TTQ B4U Posted November 9, 2008 Report Share Posted November 9, 2008 I'm not having problems with my car nor do I plan on any further mods until I know more, but I am curious. What would be the cause of this type of smoke? Based on what I'm reading on various boards, it seems more often than not a downpipe upgrade seems to be the main culprit. Folks start smoking shortly after their upgrade. There's still no clear understanding on those boards, but then I take everything on them with a grain of salt. What are your thoughts? Blown turbo seals? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Removed Posted November 9, 2008 Report Share Posted November 9, 2008 do it all the time..just idleing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TTQ B4U Posted November 9, 2008 Author Report Share Posted November 9, 2008 do it all the time..just idleing? most that I've read about do it while idling. just like the video I linked to. the MS6 and MS3 use the KO4 Turbo if that helps. I'm VW Vortex Much, but know that KO3's are prominant on the 1.8/2.0 motors VW/Audi use. May have to search there for more info too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpaceGhost Posted November 9, 2008 Report Share Posted November 9, 2008 I have a Downpipe on a IHI VF39 with almost 60k and no smoke.... Something is wrong.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TTQ B4U Posted November 9, 2008 Author Report Share Posted November 9, 2008 no doubt something is wrong....I just am trying to learn what "Not to do". The Mazda boards are newer to me, but I can tell most of the folks there have zero clue what they are doing. They are slapping on mods and MBC's without even understanding the basics. I have my guesses, but am not 100% about what is wrong. Many are blowing turbo seals....overboost? Lots of them are running catless DP's and IMO, the smoke is now evident and for obvious reasons, but I could be wrong. It just seems many see the smoke right after their DP upgrades. Backpressure? are they freeing up the motor too much with their mods? I know the gains on the dyno's show big numbers with a DP, which makes it attractive, but if the motor wasn't properly designed to handle them, the gains are worthless IMO. I have a Downpipe on a IHI VF39 with almost 60k and no smoke.... Something is wrong.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Removed Posted November 9, 2008 Report Share Posted November 9, 2008 im thinking lean mix at idle, would cause the smoking..it seemed moist in that video..i mean are they having them retuned at all after mods? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evan9381 Posted November 9, 2008 Report Share Posted November 9, 2008 i may be way off, but if theyre just getting it right after the install, what are the chances its the shit they line the pipes with to bend them burning off? i know i read or heard somewhere they line the tubes with some kind of grese or something to bend them. i know when i put a catback on my old car, it smoked like that a bit as soon as it was started, but after that, i didnt notice anything plus, it was no where near that much smoke Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TTQ B4U Posted November 9, 2008 Author Report Share Posted November 9, 2008 that's the kicker....I've yet to talk with maybe 1-2 of the members that have had their cars tuned at all. that's why I'm asking as once they put these mods on I can't believe they don't have before and after work done to see how the darn thing is responding. some are claiming to use 40w oil, etc...but bottom line is it's a bunch of guessing games over there. has me a little Leary of putting on a DP but then I'd like to be more informed before I do anything of course. your insight is appreciated. im thinking lean mix at idle, would cause the smoking..it seemed moist in that video..i mean are they having them retuned at all after mods? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Removed Posted November 9, 2008 Report Share Posted November 9, 2008 i may be way off, but if theyre just getting it right after the install, what are the chances its the shit they line the pipes with to bend them burning off? i know i read or heard somewhere they line the tubes with some kind of grese or something to bend them. i know when i put a catback on my old car, it smoked like that a bit as soon as it was started, but after that, i didnt notice anything plus, it was no where near that much smoke not if it keeps smoking after a few days Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evan9381 Posted November 9, 2008 Report Share Posted November 9, 2008 right. i was just going off him saying "right after install" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TTQ B4U Posted November 9, 2008 Author Report Share Posted November 9, 2008 right. i was just going off him saying "right after install" where I was going with that is most see it right after the install but were running just fine with zero smoke prior. it's more than just the protective oil coating burning off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokey Posted November 10, 2008 Report Share Posted November 10, 2008 I think you're correct in thinking it's the oil seals in the turbo, that's certainly what it looks like. I guess it could be the rings on the car, but that seems a bit harsh for such a new car. How many people can actually tune those cars with the direct injection? How much can the stock injectors compensate/flow for upgrades even with a tune? Theoretically, turbo seal failure could have been caused by upping the boost too much (you mention MBC's and downpipes), or a very remote possibility of running the car lean/hot and causing damage to them from too much heat, but I know the VW/Audi crowd runs the K04 pretty hard without many issues. I've also seen situations where a drain line for the turbo isn't big enough and it causes the pressure to push back past the seals and into the compressor side of the turbo, but this is on aftermarket installations of new turbos. I think the only way that'd be the cause on the MS3 is if somehow the drain line was being blocked in some way, or if it was kinked in the installation of the downpipe maybe? In the end it's all speculation and you won't know until someone competent tears it apart to see what's really going on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenny Posted November 10, 2008 Report Share Posted November 10, 2008 Have one of them pull the downpipe and look at the exhaust side. If the seal is leaking you will see signs of oil very clearly. The video you posted is exactly what a leaking exhaust seal looks like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clifford Automotive Posted November 10, 2008 Report Share Posted November 10, 2008 I have done two uppipe downpipe installs on Subarus and never saw this problem. Thats odd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farkas Posted November 10, 2008 Report Share Posted November 10, 2008 Tim.. If I had to guess, your speculation is correct about the turbo oil seal. My GTI with a KO3s is starting to do the same and it's simply from over-boost and mods. They're such a small turbo that they generate an enormous amounts of heat and they tend to have a short life after upping the boost so much. Keep in mind they were intended on running 8-10psi from factory; while after being chipped I'm spiking 23 and holding 19-20psi. What happens to me personally, is that after idling for say 5-10 minutes I will get the obvious blue smoke which indicates burning oil, not to mention the putrid smell. If I drive the car it goes away and no smoke under WOT conditions and no smoke at start up. You can do as kenny says and check the exhaust side of the turbo for any obvious signs of leakage. I don't think there is a way to prevent this, post stressful mods. Many on vortex are aware of this problem as well, and although they have installed turbo timers and etc, it doesn't seem to be of much help. I always try to give my car some extra idle time to cool down if I take a hard, short trip.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thorne Posted November 10, 2008 Report Share Posted November 10, 2008 I have a Downpipe on a IHI VF39 with almost 60k and no smoke.... Something is wrong.... Same here but only 20K but it's pushed between 19-22psi all the time. I beat the shit out of this little turbo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TTQ B4U Posted November 10, 2008 Author Report Share Posted November 10, 2008 I do know it's the seals on the turbo as several have torn them down and had them rebuilt. Many are crying fowl that it's a mazda thing and that they somehow altered the KO4 ? I don't know why they would modify the seals or in any way alter it to be less durable, so my skeptisim is that stock the car seems to run 15-18PSI. I'm not exactly sure what PSI they are supposed to run, but many folks stock seem to hold 16-18. I can't say as I don't have a PC or software to run on mine, but I'd be interested in finding out. Overall, I feel since they do respond so well to just a simple intake that with a new downpipe, I bet boost levels are just beyond what the turbo seals can handle. I know the motor can handle a lot as there are several with much larger aftermarket turbos pushing 300-350hp with no issue. I can't find the link to the KO4 web page/data sheet but IIRC, they are not meant to spool above a certain RPM, thus why our computers flatten boost at 5800-7000rpm. Many complain and I know several that remove the limiter, but in the end are likely just killing the turbo via too much heat. I too let her idle and cool down after driving it. I tend not to drive hard when I'm on my way home though. Tim.. If I had to guess, your speculation is correct about the turbo oil seal. My GTI with a KO3s is starting to do the same and it's simply from over-boost and mods. They're such a small turbo that they generate an enormous amounts of heat and they tend to have a short life after upping the boost so much. Keep in mind they were intended on running 8-10psi from factory; while after being chipped I'm spiking 23 and holding 19-20psi. What happens to me personally, is that after idling for say 5-10 minutes I will get the obvious blue smoke which indicates burning oil, not to mention the putrid smell. If I drive the car it goes away and no smoke under WOT conditions and no smoke at start up. You can do as kenny says and check the exhaust side of the turbo for any obvious signs of leakage. I don't think there is a way to prevent this, post stressful mods. Many on vortex are aware of this problem as well, and although they have installed turbo timers and etc, it doesn't seem to be of much help. I always try to give my car some extra idle time to cool down if I take a hard, short trip.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farkas Posted November 10, 2008 Report Share Posted November 10, 2008 I do know it's the seals on the turbo as several have torn them down and had them rebuilt. Many are crying fowl that it's a mazda thing and that they somehow altered the KO4 ? I don't know why they would modify the seals or in any way alter it to be less durable, so my skeptisim is that stock the car seems to run 15-18PSI. I'm not exactly sure what PSI they are supposed to run, but many folks stock seem to hold 16-18. I can't say as I don't have a PC or software to run on mine, but I'd be interested in finding out. Overall, I feel since they do respond so well to just a simple intake that with a new downpipe, I bet boost levels are just beyond what the turbo seals can handle. I know the motor can handle a lot as there are several with much larger aftermarket turbos pushing 300-350hp with no issue. I can't find the link to the KO4 web page/data sheet but IIRC, they are not meant to spool above a certain RPM, thus why our computers flatten boost at 5800-7000rpm. Many complain and I know several that remove the limiter, but in the end are likely just killing the turbo via too much heat. I too let her idle and cool down after driving it. I tend not to drive hard when I'm on my way home though. You're still lucky because KO4 is a great improvement over my KO3s. In fact, I've been looking into the KO4-22 from the new TT as a turbo upgrade for my car. At least they seem to be holding up to the beating much better than any KO3. I've read that even as early as 25,xxx miles people are reporting turbo oil seals on KO3 chipped cars. They're definitely not made to spool, I lose all feeling of power after 5k.. but you gotta love the spool at 2k . Removing the limiter would be such a waste of time since you're not going to make any more power past your peak anyways. As you said, it's just generating unnecessary heat to kill the turbo. Slightly off topic* I'm not sure if I want to go with the KO4-22 and be around 260whp with a REVO retune or go with a BT, GT3071r and make over 300whp at the mercy of my axles/transmission. Still trying to figure which will be more cost efficient before my turbo dies. :doh: : Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CRed05 Posted November 10, 2008 Report Share Posted November 10, 2008 That thing is blowing oil. Ko4's are pretty reliable turbos but there have been a few cases of people blowing them up prematurely, even a few cases of instant fail after installation. Those start becoming inefficient around 22-24psi on a twin turbo setup. Im running 20 on mine now, and its spiking to about 22. No smoke here. So doesnt 16-18 seem a little high for a single ko4? http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n130/sflemon/failcomp.jpg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenny Posted November 10, 2008 Report Share Posted November 10, 2008 Sounds like you have a solid reason to put a man turbo on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skold Posted November 10, 2008 Report Share Posted November 10, 2008 what pcv system is on the car stock? or a crappy catch can? you have to have vac in the crank case or your gonna get bad blow by. my rx7 with a 4in exhaust with nothing in it at all didnt smoke that bad, nor does my evo will a full 3in. and i had an a4 with a catless dp and it didnt do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farkas Posted November 10, 2008 Report Share Posted November 10, 2008 It's definitely not blowby.. Rick, I'll be getting ahold of you sometime in the near future.. PAP parts isnt supplying the weight oil I want anymore so I'm switching over to AMSOIL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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