Time for a political debate

[El Karacho1647545492]

Turns out the Demoncrats aren't as for peace and order as we thought.

 

http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/08/23/nie/index.html

 

For once, I agree with Bush. Whether or not al-Maliki is doing a good job, why the fuck are our senators wasting their goddamn time talking about how the Iraqi parliament should oust their leader when we can't even get our Congress to push through a 60% majority vote on ANYTHING except shit to keep spending money in Iraq.

 

And Hillary says they want a "less divisive and more unifying figure". Well what the fuck is more unifying than religion? It just shows how fucking ignorant our politicians are. WE ARE NOT GOING TO HAVE A UNIFIED IRAQ. THE SUNNIS AND SHIITES ARE ALWAYS GOING TO HATE EACH OTHER. IT HAS BEEN THAT WAY FOR OVER HALF A MILLENIUM, ITS NOT GOING TO FUCKING CHANGE WITH THE LEADER OF ONE COUNTRY. I am all for the separation of church and state, but in a place like Iraq it is impossible. If we try and put a leader in power that is unifying, I guarantee that country will be charred and razed within 5 years. Anyone who knows anything about Islam should realize that it just isn't going to happen. You can call them backwards and ignorant all you like, but they're not going to change. We have to allow them to set their rules before we try to set ours. That way, at least we wouldn't COMPLETELY appear to be trying to set up a puppet government.

 

So what happens when we all decide that al-Maliki is an unfit leader...do we just activate all our troops, sieze Baghdad again, and put another government in place?

[HotCarl]

I read something interesting on Yahoo News last night that several high political and military officials have abandoned the thought of a true democracy in Iraq and quoted as saying, "A democracy cleary wont work, right now we'll take anything that will give the people in Iraq some sort of stable, safe government that will protect them"...

 

Nothing like bailing out now huh?

[Science Abuse]

Wrong forum:

[move to]http://www.columbusracing.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=36[/move to]

 

"Bail out?" We should have never been there in the first place, many people have been saying it since the beginning. Think of it this way; Some one convinces you to grab onto a red hot oven burner, then they tell you "only cowards let go!". It's something that will only get worse. A democracy will not work int hat country now. We had a shot at keeping things right, but no one had a plan for post-invasion Iraq.

 

Truth of the matter is, there's way too much money being made off of the war for it to end or be properly faught. Of all the billions of dollars spent on it, only around half has gone to military efforts, if that. The rest is going to the privat companies that make war happen. Compare 2000 haliburton stock to 2007. They're not the only ones. It's no coincedence that everyone who made the descision to go to war had, at one time or another, been involved with a PMC or energy contractor.

There has been close to $380,000,000,000 spent on iraq. Very little goes to troop pay, the rest goes to war consumables, which are produced by private companies. By sending us to war, President bush created a (averaged) 76 BILLION dollar a year industry.

 

"OMG that's awsome for our economy!" No, its awsome for their economy. It's also costing the lives of our troops. That's measured not only in lives lost, but years lost. A good freind of mine has missed out on most of his wifes pregnancy, and the first year of his boys life. What's that worth to you?

We are certainly no safer, this fact cannot be argued. There are, in fact, more terrorists in the world now then ever before in history. Teh fact that they're in one place for now does not make anything safer.

[HAOLE]

I will in in the discussion as soon as I am not busy at work....

[Skinner]

Wrong forum:

[move to]http://www.columbusracing.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=36[/move to]

 

 

 

not yet will stay here as long as it go south.

[mrblunt]

Wrong forum:

[move to]http://www.columbusracing.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=36[/move to]

 

"Bail out?" We should have never been there in the first place, many people have been saying it since the beginning. Think of it this way; Some one convinces you to grab onto a red hot oven burner, then they tell you "only cowards let go!". It's something that will only get worse. A democracy will not work int hat country now. We had a shot at keeping things right, but no one had a plan for post-invasion Iraq.

 

Truth of the matter is, there's way too much money being made off of the war for it to end or be properly faught. Of all the billions of dollars spent on it, only around half has gone to military efforts, if that. The rest is going to the privat companies that make war happen. Compare 2000 haliburton stock to 2007. They're not the only ones. It's no coincedence that everyone who made the descision to go to war had, at one time or another, been involved with a PMC or energy contractor.

There has been close to $380,000,000,000 spent on iraq. Very little goes to troop pay, the rest goes to war consumables, which are produced by private companies. By sending us to war, President bush created a (averaged) 76 BILLION dollar a year industry.

 

"OMG that's awsome for our economy!" No, its awsome for their economy. It's also costing the lives of our troops. That's measured not only in lives lost, but years lost. A good freind of mine has missed out on most of his wifes pregnancy, and the first year of his boys life. What's that worth to you?

We are certainly no safer, this fact cannot be argued. There are, in fact, more terrorists in the world now then ever before in history. Teh fact that they're in one place for now does not make anything safer.

 

Don't question the administration, its super-uber unpatriotic.

 

 

FWIW I completely agree with you. The problem is no one wants to accept that the shit isn't working and they were wrong. Rather they make you sound like your against your country for asking questions and making alternative suggestions. Dick knew it was a cluster F back in 94, but then spouted how we'd be greeted as liberators and it would all be over in a few weeks. I guess if my wallet stood to grow by a few hundred percent I'd change my tone as well.

[El Karacho1647545492]

it hasn't become a political chimpanzee poo-flinging fight yet, so for now it stays in the parking lot. i eagerly await the doctor's comments

[copperhead]

We need to become isolationists. Fuck the rest of the world. Abandon our foreign bases, and cut off aid to all other countries. The rest of the world can implode, fuck em, seems to me thats what they all want anyway.

[Supplicium]

To the "We shouldnt have been there in the first place" people...

 

Remember they attacked our country killed tons of people and change our lives and our way of life forever. We needed to do something.

 

Most countries lets say China. If a 911 style attack happened to them they would bomb the shit out of Iraq/Iran/Afgany then bounce the fuck out.

 

America took the liberty to go after the bad guy, and help the innocent people of the countries we invaded rebuild there country for a better life. 78 billion dollars does not matter. We were already hundreds of billion dollars in debt.

 

Name one country that would do what we do?

 

Now I agree, the plan is not working, our troops are dying, they are way under paid, but they did volunteer and knew what they were getting into. I am in no way shape or form talking down on soldiers or their worth of life. I have 8 friends all over the world now and one is back home with 8 bullets in him but survived.

[El Karacho1647545492]

To the "We shouldnt have been there in the first place" people...

 

Remember they attacked our country killed tons of people and change our lives and our way of life forever. We needed to do something.

 

Most countries lets say China. If a 911 style attack happened to them they would bomb the shit out of Iraq/Iran/Afgany then bounce the fuck out.

 

America took the liberty to go after the bad guy, and help the innocent people of the countries we invaded rebuild there country for a better life. 78 billion dollars does not matter. We were already hundreds of billion dollars in debt.

 

Name one country that would do what we do?

 

Now I agree, the plan is not working, our troops are dying, they are way under paid, but they did volunteer and knew what they were getting into. I am in no way shape or form talking down on soldiers or their worth of life. I have 8 friends all over the world now and one is back home with 8 bullets in him but survived.

 

Uh. Dude. Iraq didn't attack us.

[Mattsn2o281]

So iraq had a connection to 9/11? i dont think so, and its been proven time and again that they had nothing to do with it, So that excuse is bullshit, prue and simple.

 

Oh wait they had wmd. Did they? really? shit so do we, so does a good bit of the countries around the world. the scale on which they were portrayed has been proven to be wrong, and an outright lie to envoke fear and spur the war effort in my opinion.

 

Saddam was evil and cruel. Yea so? So are 99.9% of dictatorships around the world. Are we gonna go solve all the worlds problems? I fucking hope not.

 

Just because a country has chem/bio/nuclear weapons does not mean we are to attack them under the guise of self defense. When and if we are attacked or can trace the organizations back to a home state like the case with the taliban/bin ladin and afganistan, then and only then do we have a case for going to war. We are portraying many traits comparible to the roman empire in its final days with our globetrotting philosopy and save the world from itsself attitude.

 

Finaly, what country would do what we do? none. most have learned the hard way that we you spread your recources thin you tend to break your own back under the strain. england pulled all it's colonial ambitions, france has done the same thing, and russia has bankrupted it economy trying to hold on to former states of the ussr.

We are the only country right now stupid enough to be doing what we are doing...

[HAOLE]

it hasn't become a political chimpanzee poo-flinging fight yet, so for now it stays in the parking lot. i eagerly await the doctor's comments

I am keeping you in suspense...

[El Karacho1647545492]

I am keeping you in suspense...

FUCK YOU, i saw that you were the last to post in this thread and was wondering where it was gonna go...

[Guest 614Streets]

We need to become isolationists. Fuck the rest of the world.

 

My 100% stainless steel silverware made in china began to rust after sitting in the sink a few days

 

But what I want to know is who are we? If "we" need to become isolationists that pretty much means our own new cival war. The system wins. We need a rabid muslim hating foaming at the mouth jerk for a president. Somebody with a nasty temper like scarface and the wit like general patton.

 

Eh nevermind I just remembered, the system wins , banks run everything ,

nothing changes.

[Science Abuse]

We need to become isolationists. Fuck the rest of the world. Abandon our foreign bases, and cut off aid to all other countries. The rest of the world can implode, fuck em, seems to me thats what they all want anyway.

Worked out great for China.

 

 

Remember they attacked our country killed tons of people and change our lives and our way of life forever. We needed to do something.

No, I don't remember Iraqi's coming over here and killing us. For gods sake, the ones that did come here moved to Detroit, because it was "nice".

Everything you posted is everything that you were fed to get your support for the war, you're one of a dwindling few that still holds onto it.

Afghanistan is where we needed to bring the fight, and we did...poorly. The president announced for a week or two that we were coming for OBL, knowing full well that it would give him plenty of time to run, prolonging the conflict and making it worth more. BTW, what was the first thing that was done int he liberated country? A pipeline was built, one that the Taliban was resisting (asking more money for). Who's the man with the funny hat that ran the counrty after the invasion? Read up, he's got an interesting (and I'm sure purely coincedental) resume.

After we cleared the country, we forgot about it, now the Taliban is a problem again, an insurgent problem.

 

They took their eye off the ball. They are not fighting terrorism, they are merely killing terrorists. Guess what, there's 1 or two born for every one you kill. Military action will not stop terrorism, period, there is no debate.

 

Re money and debt, it 360 billion and counting. You laugh at the debt because you plan on passing it on. It wont effect you, to hell with your kids and grandkids 2nd Depession.

 

 

How do we know Iraq wanted chemical weapons? Easy, we kept the receipts! True fuking story, all the Iranians that got gasses would have gotten it if we hadn't helped Sadam get it. Why does Iran hate freedom? They don't, pick up a book and find out why they're pissed.

[HAOLE]

On Monday, Sen. Carl Levin, the Michigan Democrat who is chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee, called on the Iraqi parliament to oust al-Maliki's "nonfunctioning" government.

 

Al-Maliki and his Cabinet are "too beholden to religious and sectarian leaders" to reach a political settlement that would end the country's sectarian and insurgent violence, Levin said.

 

I find it odd that Sen. Levin says that the Iraqis have a non functioning Government. The Dems have created a stalemate in our government by undermining the President. There is nothing wrong with a dissenting opinion, until it give strength of encouragement to the enemy.

 

Levein also says that Al-Maliki is to beholden to religious and secterian leaders. That is like the pot calling the kettle black. There was a time when the Dems were an honorable group, that time has past. It left in the early 60's. Now the Dems are beholden to every left wing group that has an agenda. Nambla, Peta, ect.

 

 

 

 

Claiming the lack of political progress in Iraq is "unacceptable," Clinton further said, "I share Sen. Levin's hope that the Iraqi parliament will replace Prime Minister al-Maliki with a less divisive and more unifying figure when it returns in a few weeks."

 

Let me rephrase this... " I hope the replace him with someone that we know will never get the job done."

[HotCarl]

There was a time when the Dems were an honorable group, that time has past. It left in the early 60's. Now the Dems are beholden to every left wing group that has an agenda. Nambla, Peta, ect.

 

The same could be said for the Republican's. Someone made a good point that every decision maker in this war was, at one point of time, going to benefit monetarily from a war with Iraq. And guess what happened? You say dem's are simply a sounding board for every left wing group, so what is the religious right (Focus on the Family, etc...) to the republican's? Lets not get into the 'honor in politics' argument because we will both lose.

[El Karacho1647545492]

Now the Dems are beholden to every left wing group that has an agenda. Nambla, Peta, ect.

 

R u serios? U canot be serios.

 

 

I don't think either PETA or NAMBLA have much of a say in Democratic votes. If the Dems were really under control of the buffalo-loving, boy-raping groups of America, I think we'd be in a much worse situation. What those fucked-up groups do and who they support are much more radical politicians like Ralph Nader, they're not jumping on Barack Obama's bandwagon.

 

Still, I see what you're getting at, but it goes both ways and it has for years. Large industry has always had the Republicans by the nuts, and the bleeding hearts have always owned the Democrats.

[HAOLE]

The same could be said for the Republican's. Someone made a good point that every decision maker in this war was, at one point of time, going to benefit monetarily from a war with Iraq. And guess what happened? You say dem's are simply a sounding board for every left wing group, so what is the religious right (Focus on the Family, etc...) to the republican's? Lets not get into the 'honor in politics' argument because we will both lose.

At least the right does not bow down to the people of NAMBLA, and the Rainbow flag convention.

[HAOLE]

R u serios? U canot be serios.

 

Large industry has always had the Republicans by the nuts, and the bleeding hearts have always owned the Democrats.

Sounds about right....

[HotCarl]

Sounds about right....

 

So you're saying its better to be bought out by your greed than it is for a cause?

 

Like I said, this argument is retarded and repetitive, it can go both ways for hours. Make your counterpoint about the topic the thread was created about b/c I know you have one

[Conesmasher]

The BIGGEST problems with the Iraq war:

 

1) We didn't come in with all guns blazing, not enough of a presence, no SHOCK AND AWE. That was a strategic failure.

 

2) If you walk away, you lose on more than just the war.

 

3) Bush is quite possibly the worlds most idiotic communicator.

 

 

We should have came in a lot stronger in this war, I'm no general, but I think that we've got much bigger balls than we displayed the first year or so.

 

There are no WMD's. Iraq did not attack us on 9/11. Osama is not caught yet. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. These are all mediocre at best talking points.

 

Have we not figured out the bigger picture? It's not about avenging our killers. We are trying to get them, but that's not the overall objective.

 

 

 

We are out to create stability in a region of the world that has never seen stability. Why you ask?

 

The bottom line is it's all about the oil and protecting the way of life in The United States of America. Bush isn't going to get rich off of this war and I don't think Cheney will either........you can say all the things you want about how their corrupt, how their in it for the money, etc.....but I think it's a mute point.

 

 

This war is about bringing the fruits of democracy to a region that has been ruled by dictators for years. It's the equivalent to giving freedom to a woman, who has been beaten by her husband for years and is just too scared to leave. You have to make it happen, you have to show her the way to success, self-rightousness, and get her back on her feet so she can kick HIS ass, the next time he tries to topple her.

 

Our economy is so driven by the oil that we use. That oil represents our strength and our backbone. If you take away the oil, it can crush us into poverty that our country has never known.

 

In many ways our oil represents our freedom. The second part of the equation is putting the smack down on the islamic extremists who think that our freedom is theirs for the taking.

[HAOLE]

The BIGGEST problems with the Iraq war:

 

1) We didn't come in with all guns blazing, not enough of a presence, no SHOCK AND AWE. That was a strategic failure.

 

2) If you walk away, you lose on more than just the war.

 

3) Bush is quite possibly the worlds most idiotic communicator.

 

 

We should have came in a lot stronger in this war, I'm no general, but I think that we've got much bigger balls than we displayed the first year or so.

 

There are no WMD's. Iraq did not attack us on 9/11. Osama is not caught yet. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. These are all mediocre at best talking points.

 

Have we not figured out the bigger picture? It's not about avenging our killers. We are trying to get them, but that's not the overall objective.

 

 

 

We are out to create stability in a region of the world that has never seen stability. Why you ask?

 

The bottom line is it's all about the oil and protecting the way of life in The United States of America. Bush isn't going to get rich off of this war and I don't think Cheney will either........you can say all the things you want about how their corrupt, how their in it for the money, etc.....but I think it's a mute point.

 

 

This war is about bringing the fruits of democracy to a region that has been ruled by dictators for years. It's the equivalent to giving freedom to a woman, who has been beaten by her husband for years and is just too scared to leave. You have to make it happen, you have to show her the way to success, self-rightousness, and get her back on her feet so she can kick HIS ass, the next time he tries to topple her.

 

Our economy is so driven by the oil that we use. That oil represents our strength and our backbone. If you take away the oil, it can crush us into poverty that our country has never known.

 

In many ways our oil represents our freedom. The second part of the equation is putting the smack down on the islamic extremists who think that our freedom is theirs for the taking.

 

well said!

[Science Abuse]

We are out to create stability in a region of the world that has never seen stability.

Not entirely correct. Stability came in two flavors:

-Strong arm Monarchies

-Iron fisted dictatorships.

 

Life is too hard in the desert, people are too pissed off to get along without being forced to. As tribal nomads, if a sect pissed you off you could just leave. Giving them our society destabilized the region, it just doesn't work. The same can be said about jungle regions.

[Scotty2Hotty]

I am keeping you in suspense...

I'm working on what to say, all I hear is speculate this and speculate that. Madi malitia will probably end up running the country, I don't doubt it. They've had strong holds in the police, government, army, and not to mention religion. So that will stand, however the Sunni's are going to rise up at some form. It's bound to happen, Iran and Al-Qaeda have picked their sides over there, and if you don't believe me fuck you I saw it with my own 2 eyes and so did countless others. That's all I want to contribute to this, I'm sick of talking about it and seeing people try to put what they think, and what was said on the internet. Like it or not, this was never going to be a 100 hour "war" like the Gulf war was. They stopped short, we got the fucking golden goose. Rebuild plan is and was fucked, it ain't as easy as fucking legos here people. It's going to take time, and it's obvious to those that ain't been there know nothing about. Spend close to 3 years of your life over there and tell me about time. We're doing what we can, what we're told, we don't do the politic part.