lift is no longer variable. I'm trying not to take your last comment offensively (as I'm not sure you meant it to be a negative comment directed to me.). However, (don't be offended as this goes for everyone and I don't mean to direct it to you) but if you DO something WRONG your experience doesn't mean anything. I would rather have someone build me a motor that has only done a dozen or so CORRECTLY than someone that has been building motors for 20+ years and has done them INCORRECTLY. Later.Firs off, I understand how a cam works, and how an internal combustion engine works, I have a LOT of expeirnce racing/building and tuning all kinds of ford 302 combos, the principles are the same. (I built the short block in my car, did all the port work on the heads, I've done super charger installs, turbos, and probably 20+ head swaps, cam swaps etc) My point was the car probably isn't going to run as well as it can with one cam retarded say 1* and the other advanced 1*, The best thing to do would be to get custom ground/turbo grind cams. I have yet to assemble a OHC Honda short block, and I'm not sure I would want to as the main clearances have to be MUCH tighter than with the engines I am used to dealing with (90% of the oil pressure in a 302 is built on the cam bearings vs. The majority of the pressure in a OHC engine being built on the mains) generally, I just do head swaps/engine swaps and installs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slow4now Posted May 13, 2002 Report Share Posted May 13, 2002 Originally posted by slow4now: I think when you say Vtec Killer cam you may be talking about the roller kit. It basically keep the engine on the High Vtec cam thourghout the entire RPM range, therefore the lift is no longer variable. [/QB]Correction:What I meant to say was the it keeps the cam on the higher Vtec cam PROFILE, not cam as originally stated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
04r1 Posted May 13, 2002 Report Share Posted May 13, 2002 Can't we all just get along. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rl Posted May 13, 2002 Report Share Posted May 13, 2002 Originally posted by slow4now: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by slow4now: I think when you say Vtec Killer cam you may be talking about the roller kit. It basically keep the engine on the High Vtec cam thourghout the entire RPM range, therefore the lift is no longer variable. Correction:What I meant to say was the it keeps the cam on the higher Vtec cam PROFILE, not cam as originally stated.[/QB]</font>couldnt you do that with a VAFC? and what do you mean 'so lift is no longer a variable'? more lift at low rpm =/= more power [ 13 May 2002, 06:37 PM: Message edited by: rl ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.