cmoosego Posted December 8, 2008 Report Share Posted December 8, 2008 it doesn't take money or power to get your voice out there.... you did it with your soup can and a ball of twine..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disclaimer Posted December 8, 2008 Report Share Posted December 8, 2008 Not according to PrincessPratt's quote.And you still answered neither of my questions (though I suppose the last one was rhetorical). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fonzie Posted December 8, 2008 Author Report Share Posted December 8, 2008 Not according to PrincessPratt's quote.And you still answered neither of my questions (though I suppose the last one was rhetorical).'Bout time they started bitin'......My "pole" hand was gettin' tired! BTW Justin.....Ben's letter was an email forward I got & cut/pasted here Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disclaimer Posted December 8, 2008 Report Share Posted December 8, 2008 'Bout time they started bitin'......My "pole" hand was gettin' tired! BTW Justin.....Ben's letter was an email forward I got & cut/pasted here Well, I didn't take any vacation days until Thanksgiving, so I basically only have to work 7 days in December - the rest is vacation or holidays. I got bored. But not bored enough to snopes that letter until now.http://www.snopes.com/politics/soapbox/confessions.aspI'm actually surprised that this particular e-mail forward is actually TRUE. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fonzie Posted December 8, 2008 Author Report Share Posted December 8, 2008 But not bored enough to snopes that letter until now.http://www.snopes.com/politics/soapbox/confessions.aspI'm actually surprised that this particular e-mail forward is actually TRUE.Yup.....I was just waiting for you to ask for my source before I reeled you in Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmoosego Posted December 8, 2008 Report Share Posted December 8, 2008 Not according to PrincessPratt's quote.And you still answered neither of my questions (though I suppose the last one was rhetorical).well I wouldn't call either of the 2 prevalent speakers you proposed as generally "mainstream" I consider them charlatans anyway... any "preacher" out for donations to "further" their message isn't what I would call a "Man of God"..... I'm talking more about the true apostles of Christ... How long has the Catholic church been under attack from all sides? And yet we educate, heal, and minister to more of the "poor" then any other organization.... and yet all we hear about is when a (meaning one) Priest abuses his position and how the Church is covering it up..... but that's kinda off topic..... my point is this, why is it ok to slam christians, then turn around and quote free speech? such as the case in washington state.... where in my opinion the governor needs to be slapped upside the head for allowing such a display to be right next to the christian display.... free speech is fine and good, but judgement in it's use needs to be paramount, or we will see more militant reactions from the "religious right" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disclaimer Posted December 8, 2008 Report Share Posted December 8, 2008 Again, you're confusing "slamming Christians" with simply, a different perspective on things.I don't consider myself atheist, but I am empathetic to their cause. Only in America (and certain European countries) do you have to deal with A LOT more "Christian" things in public than you do secular or 'atheist' things. Or, even religious things in general. If a Jewish person has a right to buy a billboard with a Star of David on it - atheists have just as much of a right to put up one saying God doesn't exist. That's not HATE speech, that's just a different opinion. Why shouldn't atheists get equal time for their cause? We give Republicans and Democrats equal time, so why not religious and non-religious? It's fair.Aren't all preachers out for donations? Why do people tithe? I'll never understand how tithing makes someone better off... God doesn't need money does he? And the priest or preacher or whatever, always get their cut.It's funny you mention militant actions from the religious right...because I don't know of any militant Atheist groups. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
f4isvt Posted December 8, 2008 Report Share Posted December 8, 2008 all religions are cults anyway Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmoosego Posted December 8, 2008 Report Share Posted December 8, 2008 Again, you're confusing "slamming Christians" with simply, a different perspective on things.I don't consider myself atheist, but I am empathetic to their cause. Only in America (and certain European countries) do you have to deal with A LOT more "Christian" things in public than you do secular or 'atheist' things. Or, even religious things in general. If a Jewish person has a right to buy a billboard with a Star of David on it - atheists have just as much of a right to put up one saying God doesn't exist. That's not HATE speech, that's just a different opinion. Why shouldn't atheists get equal time for their cause? We give Republicans and Democrats equal time, so why not religious and non-religious? It's fair.Aren't all preachers out for donations? Why do people tithe? I'll never understand how tithing makes someone better off... God doesn't need money does he? And the priest or preacher or whatever, always get their cut.It's funny you mention militant actions from the religious right...because I don't know of any militant Atheist groups.I don't know what your personal experience with religion is, but where my experience has brought me is this; agreed there are "nutjobs" out there.... but I know that a majority of my "tithing" goes to fund social outreach programs and education. And yes there are militant atheists, they are called anarchists.... and as far as the opinion thing you are right they should have their say, but NOT right next to a christmas display in the statehouse!!! It's inflammitory, and insulting.... if you get a chance read the poster that was/ is on display in washington state... it seems to me that is what it was intended to do... insult. And just to kinda put it into perspective, isn't that kinda Non- PC? It's kinda like the KKK putting up a cross on fountain square in Cincinnati right across from a Jewish Menorah... it was meant to inflame and insult, totally the wrong message for "True" christians... and thats why I was right there telling the city to take it down!!! So, whether you are or aren't an atheist shouldn't matter, it's about common courtesy and respect...yes voice your views... yes have free speech.... but don't extend your rights over someone else's.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
f4isvt Posted December 8, 2008 Report Share Posted December 8, 2008 why cant the have a display in the statehouse technically there should be no type of christmas display. Isn't the church and state supposed to be seperated? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mandova Posted December 8, 2008 Report Share Posted December 8, 2008 all religions are cults anywayJust a thought.........George Washington was a man who belived in God. As Commander in Chief he encouraged his soldiers to also belive in God. He was not know to discuss his faith or preach to others, but he was known to be a private person of faith. He was a promoter of religious freedom.So here are a few very interesting thoughts on the subject..........Religious viewsThough his religious views diverged widely from the orthodox Christianity of his day, throughout his life Jefferson was intensely interested in theology, spirituality, and biblical study. His religious commitment is probably best summarized in his own words as he proclaimed that he belonged to a sect with just one member.Early viewsJefferson was raised in the Church of England at a time when it was the established church in Virginia and the only denomination funded by Virginia tax money. Theologian Avery Dulles reports, "In his college years at William and Mary [Jefferson] came to admire Francis Bacon, Isaac Newton, and John Locke as three great paragons of wisdom. Under the influence of several professors he converted to the deist philosophy."Dulles concludes:“In summary, then, Jefferson was a deist because he believed in one God, in divine providence, in the divine moral law, and in rewards and punishments after death; but did not believe in supernatural revelation. He was a Christian deist because he saw Christianity as the highest expression of natural religion and Jesus as an incomparably great moral teacher. He was not an orthodox Christian because he rejected, among other things, the doctrines that Jesus was the promised Messiah and the incarnate Son of God. Jefferson's religion is fairly typical of the American form of deism in his day.“Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between church and State.”Jefferson believed that each individual has "certain inalienable rights." That is, these rights exist with or without government; man cannot create, take, or give them away. It is the right of "liberty" on which Jefferson is most notable for expounding. He defines it by saying "rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law,' because law is often but the tyrant’s will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual." Hence, for Jefferson, though government cannot create a right to liberty, it can indeed violate it. And the limit of an individual's rightful liberty is not what law says it is but is simply a matter of stopping short of prohibiting other individuals from having the same liberty. A proper government, for Jefferson, is one that not only prohibits individuals in society from infringing on the liberty of other individuals, but also restrains itself from diminishing individual liberty.Jefferson believed that individuals have an innate sense of morality that prescribes right from wrong when dealing with other individuals—that whether they choose to restrain themselves or not, they have an innate sense of the natural rights of others. He even believed that moral sense to be reliable enough that an anarchist society could function well, provided that it was reasonably small. On several occasions, he expressed admiration for tribal, communal way of living of Native Americans: In fact, Jefferson is sometimes seen as a philosophical anarchist.He said in a letter to Colonel Carrington: "I am convinced that those societies (as the Indians) which live without government, enjoy in their general mass an infinitely greater degree of happiness than those who live under the European governments." However, Jefferson believed anarchism to be "inconsistent with any great degree of population." Hence, he did advocate government for the American expanse provided that it exists by "consent of the governed."Regarding the choice of some governments to regulate religion and thought, Jefferson stated:“The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.”This I just threw in here........View on the carrying of armsJefferson’s commitment to liberty extended to many areas of individual freedom. In his "Commonplace Book," he copied a passage from Cesare, Marquis of Beccaria related to the issue of gun control. The quote reads, "Laws that forbid the carrying of arms ... disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes ... Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man."above text taken from : http://www.answers.com/topic/thomas-jefferson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mandova Posted December 8, 2008 Report Share Posted December 8, 2008 why cant the have a display in the statehouse technically there should be no type of christmas display. Isn't the church and state supposed to be seperated?good question, but sadly Christams is not a religious day anymore due to marketing and greed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disclaimer Posted December 8, 2008 Report Share Posted December 8, 2008 I don't know what your personal experience with religion is, but where my experience has brought me is this; agreed there are "nutjobs" out there.... but I know that a majority of my "tithing" goes to fund social outreach programs and education. And yes there are militant atheists, they are called anarchists.... and as far as the opinion thing you are right they should have their say, but NOT right next to a christmas display in the statehouse!!! It's inflammitory, and insulting.... if you get a chance read the poster that was/ is on display in washington state... it seems to me that is what it was intended to do... insult. And just to kinda put it into perspective, isn't that kinda Non- PC? It's kinda like the KKK putting up a cross on fountain square in Cincinnati right across from a Jewish Menorah... it was meant to inflame and insult, totally the wrong message for "True" christians... and thats why I was right there telling the city to take it down!!! So, whether you are or aren't an atheist shouldn't matter, it's about common courtesy and respect...yes voice your views... yes have free speech.... but don't extend your rights over someone else's....There's nothing that says freedom of speech has to be in good taste, or has to be respectful, or courteous. And all those terms are relative anyway. The atheists probably find it insulting that there is a religious display in their courthouse. Step back from your personal bias and put the shoe on the other foot for a minute...empathize a little. Take your passion for religion and imagine, just imagine, that same passion in someone else that is the complete opposite of how you feel, then how you'd like it if someone put up a religious display in a supposed secular place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mandova Posted December 8, 2008 Report Share Posted December 8, 2008 (edited) Government is no good when personal feelings get too envolved. It should be used as a measurement/standard for law....thus I like how Jefferson puts it:Regarding the choice of some governments to regulate religion and thought, Jefferson stated:“The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.”Stop thinking about self for a moment and you may find a tiny bit of room for truth.Hey man, don't allow for the government to rob you blind or bust your bones......that's my silly version. Edited December 8, 2008 by Mandova Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vulcan_Rider Posted December 8, 2008 Report Share Posted December 8, 2008 why cant the have a display in the statehouse technically there should be no type of christmas display. Isn't the church and state supposed to be seperated?Actually no, the wording is seperation of the church from the state, meaning there can not be a government run church. Unfortunatley this has been twisted and stretched to mean whatever people want it to. Its turned into reading between the lines, it doesnt say that you can have the 10 commandments in a government building but it doesnt say that you cant either, so people make it say whatever they want. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
f4isvt Posted December 8, 2008 Report Share Posted December 8, 2008 ^^^^ i understand. That makes perfect sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fonzie Posted December 9, 2008 Author Report Share Posted December 9, 2008 SRSLY? I've heard of Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell...so, who's the "voice of the atheists" in this country? Largest Christian Lobby Group (Christian Coalition of America)http://www.cc.org/about_usAround 30,000 membersLargest Atheist Lobby Group (Freedom From Religion Foundation)http://www.ffrf.org/12,800 membersSo, you tell me, who's got more "strength in numbers" and money to push their agendas? Exactly.Not according to PrincessPratt's quote.And you still answered neither of my questions (though I suppose the last one was rhetorical).Here 'ya go Justin......More hits in one day than the Christian Coalition membership you quotedIf you're not familiar with this group......These are the obnoxious atheists who ask you to post a vid on YouTube denouncing the Holy Spirit, and for performing said blasphemy & condemning your soul to hell......They'll send you a free DVD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
f4isvt Posted December 9, 2008 Report Share Posted December 9, 2008 Just remember god can condemn your to burn in a fire pit of hell for all eternity for your sins, but he loves you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fusion Posted December 9, 2008 Report Share Posted December 9, 2008 Here 'ya go Justin......More hits in one day than the Christian Coalition membership you quotedIf you're not familiar with this group......These are the obnoxious atheists who ask you to post a vid on YouTube denouncing the Holy Spirit, and for performing said blasphemy & condemning your soul to hell......They'll send you a free DVD http://afa.net/Net rank of 18,513. Christian organization that tries to to shove their views down any throat they can find in the guise of family values. Also, much larger than the orgs you guys have mentioned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disclaimer Posted December 9, 2008 Report Share Posted December 9, 2008 (edited) Just remember Fonz - Page hits do not equal membership. I'm not a member, but I increased their page count for 'research purposes' of this thread. Edited December 10, 2008 by JRMMiii Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrincessPratt Posted December 10, 2008 Report Share Posted December 10, 2008 Just remember god can condemn your to burn in a fire pit of hell for all eternity for your sins, but he loves you.I love it when people judge a man they don't even know. Justice and righteousness are the foundations of His throne. It's soooo easy to take a text out of context. He is Love and He gives people many, many chances to accept Him. He is VERY longsuffering with us. How do you think God feels when all those people refuse to acknowledge His existence? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
f4isvt Posted December 10, 2008 Report Share Posted December 10, 2008 righteousness like how he kicked over a roman money table sealing his own fate? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mandova Posted December 10, 2008 Report Share Posted December 10, 2008 righteousness like how he kicked over a roman money table sealing his own fate?Yet he wasn't in the wrong, or do you see it differently? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmoosego Posted December 10, 2008 Report Share Posted December 10, 2008 I swear I'm gonna take a ball bat to the next PC person that insists on wishing me happy holidays!!! It's Merry Christmas and Happy Hanukka ! ( I think I spelled it wrong) USE the CORRECT name for the celebration wussies!!!! I personally don't care if any of you are offended... don't like it? don't participate!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mandova Posted December 10, 2008 Report Share Posted December 10, 2008 (edited) I swear I'm gonna take a ball bat to the next PC person that insists on wishing me happy holidays!!! It's Merry Christmas and Happy Hanukka ! ( I think I spelled it wrong) USE the CORRECT name for the celebration wussies!!!! I personally don't care if any of you are offended... don't like it? don't participate!!!Deep breath man......take a deep breath. Quick to listen, slow to speak, slow to become angry. A soft answer turns away wrath.Think of the word "holiday" as meaning "Holy Day". Have a happy holy day! Merry Christ-mas......the Christ's birthday. Technical wording shouldn't pick your pocket or break your leg.....as Jefferson would say. Don't worry be happy. Edited December 10, 2008 by Mandova Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.