Hiroshima - 08-06-1945

[HotCarl]

Wasn't there also a brief attack on the mainland of Washington state? Pre-Pearl Harbor, a Japanese sub shelled an army base, the soldier's were ordered not to return fire for one reason or another?

[The Man of Steele]

 

Another reason that I feel we dropped Little boy and fat man was to keep the Soviets in place post war. We could have had a problem (more so than what we did) with the soviets, fighting us for land after the fall of the Axis.

 

post #12

[Science Abuse]

I was waiting for someone to mention it. While Balloon bombs were hardly effective at attacking our infrastructure their main idea behind the plan was to put fear in the head's of american's that a mainland attack was possible. The other plan behind it was to (hopefully) cause some sort of wildfire with the ordanance loaded on the balloon. I think the balloon bombs caused like 3 death's in a few years, and they were hikers... I think. At that the government's official assesment of the death's wasn't even related to the balloon's themselves but some sort of "accident" (ie, coverup).

Yup. I think there were more then 3 killed. Many made it to the mainland, but dropped inthe middle of nowhere. One landed but didn't detonate. It was found by a picknicing family. No one knows what happend, but it went off while most of them were standing around it. A kid probably kicked the thing.

This was in Washington state.

[HAOLE]

Yes they did, and they succeded. It wasn't accurate, and we eventually bombed it, but they did get ordinance over here (soon after they discovered the jet stream). Also, nuclear weapons would have been the means to get stuff over here. One suicide bomber per battle group, they could get their carriers over here.

Also remember, they did successfully take and hold american soil... cold soil, for a short time.

 

I was refering to '45. They were crippled to the point they had now way of striking that distance, if they could have... they would have.

 

I know all about the hot air balloon bombs, they were a waste of the Japanese resources, very small payload, very inaccurate.

 

He bankrupted us, too. Wiat untill you retire, all that money came from somewhere.

 

Spent alot of money... but ended to cold war. He instituted financial policies that gave us the 90's economy, until slick Willy screwed it up.

[LPFSTheFett]

I think after 1945 we got way to relaxed on how we fight our wars. The media and other contries are constantly lashing out at us about everything our military does. We put someones underwear on their head and the United States is full of horrible people and trying to take over the world. The president needs fired, the soliders that did it need life in prison. I mean come on...

 

Yet the other countries cut our soilders heads off and it's no big deal.

 

Look at how wars were faught 200 years ago, Invading Army's came in and killed everybody that gave any resistance. Then what do you know the war was over.

 

Now we go in, pussy foot our way around because we are worried how people are going to look at us. Wars last longer, more and more lives are lost on both ends and it takes forever for something to get accomplished.

 

My Grandfather faught in WW2 on one of the worst Japanese islands and I can tell you I 100% support our decision to drop the bombs. When we are at war with another country, what are our goals in order?

 

1. Win the wars ASAP while losing the least american lives as possible.

 

Since 1945, we've added 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. and still can't win on the political front with other countries.

 

Jason`

[LPFSTheFett]

There was a News cast on TV one day that showed a picture of some big Al-Qaeda leaders at a funeral. However because it was a cemetery we couldn't engage and take out the targets. So they went free and more american lives will be lost.

 

Last I checked if criminal in the US were to flee into a cemetery and then pull a gun on an officer, he'd get shot.

[SPLN SUX]

Even if we hadnt dropped the bomb, the war would have been an air and sea battle with minimal ground support. It would have been fought with battle ships, carriers, B17/25's, and Hellcats... in which case was a severe advantage against the japanese in the battle for air superiority. Zeros never had a chance.

 

Hellcat history in the Pacific war: first of 5, find the rest in the side bar.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7XJGsbhCgc

[HAOLE]

Even if we hadnt dropped the bomb, the war would have been an air and sea battle with minimal ground support. It would have been fought with battle ships, carriers, B17/25's, and Hellcats... in which case was a severe advantage against the japanese in the battle for air superiority. Zeros never had a chance.

 

Hellcat history in the Pacific war: first of 5, find the rest in the side bar.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7XJGsbhCgc

Please don't tell me you are serious. Wars are not won through the sea and air campaigns, they are won with boots on the ground. Unless you drop some thing in the range of megatons.

[SPLN SUX]

Please don't tell me you are serious. Wars are not won through the sea and air campaigns, they are won with boots on the ground. Unless you drop some thing in the range of megatons.

 

Dont think about todays precision ground force attacks, were talking about 1945. Back then it was all about stratgicly eliminating your enimies resources long before a single boot touched a beach head. In this case, the Hellcats were running kill ratios of 19:1, and they had no problems taking out the destroyer ships.

 

Id like to think that the US Navy would have done just like they did with Wake Island, with all of the islands off the coast of Japan, and taken them one by one, fianlly using one as a runway to fly B17's, and B25's dropping hundreds of thousands of pounds of bombs over the southern end of the main land. Then and ONLY then, would the ground forces be used in full force to finish the job. The advantage there would be our Naval bombardment, and mass amount of armor to find to the end of a long grusome war.

 

But thats just how i picture it.

[HAOLE]

Dont think about todays precision ground force attacks, were talking about 1945. Back then it was all about stratgicly eliminating your enimies resources long before a single boot touched a beach head. In this case, the Hellcats were running kill ratios of 19:1, and they had no problems taking out the destroyer ships.

 

Id like to think that the US Navy would have done just like they did with Wake Island, with all of the islands off the coast of Japan, and taken them one by one, fianlly using one as a runway to fly B17's, and B25's dropping hundreds of thousands of pounds of bombs over the southern end of the main land. Then and ONLY then, would the ground forces be used in full force to finish the job. The advantage there would be our Naval bombardment, and mass amount of armor to find to the end of a long grusome war.

 

But thats just how i picture it.

It think the Marines thought the same thing before Iwo Jima. Bombs don't chase people out of caves.

[SPLN SUX]

It think the Marines thought the same thing before Iwo Jima. Bombs don't chase people out of caves.

 

yes but that was a mistake in intelligence on our end. What was thought to be a few caves and some machine guns dug in deep, was actully a huge underground fortress that was almost completely self sustainable. Had the Marines known what they were going up against, i bet the stratagy would have been different.

[Scotty2Hotty]

That's where the first hibachi came from. Human hibachi

[HAOLE]

yes but that was a mistake in intelligence on our end. What was thought to be a few caves and some machine guns dug in deep, was actully a huge underground fortress that was almost completely self sustainable. Had the Marines known what they were going up against, i bet the stratagy would have been different.

How could it have been any different? They bombed the place, killed everything living on the surface. The Marines still had to run them out of the caves....

[SPLN SUX]

How could it have been any different? They bombed the place, killed everything living on the surface. The Marines still had to run them out of the caves....

 

Im not sure, and its probably because im not a General. But if i had to make the call, know what we know now, i think i would rely more on the use of flamethrowers and percusion grenades, than trying to crawl into a cave with a .45 and a little flash light. Id go for broke and try to sufficate them. Block all the exits you can find and start as many fires as you can. Primitive, but it might work.

[ORourke]

I doubt you could find any soldier, sailor or marine serving in 1945, especially in the infantry, who would have preferred an amphibious assault on mainland Japan rather than dropping the atomic bomb, which was the only other option considering that the Japanese(those guys who attacked us and started the war, remember them?) refused to consider surrender after we destroyed their ability to actually win the war. They were going to hold out and kill as many Americans as possible until we dropped the bombs, and they wouldn't even surrender after the first one on Hiroshima! We gave them three days and then dropped another, war over, an estimated 500,000 GI's and several million Japanese get to live(based on causulty estimates for an invasion of the Japanese home islands)...sounds like a bargain to me.

 

Why are people bitching about it now?

[Patrick]

The use of Fat Man and Little Boy was justified. Think of it as putting a kid in a corner for something, then have that kid come out and keep on doing the thing he was punished for. Then comes the spanking.

 

People are bitching about it now because it is a relevant issue today. Have one big event happen and save a lot of other lives and grief, or spread it out with more destruction.

 

btw, reading on it more wiki/other resources, a few British POW's were mining in the area, and found out only after they came out; and Hiroshima survivors went to Nagasaki and got bombed again.

[Science Abuse]

until slick Willy screwed it up.

You like to think that, dont you? Fact of the matter is, Ronnies tweaks were short term solutions to long term problems, they would have never lasted. Willy didn't screw it up, he just happened to be there whent hey failed. Then there's his brilliant supply-side econ. It would have workd, sure, just like communism would have worked. The problem with both is that humans are involved. The upper crust just took their extra money and invested it in overseas manufacture. Trickle-Up economics gutted our countries base.

Republicans = The Bandaid Party. Got gangreen? We have a solution, flesh colored spraypaint, gimme that arm! *Spsshhhhhhhhhhhhh* See, good as new!

 

Think of it as putting a kid in a corner for something.

Have you seen the pictures of what it did to the survivors? I recomend doing this on a full stomach. Their bitch move was an unprovoked suprise attack of a military installation. Our retaliation was burning to death 250,000 civilians, and mutilating half a million. As much as I hate the Pearl harbor move, there is simply no comparison.

[SPLN SUX]

You like to think that, dont you? Fact of the matter is, Ronnies tweaks were short term solutions to long term problems, they would have never lasted. Willy didn't screw it up, he just happened to be there whent hey failed. Then there's his brilliant supply-side econ. It would have workd, sure, just like communism would have worked. The problem with both is that humans are involved. The upper crust just took their extra money and invested it in overseas manufacture. Trickle-Up economics gutted our countries base.

Republicans = The Bandaid Party. Got gangreen? We have a solution, flesh colored spraypaint, gimme that arm! *Spsshhhhhhhhhhhhh* See, good as new!

 

 

Have you seen the pictures of what it did to the survivors? I recomend doing this on a full stomach. Their bitch move was an unprovoked suprise attack of a military installation. Our retaliation was burning to death 250,000 civilians, and mutilating half a million. As much as I hate the Pearl harbor move, there is simply no comparison.

 

Exactly. Though civilians are sometimes hit in heavy bombing of military instalations, that is collateral damage... its almost unavoidable, at least back in 1945. What we did was drop a bomb in the middle of a highly populated area to prove a point as to how much pain and suffering we could inflict with minimal resources... to show our power ... im sorry but that was the wrong message. There was another guy that did the same thing... sent bombs into densely populated citys to induce fear... Adolf Hitler with the V2 rocket.

[HAOLE]

You like to think that, dont you? Fact of the matter is, Ronnies tweaks were short term solutions to long term problems, they would have never lasted. Willy didn't screw it up, he just happened to be there whent hey failed. Then there's his brilliant supply-side econ. It would have workd, sure, just like communism would have worked. The problem with both is that humans are involved. The upper crust just took their extra money and invested it in overseas manufacture. Trickle-Up economics gutted our countries base.

Republicans = The Bandaid Party. Got gangreen? We have a solution, flesh colored spraypaint, gimme that arm! *Spsshhhhhhhhhhhhh* See, good as new!

 

So what did slick Willy do to help the economy?

[Science Abuse]

So what did slick Willy do to help the economy?

 

-Apart from turning a record defficit into a record surplus? (back into massive defficit by your brilliant Bush-2)

-Apart from the 22million new jobs, 90% private, the most jobs ever created under a single administration, and more than were created in the previous 12 years?

-Apart from lowering unemployment to its lowest levels in more than 30 years?

-Apart from averaging an economic growth of 4.0% per year? (Ronnie only got 2.8%)

-Apart from 116 consecutive months of growth, the most in history?

-Apart from the median household income increasing $6000 in 6 years?

-Apart from lowering inflation by half from Bush-1, the lowest level since Kennedy?

-Apart from the highest home ownership rate in history? (went down 2% from 1981 to 1993, and up 4% from 93 to 99)

-Apart from the poverty rate declining by almost 4%?

-Apart from the lowest federal gub'mint spending sin 1966?

-Apart from balancing the budget without using the using the Medicare trust fund for the first time since Medicare was created in 1965?

 

He did nothing but kick back and get his dick sucked. Gawd the Clinton years sucked...lawz pun!

[Mowgli1647545497]

The japanese were not above civilian attacks. They just couldn't attack *our* civilians in any measure meaningful. But ask the Chinese, ask the Koreans, ask the Philipinos, ask the Australians, ask anyone in the pacific rim just how honorable the imperial japanese army was.

 

Please don't portray imperial japan as somehow morally superior to the contempory United States. Ask China how honorable the japanese were in war. Facts remain that we treated our enemies far better than japan ever did. Facts remain that we treated our "vanquished contries" better than any axis power did over their conquered territory - and we gave ours back.

 

Today's fashion of America hating and self-loathing cannot alter facts. Cherry pick events, yes. Distort statistics, ets. Cover up incovenient reality, yes, But not change what happened.

 

More people died in the Dresden bombings and in the Tokyo firestorm bombings than in both atomic bombs combined. More people died at the battle of Stalingrad than all of these combined. Dead is dead.

 

Do not cry out against America for what Japan's leadership brought on to their people. The japanese should be enraged at the Tojo govt, not Truman. The smart ones were and are. You do not start a war and then criticize the manner in which your victim ends it. The culture of the Japanese of the 50s was of immense shame for what THEY did. Only as these men who actually fought died off an another generation came into adulthood did that start to change.

 

A generation with no knowledge of what actually happened.

 

I don't give a shit what anime protrays because I know from personal friends who grew up in Osaka what history Japanese public schools did *not* teach them (indeed were banned from teaching them) for the past 50 years. 20 something cartoon artists weened on pop culture and internet half-histories are not even remotely a source for unbiased historical perspective.

 

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<- step-grandfather at Pearl Harbor. Biological grandfather killed in Ardennes. Grand Uncle at Iwo Jima. Grand Uncle in Bataan death march.

[Mowgli1647545497]

Also - if we're going to talk about the war with Japan or are at all interested in the conflict, you owe it to yourself to visit http://www.combinedfleet.com/kaigun.htm

 

This is a japanese website, about the japanese wwii navy, but regardless it is excellently written, studied, and has some really good insights into the wider conflict (beyond the big boats knocking heads). Particularly:

 

Why Japan really lost the war.

 

I'll quote the conclusion:

In retrospect, it is difficult to comprehend how Japan's leadership managed to rationalize their way around the economic facts when they contemplated making war on the U.S. After all, these were not stupid men. Indeed, internal Imperial Navy studies conducted in 1941 showed exactly the trends in naval shipbuilding I have outlined above. In the end, however, the Tojo government chose the path of aggression, compelled by internal political dynamics which made the prospect of a general Japanese disengagement in China (which was the only means by which the American economic embargo would have been lifted) too humiliating a course to be taken. Consequently, the Japanese embarked on what can only be described as a suicidal venture, against an overwhelmingly large foe. However, their greatest mistake was not just disregarding the economic muscle which lay partially dormant on the other side of the Pacific. In actuality, their chief error lay in misreading the will of the American people. When the American giant awoke, it did not lapse into despair as a result of the defeats that Japan had inflicted upon it. Rather, it awoke in a rage, and applied every ounce of its tremendous strength with a cold, methodical fury against its foe. The grim price Japan paid -- 1.8 million military casualties, the complete annihilation of its military, a half million or so civilians killed, and the utter destruction of practically every major urban area within the Home Islands -- bears mute testimony to the folly of its militarist leaders.

and also, from his disclaimer page:

This site delivers military history to the Web... period. It in no way condones, nor is it intended to be a glorification of, any of the activities of the Imperial Japanese Navy or Army during the Pacific War. The Japanese committed unspeakable acts of aggression and oppression during World War II, and received the defeat they very richly deserved at the hands of the Allies. That being said, though, they had a fascinating, thoroughly professional, and formidable Navy. Studying that Navy is the overriding purpose of this site.

 

This site is also dedicated to promoting a greater understanding of what went on during the war, so that such conflicts do not occur again. As a result, I have little time or patience for words or activities that detract from the healing process that is still ongoing from the war. My many friends in the U.S. WWII veteran community all cheerfully understand that, and you should, too. If you still harbor ethnic hatreds as a result of the war, please take those feelings (and yourself) elsewhere immediately.

 

and:

http://www.combinedfleet.com/friends.jpg

[HotCarl]

I miss Mowgli

[Science Abuse]

I listed one example, not every example. Personally, I like the people of Germany and Russia. Doesn't mean everyone does. Japan has their pride and a long memory.

 

Point taken on Japanese WW2 ethics. The people of China and Taiwan got shafted from 3 directions during that Era. With "freinds" like Mao and Shek, who needs enemies?

[HAOLE]

-Apart from turning a record defficit into a record surplus? (back into massive defficit by your brilliant Bush-2)

-Apart from the 22million new jobs, 90% private, the most jobs ever created under a single administration, and more than were created in the previous 12 years?

-Apart from lowering unemployment to its lowest levels in more than 30 years?

-Apart from averaging an economic growth of 4.0% per year? (Ronnie only got 2.8%)

-Apart from 116 consecutive months of growth, the most in history?

-Apart from the median household income increasing $6000 in 6 years?

-Apart from lowering inflation by half from Bush-1, the lowest level since Kennedy?

-Apart from the highest home ownership rate in history? (went down 2% from 1981 to 1993, and up 4% from 93 to 99)

-Apart from the poverty rate declining by almost 4%?

-Apart from the lowest federal gub'mint spending sin 1966?

-Apart from balancing the budget without using the using the Medicare trust fund for the first time since Medicare was created in 1965?

 

He did nothing but kick back and get his dick sucked. Gawd the Clinton years sucked...lawz pun!

So what policies of his made that stuff happen?

 

You did not answer the question...