TTQ B4U Posted December 17, 2008 Report Share Posted December 17, 2008 Where did God come from? KillJoy Faith in himself? God is eternal, there was never a creation of God by another entitity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thorne Posted December 17, 2008 Author Report Share Posted December 17, 2008 Blind Faith is dangerous. Jihadist's have BLIND FAITH right before they blow themselves up for there FAITH! I think its really fucked up to tell someone there faith is wrong and yours is the only way. I accept that I could be wrong but I refuse to believe that any one is correct. I think over all there may or may not be a greater power. I have to assume that in some fashion something excists that started the energy. I think at this point humans are unable to comprehend where we came from and we won't till people get rid of the blind faith and move to rational thinking. I truly and utterly hate young earthers and think they hold mankind back and should be slapped. Again I accept christnanity but I don't accept ludacris ideas Yes. I do.... I have FAITH that my faith is the ONLY ONE..... And yes I have ZERO uncertainty..... I could go into a bunch of theological reasons and things to help support my answer, but I'm not going to....Its not about that...If it was No one would ever win, because Scientifically there is no 100% answer, and that is why it is faith.... I have many friends who are Athiest, Hindu's, Catholics, Christians, and So on....It doesn't bother me.....BUT the way I am choosing to live is what I believe and I have ZERO uncertainty about it...If I die, and I'm wrong...I'll have NO regrets..... Not trying to argue...I don't care about anyone elses views....Those are mine, because you asked...... If someone wants to talk about religion, I'm more than happy too, but I'm not about to DEBATE on a car forum about who is right or wrong....there is no need... No one will "win" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KillJoy Posted December 17, 2008 Report Share Posted December 17, 2008 Faith in himself? You are going on that you have faith in God because everything has to come from somewhere, and be "made". So.... where did God come from? KillJoy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thorne Posted December 17, 2008 Author Report Share Posted December 17, 2008 It does not take dumb luck when you have a extremly large amount of time to work shit out. The plants that were able to survive worked out and those who did not died. Its that simple. Adapt or die. BUT Energy never disappears it changes forms Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TTQ B4U Posted December 17, 2008 Report Share Posted December 17, 2008 You are going on that you have faith in God because everything has to come from somewhere, and be "made". So.... where did God come from? God, is the creator of time, and is outside of time. Since therefore He has no beginning in time, He has always existed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KillJoy Posted December 17, 2008 Report Share Posted December 17, 2008 God, is the creator of time, and is outside of time. Since therefore He has no beginning in time, He has always existed. Not by your logic in the Post that I originally Quoted. :thumbup: KillJoy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TTQ B4U Posted December 17, 2008 Report Share Posted December 17, 2008 It does not take dumb luck when you have a extremly large amount of time to work shit out. The plants that were able to survive worked out and those who did not died. Its that simple. Adapt or die. so as humans destroying nature, we're well on our way of causing extinction of animals and plants and even ourselves and can eventually destroy the whole ecosystem that is the very source of the energy and we'll be left with an orbiting and rotating mass of nothing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sol740 Posted December 17, 2008 Report Share Posted December 17, 2008 That's not what I was asking about. You made a blanket statement regarding faith being related to lower levels of anxiety. I asked you to back that. You went on a rant about proving, disproving "faith" and evolution, and the big bang. None of which I was asking about. Your other questions, are valid, but many without answer. That's the difference, I don't pretend to know for sure. Through testing, hopefully we can find out one day. Most are probably the basic results of probability. Your planet example specifically, taken within the context of our small solar system, its seems amazing. However taken in the context of milions of stars, it just becomes math, as do most "impossible" things. Its actually an extremely simple idea to follow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TTQ B4U Posted December 17, 2008 Report Share Posted December 17, 2008 Not by your logic in the Post that I originally Quoted. KillJoy but not God. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thorne Posted December 17, 2008 Author Report Share Posted December 17, 2008 so as humans destroying nature, we're well on our way of causing extinction of animals and plants and even ourselves and can eventually destroy the whole ecosystem that is the very source of the energy and we'll be left with an orbiting and rotating mass of nothing? Life finds a way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KillJoy Posted December 17, 2008 Report Share Posted December 17, 2008 but not God. Who's God? The Christian God? The one from the King James VERSION of the Bible? Are you one of those people who does not believe the ENTIRE Bible. You pick and choose which pieces and parts you want to believe? If so, do you do the same with the Dictionary? KillJoy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TTQ B4U Posted December 17, 2008 Report Share Posted December 17, 2008 That's not what I was asking about. You made a blanket statement regarding faith being related to lower levels of anxiety. I asked you to back that. You went on a rant about proving, disproving "faith" and evolution, and the big bang. None of which I was asking about. <snip> ...... However taken in the context of milions of stars, it just becomes math, as do most "impossible" things. Its actually an extremely simple idea to follow. Proof in Thorne and just about everyone you know....the man always seems to be getting slammed for being argumentative here, has tons of issues creeping up on him that he shares here and has on a number of occasions talked about trying to get in shape and sleep better....yet admits to just existing. Sounds to me like dumping all that on a person with little or no faith, he's getting about what he should expect. Contrast that with the story behind the The Pursuit of Happiness. The man had faith he could do it...and used that strength to accomplish his goal. Take a small child who is fearful during storms...thunder and lightenting cause extreme anxiety....yet why are they comforted by their parents? They can't stop lightening strikes and loud thunder booms......why? They have faith that their parents will protect them adn that all is okay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sol740 Posted December 17, 2008 Report Share Posted December 17, 2008 You're avoiding the actual answer which is ... "I don't have any proof, I just made that up." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TTQ B4U Posted December 17, 2008 Report Share Posted December 17, 2008 Who's God? The Christian God? The one from the King James VERSION of the Bible? Are you one of those people who does not believe the ENTIRE Bible. You pick and choose which pieces and parts you want to believe? If so, do you do the same with the Dictionary? We all pick and choose and decide what to have faith in. I don't know any extreme Atheists, but I would find it hard to believe that when they suddenly lose a child/loved one they would just grieve and say, damn, he's gone. Deep, deep down inside, I do believe they are wondering if life is just plain fucking over or if there's more to it. To do believe so would be to believe that they are a glass half full person and I don't believe that's generally the case with human beings who have a conscience. If so, that's pretty cold and a darn boring way to look at life. Maybe it is and that's why I don't hang out with any hard-core Atheists. To wholeheartedly not have faith in anything in ones life is seriously shortchanging their own existence IMO. But it is theirs to do as they wish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sol740 Posted December 17, 2008 Report Share Posted December 17, 2008 You're short-changing atheists. I see beauty in the world the same places you do. Family, friends, sentimental places. The way you talk about atheists makes us seem like we're not even human. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TTQ B4U Posted December 17, 2008 Report Share Posted December 17, 2008 You're avoiding the actual answer which is ... "I don't have any proof, I just made that up." what more proof do you want? Go call any number of health psychologists....I'm sure the data is out there. to me it's common sense and pretty obvious. The opposite of faith is: ?? You look it up or define it as you wish. I say the opposite is doubt, and in its stronger form disbelief. If you lose your job and are down on your luck and doubt things will get better, that's going to lead to Anxiety, depression, sleeplessness. Want proof....go ask the millions of unemployed folks who have hit rock bottom. Want to see true faith....go watch the video of that guy in California who lost his wife, mother and kids when that air force jet hit his house. Man has faith in something that's for damn sure and it's not just that some faulty scientific / mechanical part failed and wiped out his family by some big bang dumb luck theory or mathematical calculation. I'll be you the fucking title to my car he's not an Atheist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TTQ B4U Posted December 17, 2008 Report Share Posted December 17, 2008 The way you talk about atheists makes us seem like we're not even human. No...you're only human in scientific terms. There's way more to life than science man. Way more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KillJoy Posted December 17, 2008 Report Share Posted December 17, 2008 To wholeheartedly not have faith in anything in ones life is seriously shortchanging their own existence IMO. But it is theirs to do as they wish. I have faith in my family and friends. If, for some reason, they die, I am not going to fool myslef saying they are in a better place. They died, just like a dog being hit by a car, or cat being put to sleep at the vet. Will they be missed, very much so. Will I be sad and mourn.... absolutely. But I will never fool myself into making me feel better by the "they are in a better place" sentiment. A better place, would be with their friends and family, NOT six foot under. KillJoy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CRed05 Posted December 17, 2008 Report Share Posted December 17, 2008 evidence for claims or faith? that simply does not compute and should be fairly clear to a scientific mind like yours man....come on....how can you prove faith? How about you prove a or disprove a few things? If you're an atheist, you must believe matter is either eternal or created itself. I mean the ideas of atheism are the most part partial to the theory of evolution and since you're an Atheist and have removed the possibility of a Creator, those are your two choices...which is it? ETERNAL or HAD A BEGINNING? Funny how scientists attempt to assign an age to our planet, everything in it and even and the universe as a whole yet who created the beginning of it? The matter that made up that Big Bang Theory...did it just happen out of thin air? That would be a miracle...but you don't believe in those do you? The only other option for atheists who deny the presence of a God is that the universe created itself. WOW! Am I wrong to have faith that a diamond is going to spontaneously appear on my wife's finger? Holy crap! Another miracle! Here, I'll answer it for you...as an atheist you don't believe in my God, the creator of all things...you just believe that somewhere along the line, life spontaneously came into being. It never existed before. It has absolutely no source. It just started itself somehow at some time. POOF! Magic...that's not a religious term is it? To go on....as an aethiest do you believe that the order and design of all things was just happenstance? just some non-intelligence based roll of the dice? All good points Trees use carbon dioxide ~ animals need oxygen...what a match! Dumb luck I'm sure.... That just goes with evolution Our planet is exactly the correct distance from the sun. How lucky we don't burn or freeze....nice job...ahh.....Mr. Luck. If Mars was in the correct location, and had the correct building blocks for life like water, then it too could have developed life on it. and our own body....such a wondrous design. It can even fix itself. Amazing feat of luck. and look! all this randam accidental stuff....it's exactly what scientists show that is needed to fuel our bodies.....amazing!! how can that luck be? I'm playing the lottery tonight man! Evolution It's amazing that if something such as a random unintelligent big bang theory can create all that we have from nothing, shouldn't it be even more remarkable to see something happen when we as intelligent beings actually set the stage for something? BOy, I can't wait to take my engine apart and watch it magically reassemble itself in a million years...or maybe it will become an elephant or a tree...WOW! No, no, I bet it will "evolve" to something that eats all the shit we as humans leave here before we go extinct....that's it. It will also instinctively know what not to do during the next go-round of life too. I know you're exaggerating but it proves nothing. No seriously....I follow your thought of one cell organisms and evolution..I learned all that in school too. My question is though, how did this one cell organism become conscious and aware of itself? What scientifically happend that it would allow this? Does that mean that someday my TV is going to become aware of itself and run away with my DVD Player and breed? I mean that is possible right?.....since it would be its own being and all. Man, I can't wait for Chimps in the Zoo to start talking and evolve into humans. I mean, evolution didn't stop did it? Thats the thing. Evolution didn't happen on a Tuesday. It took thousands of years. Creatures are still evolving as we speak. There is no way that you can disagree with that because unless you have been living under a rock recently you would know that humans are getting taller. That is because we are changing due to our environment....Hmm, evolution. Chimps cant evolve into humans, but they can evolve to better adapt the environment they live in. If it starts snowing today and doesn't stop for the next 10, 20, 2000 years, you better believe that those chimps will either be dead, or they would have grown thicker hair, hair on their feet, maybe even turn white (camouflage). It is happen all over the world where animals/plants/humans physically change because of their environment. How about this....if I came from a one cell organism that magically became aware of itself....who according to science evolved over time through instincitve adaptations, how is it, that I developed my own mortality and formed a conscience? Where did Mortality begin? Did one gorilla in my distant past family that you came from too, just decide that it was wrong to kill or steal? I mean, why do we do good things in life? There's no reason for it is there? Who cares what my neighbor thinks...he's not going to judge me is he? Once again, evolution. The wrong to kill or steal thing...We lived in groups, and we became dependent on the other people in our group. Notice how people only really think its wrong to kill other humans? If we kill other humans in our group, thats one less person who will help me hunt, gather, fight or share something they have, that I want or need. Same goes for stealing, dont piss the other guy off because its not good for the group, and if its not good for the group its not good for me. Goes back to basic survival. I don't know about you, but I do owe you an apology...you do have faith....faith in all this matter, creation, evolution and spontaneous moral being happenings.....I'm am wrong and you are right. In the end, no one knows for sure, its all what we think makes the most sense, what we believe in...faith. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TTQ B4U Posted December 17, 2008 Report Share Posted December 17, 2008 I have faith in my family and friends. If, for some reason, they die, I am not going to fool myslef saying they are in a better place. They died, just like a dog being hit by a car, or cat being put to sleep at the vet. Will they be missed, very much so. Will I be sad and mourn.... absolutely. But I will never fool myself into making me feel better by the "they are in a better place" sentiment. A better place, would be with their friends and family, NOT six foot under. KillJoy If all they are is six foot under and living in the memories of the past and worm food to you then, I'm sorry, I completely disagree and won't ever believe that of my family. Conscience human beings are not just organic matter to me. I do believe that we each have a soul that makes us who we are. To believe as minuscule as we are in the universe that we have "figured it out" and "know all" is pretty arrogant in my book and refusing to believe in anything else is a bit short-sited. Science as we know it has hardly reach the end of it's learning curve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sol740 Posted December 17, 2008 Report Share Posted December 17, 2008 Again, you have provided anecdotal "evidence" to support your baseless claim. We're not arguing the in and outs of hardships, and whether or not faith can alleviate feelings of loss. Again I'll ask you, show me the research (non faithbased) that shows superstitious people lead happier lives than their skeptical counterparts. If all you can provide is anecdotal evidence, and "go ask" whoevers, try again. This is exactly what I've been typing about this whole thread, you want me to believe you, based on nothing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TTQ B4U Posted December 17, 2008 Report Share Posted December 17, 2008 In the end, no one knows for sure, its all what we think makes the most sense, what we believe in...faith. exactly. in my case, as I noted above, I choose not to believe we know it all and have reached the end of the learning curve. to do so and put our compete faith in science and fact as we know it today only is way short sited in my book. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devils Advocate Posted December 17, 2008 Report Share Posted December 17, 2008 So where does that leave out you making the choice between 2 things? What if I have 6 choices in a given situation? Are half of them right, and half of them wrong? Is it 60/40? Does it depend on the weather, or time of day? Do I get to change my mind later and be forgiven for the first one? Do I have to clasp my hands and talk to myself to receive said forgiveness? Why is it necessary to have a mystical robe wearing deity to tell you how to make the right decision? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TTQ B4U Posted December 17, 2008 Report Share Posted December 17, 2008 Again, you have provided anecdotal "evidence" to support your baseless claim. We're not arguing the in and outs of hardships, and whether or not faith can alleviate feelings of loss. Again I'll ask you, show me the research (non faithbased) that shows superstitious people lead happier lives than their skeptical counterparts. If all you can provide is anecdotal evidence, and "go ask" whoevers, try again. This is exactly what I've been typing about this whole thread, you want me to believe you, based on nothing. I can't show you how to measure your happiness vs mine in a tangle measurable format. Sure, I suppose you could be happy believing that life just is scientifically explained only and that at death your gone and nothing more than worm food. I too am happy believing a bit more about things, on top of the science that is still evolving and be happy as well. but at the end of the day, if I ask my innocent 5yr old would it make him more happy to think that if mommy died today that she is simply gone and in the ground as worm food or happier if he thought perhaps her soul and essence of a being that we can't measure by scientific standards is perhaps up in the heavens somewhere looking over him and that perhaps....just perhaps....even if by a long shot miracle, having a little faith in something would lead him to be with her again at some point after he dies....I would bet you he would choose a little faith and hope and live a wee bit happier existence believing in something he won't be able to scientifically prove than if I just told him to say goodbye and remember her through photos and videos because she's just plain dead and not coming home tonight. we've not pushed any religious beliefs on our kids and I know what he would choose....and I know that if someday he changed his beliefs as he has the right to do, he would appreciate and understand that believing what he has up to that point of change is what made him who he is too. I'm sorry, but having faith and looking the longshot-brighter possibilities in the world is by far more appealing to me than just accepting what it is we know up to this point in time....because odds are we aren't the know it all's that some like to believe we are. I'm just not the kind of person to look at a situation and say, well, that's how it is and always has been and what we know to be true so that's it. Way short sighted if you ask me and way less joyful of an existence too. It's too bad so many adults have forgotten or perhaps never did experience the magical wonders and fun times or joys of faith in something when they were a kid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KillJoy Posted December 17, 2008 Report Share Posted December 17, 2008 If all they are is six foot under and living in the memories of the past and worm food to you then, I'm sorry, I completely disagree and won't ever believe that of my family. Once you realize that Death is just a part of Living, it is not so bad. Conscience human beings are not just organic matter to me. I do believe that we each have a soul that makes us who we are. To believe as minuscule as we are in the universe that we have "figured it out" and "know all" is pretty arrogant in my book and refusing to believe in anything else is a bit short-sited. Science as we know it has hardly reach the end of it's learning curve. I never said I had figured it out, or that Science was "right". However, when put into these words, Christianity just does not make sense either: http://www.thesh17.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2007/12/jesuschristianityzombiejew-small.jpg KillJoy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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