An example of why I don't allign myself with christian faith.

[Guest DeeEinstein]

Casey or Rob, can either of you two explain the whole dinosaur situation? If God created the world then how and why did dinosaurs come before Him? Did He not create all animals? I do then believe the evidence of dinosaurs brings about the question of existence before God.

[caseyctsv]

Casey or Rob, can either of you two explain the whole dinosaur situation? If God created the world then how and why did dinosaurs come before Him? Did He not create all animals? I do then believe the evidence of dinosaurs brings about the question of existence before God.

 

That is a great question. In fact, I will bring it up at a bible study group that I am a part of. No questions are off limits.

 

I will say this - if not from a "higher power" what is a more plausible start to life? I hear Big Bang all of the time, and there is a lot of evidence to support it. But what caused the Big Bang?

[sol740]

No I cannot explain dinosaurs beyond what knowledge we have within the fossil record. Paleontology is also not my area of expertise by any means, however it is fair to say that the idea of "New World" creationism should pretty much be a closed book. The world is older than 6000 years.

 

The bible actually does mention man walking with large beasts(I believe in Ezekial), that you could sort of confuse with dinosaurs if you tried. However the Bible talks about a whole lot of mythical creatures such as dragons, and three headed monsters and all kinds of other nonsense, so I take it with a grain of salt. (check David, and of course Revelations)

 

Taking the nature of the Biblical God into question though, would sort of disqualify him from the argument all together. Seeing as how he would of had to have created these creatures just like he did everything else. So why not more mentions ? We get to hear about Lions and Lambs, and goats, and all other sort of animal. Wouldn't these massive beasts get more mention.

 

Also wouldn't the other cultures that existed at the same time, have mentioned these giant beasts in detail in their own historical scripts (the bible isn't the only only ancient text we have).

[supldys]

Maybe dinosaurs weren't in the bible, because they couldn't write. I mean I don't think when God spoke to moses he was like "Here's the 10 commandments,and oh yeah, make sure to tell them about dinosaurs."

[sol740]

So an all powerful god that can rain down fire and sulfur, split the red sea, raise the dead and a whole other host of rediculous, magical claims ... couldn't figure out a way to explain dinosaurs in a way later generations would comprehend.

 

The more likely answer is that the dinosaurs were long, long, long dead and buried before the first inkling of an idea ot the Jewish God existed.

[ImUrOBGYN]

That is why it is "FAITH"....If it was a scientific FACT there would be no Faith at all, and it would be pointless. This debate will never be answered until you are dead, or God chooses to come back and reveal himself. Until then, you just have to either have faith or don't have faith that there is A God, and only 1 true God.....

You sound so sure. Are you honestly telling me you know, without any uncertainty, that your faith is the only one; that it's right and all other cultures, modern and otherwise, their spiritual beliefs and faith is wrong? Think deeply before you answer.

[ImUrOBGYN]

You know, seriously leave it to the leaders of the "church" to cause one to denounce ones' faith. I ask my pastor questions that I consider simple then again I'm always told I have a complex way of thinking so maybe they're not as simple as I like to think... anyhow, he never seems to have the answers. I go to a select group of family members and they just tell me I over analyze things. They too suggest to just pray about it and the answers will come but that's not always the fixer. They say that I just need to accept things as they are, however I'm not one to take things for face value. Explain to me why the grass is green. Explain to me why the sky is blue. Explain to me why God destroyed the City of Sodom and Gomorrah due to it being full of perversion but then allowed one of the men and his two daughters to leave for the mountain and procreate amongst themselves. Doesn't that contradict the whole purpose of destroying the above mentioned city? I asked my pastor this question and not much to my suprise... he had no answer. I asked others as well and I'm again just told I read too much into things. However, if I can't get a fuller understanding to reading the Word then why read something I find at times to be a bit contradicting? This is where my faith then becomes tested because yes, I still do believe... I just at times don't understand why it is that I believe.

 

I attended many different demonitations growing up. Mostly due to my own choice as my family is not the religious type. I ran into the same roadblocks. Either I'd receive no answer, an answer that answered nothing, or straight out aggression or irritation, etc. I'm assuming because they couldn't answer my questions. This, combined with the rampant bigotry, hypocrisy, "better than thou attitude", and an over-abundance of holes in "faith", religion, and the Bible helped to mold my beliefs today.

[ImUrOBGYN]

Doubters in this thread should read the book "The Case for Christ" by Lee Strobel. I have always believed there was a higher power but also had a lot of questions and have been fighting my skepticism for the last couiple of years. I joined a Christian church about a year ago and while I am no where near where I want to be someday it has changed my life for the better. So if there is truly no God what is the harm in living a good Christian life?

First off, I'd like to say I had no choice in creating this triple.

 

There isn't. The problem lies in the fact that many claim to be Christians but do not practice their faith but use it as a weapon or a shield to hide behind, striking out at those who won't believe. The other problem lies in the fact that we're capable as a species of "living a good, Christian life" without religion. Many don't understand that or thinks it's possible. So, I say to those unfortunate people, if you need a god to keep you human, then by all means, pray away.

[Scotty2Hotty]

There is one cool thing that does give Christianity a boost:

Jesus Lived

Jesus died

Jesus affected a hell of a lot of people.

That was straight from the mouth of a Decon that works at the Josephenum (screw my spelling) In actuallity, it's also hard not to denounce the fact that Jesus is a part in every religion through out the world. Time had an article stating how religions from Hinduism, Islam, Judaism, etc.. spoke of Jesus in one form or another.

 

I think one's belief's do stem from personal experiences. Like in Sol's case, a pastor telling him the devil makes him question faith. No wonder so many Christians leave the faith. What kind of bass ackwards BS is that? If faith wasn't questioned, or tested, there would be no point, and blind Faith. From things I personally have done, I know when skill and luck are no longer in play. There were too many situations that I had no real logical answer, even after breaking down things. I guess I kind of have my physical proof and all, but I always had my faith all along. That doesn't mean I don't question stupidity and hypocrisy in the Church. One reason I'm not a "practicing Catholic."

[thorne]

Who made the other people in gensis ? When he left?

[sol740]

LOL, the sad thing is that wasn't even the worst of it. My mother confided in another church-mother regarding my questions. That person than took it upon herself to spread a rumor around the whole church, that I was, and im not even fucking kidding, worshipping Satan.

 

This didn't affect my choice as an adolescent to leave the church, it just felt like salt in the wound.

[sol740]

Who made the other people in gensis ? When he left?

 

 

Theres so many of these inconsistencies its not worth starting a list, it'll go on forever.

[Dubguy85]

You sound so sure. Are you honestly telling me you know, without any uncertainty, that your faith is the only one; that it's right and all other cultures, modern and otherwise, their spiritual beliefs and faith is wrong? Think deeply before you answer.

 

Yes. I do.... I have FAITH that my faith is the ONLY ONE..... And yes I have ZERO uncertainty..... I could go into a bunch of theological reasons and things to help support my answer, but I'm not going to....Its not about that...If it was No one would ever win, because Scientifically there is no 100% answer, and that is why it is faith....

 

I have many friends who are Athiest, Hindu's, Catholics, Christians, and So on....It doesn't bother me.....BUT the way I am choosing to live is what I believe and I have ZERO uncertainty about it...If I die, and I'm wrong...I'll have NO regrets.....

 

Not trying to argue...I don't care about anyone elses views....Those are mine, because you asked......

 

If someone wants to talk about religion, I'm more than happy too, but I'm not about to DEBATE on a car forum about who is right or wrong....there is no need... No one will "win"

[TTQ B4U]

I'm not a huge bible thumper but I will give you my take on it and you need to then look deep down inside and ask yourself what you believe in.

 

Sure, you can survive without faith; but then, what the hell are you living for? basically just the moment you're in. Now I don't care what your achievements, living for the moment is pretty short sighted.

 

Now still, you say you have no faith....but what's the opposite of faith? Anxiety. And from what I've read in your posts, especially with the recent problems, issues, and weights sitting on your shoulders, you're right....you probably don't have faith...but I can tell you have a ton of Anxiety.

 

Perhaps you need to start having a little faith. It will sure help you sleep better. I've seen you post twice about sleep issues in my short time here, so the anti-faith route isn't working. That's clear. Choose to believe it or not. You can't hide anxiety from your own mind. You have to rid yourself of it and pills aren't the answer. Faith is.

 

Some say not having fear of a situation is being brave; I call it being at peace.

 

Just my two cents.

[thorne]

But if you have no faith you also don't believe in hell. What if were all wrong and jews are right? Were going to hell. In that hell Anthony will spit down on us and tell us how much we suck.

[TTQ B4U]

But if you have no faith you also don't believe in hell. What if were all wrong and jews are right? Were going to hell. In that hell Anthony will spit down on us and tell us how much we suck.

 

If you have no faith, you're already in hell. Life probably sucks. Welcome to his world.

[sol740]

If you have no faith, you're already in hell. Life probably sucks. Welcome to his world.

 

 

I couldn't disagree with you more, and am actually, offended one would assume a lack of faith would equate to more anxiety. Would you kindly point me in the direction of the research (scientific, non-faithbased) that supports your claim ? I would argue the contary that atheists lead as satisfactory lives, if not more satisfactory than their superstitious counterparts.

 

Before you answer please stop to think about all the hatred, pain, oppression, and war religion is directly responsible for.

[sol740]

Oh and I do believe in something ... the near mathematical constant of human error. Which is exactly why you need science to play rule-keeper for all of lifes little games.

 

 

Seriously, what if I walked into your house at 3am, and advised you as you awoke that I was only there to look over your things, and make sure they were safe. Would you believe me ? Of course not, that would be stupid, right ? Why would you trust me ? You sure enough don't know me, but what if someone told you that letting me watch your stuff at night, was the only way to get into the "Club of Big-Titted Blondes", but you could only go after you die, but it would last forever. Still stupid right ? Now take any irrational belief and apply it to many, and you have a religion.

 

Now why would you call the homeless guy on the street screaming wildy, about how 'god speaks' to him, "crazy", yet if a churchload do it, its a belief I should respect unquestionably.

[Scotty2Hotty]

[TTQ B4U]

I couldn't disagree with you more, and am actually, offended one would assume a lack of faith would equate to more anxiety. Would you kindly point me in the direction of the research (scientific, non-faithbased) that supports your claim ? I would argue the contary that atheists lead as satisfactory lives, if not more satisfactory than their superstitious counterparts.

 

Before you answer please stop to think about all the hatred, pain, oppression, and war religion is directly responsible for.

 

So you're saying that Atheists have no faith? In anything? Anxiety, bitterness, distress, depression, despair, doubt, fear, worry are all attributed to a lack of faith. You happen to point faith to religion or lack there of, when that's not always the case.

 

IMO, Skeptics who live by the saying that, ''I'll believe it when I see it,'' miss out on much of life because of their lack of faith. Having faith is an enthusiastic and positive visualization that results in joy, serenity, patience and peace of ones mind. You want proof.....donate some time this holiday to Hospice like I do with my family. Evidence of faith is seen reflected in faces of the people we're with every single day. That my friend is all the proof I need.

 

You can call it superstition if you wish, but me.....I call an my expecting wife glowing with anticipation, or my elderly parents holding hands in the hospital, showing they are not afraid of the unknown......faith.

 

Faith is a decision in your mind......... a feeling in the heart that there is ''something more'' to look forward to than ''I'll see it when I believe it.'' But hey...not everyone will have faith....we are all free to choose.

 

My thoughts on war, etc.....most of the war in the middle east is in some cases unjustly directed at followers of Islam, when it fact it is usually caused by the extremists that say they are followers of Islam.

 

The underlying difference between that Christianity and other religions is that most require followers to obey their law. Islam for example, means submission to God. Christianity is unique among religions in that its followers are defined by faith rather than by adherence to a prescribed code. You are free to choose...and they don't kill you for not.

 

You and Thorne can go around with other atheists that can not prove God exists and argue with theists who also cannot prove that god does exist. Me; I'll continue my life with faith and believe that when I die, another life for me begins. You on the other hand can believe in nothing I suppose. But then as an aesthetic that believes in Science, you must believe matter created itself too, so I'm not surprised.

 

Either way, I came into this world a positive person and I'm sure not going to leave it on anything but. Why? Because that just makes sense weather you're a scientist or a priest.

[sol740]

You avoided the part where I asked you to show me evidence of your claims.

 

I don't care if you see the morning star in the eyes of every puppy, that's great, just keep it to yourself and everythings dandy. However if you tell me I better respect and appreciate whatever unfounded, nonsense you(not you specifically) can come up with, that's where a line exists. I'm sorry you feel you need to pretend that magic exists in the world for you to be happy, or even unafraid. You feeling that, doesn't mean I feel that, you shouldn't assume all people need "faith" to be happy.

 

Also all faith is pointless in my opinion. Religious, superstition (really the same thing, religion simply being a gathering of), whatever, the good, is outweighed by the bad.

Edited January 15, 2009 by sol740

[sol740]

I hate you thorne.

[sol740]

Triple ... and we should have a coffee meet and do this face to face sometime.

[TTQ B4U]

You avoided the part where I asked you to show me evidence of your claims.

 

evidence for claims or faith? that simply does not compute and should be fairly clear to a scientific mind like yours man....come on....how can you prove faith?

 

How about you prove a or disprove a few things?

 

If you're an atheist, you must believe matter is either eternal or created itself.

I mean the ideas of atheism are the most part partial to the theory of evolution and since you're an Atheist and have removed the possibility of a Creator, those are your two choices...which is it? ETERNAL or HAD A BEGINNING?

 

Funny how scientists attempt to assign an age to our planet, everything in it and even and the universe as a whole yet who created the beginning of it? The matter that made up that Big Bang Theory...did it just happen out of thin air? That would be a miracle...but you don't believe in those do you?

 

The only other option for atheists who deny the presence of a God is that the universe created itself. WOW! Am I wrong to have faith that a diamond is going to spontaneously appear on my wife's finger? Holy crap! Another miracle!

 

Here, I'll answer it for you...as an atheist you don't believe in my God, the creator of all things...you just believe that somewhere along the line, life spontaneously came into being. It never existed before. It has absolutely no source. It just started itself somehow at some time. POOF! Magic...that's not a religious term is it?

 

To go on....as an aethiest do you believe that the order and design of all things was just happenstance? just some non-intelligence based roll of the dice?

 

Trees use carbon dioxide ~ animals need oxygen...what a match! Dumb luck I'm sure....

 

Our planet is exactly the correct distance from the sun. How lucky we don't burn or freeze....nice job...ahh.....Mr. Luck.

 

and our own body....such a wondrous design. It can even fix itself. Amazing feat of luck. and look! all this randam accidental stuff....it's exactly what scientists show that is needed to fuel our bodies.....amazing!! how can that luck be? I'm playing the lottery tonight man!

 

It's amazing that if something such as a random unintelligent big bang theory can create all that we have from nothing, shouldn't it be even more remarkable to see something happen when we as intelligent beings actually set the stage for something? BOy, I can't wait to take my engine apart and watch it magically reassemble itself in a million years...or maybe it will become an elephant or a tree...WOW! No, no, I bet it will "evolve" to something that eats all the shit we as humans leave here before we go extinct....that's it. It will also instinctively know what not to do during the next go-round of life too.

 

No seriously....I follow your thought of one cell organisms and evolution..I learned all that in school too. My question is though, how did this one cell organism become conscious and aware of itself? What scientifically happend that it would allow this? Does that mean that someday my TV is going to become aware of itself and run away with my DVD Player and breed? I mean that is possible right?.....since it would be its own being and all. Man, I can't wait for Chimps in the Zoo to start talking and evolve into humans. I mean, evolution didn't stop did it?

 

How about this....if I came from a one cell organism that magically became aware of itself....who according to science evolved over time through instincitve adaptations, how is it, that I developed my own mortality and formed a conscience? Where did Mortality begin?

 

Did one gorilla in my distant past family that you came from too, just decide that it was wrong to kill or steal? I mean, why do we do good things in life? There's no reason for it is there? Who cares what my neighbor thinks...he's not going to judge me is he?

 

I don't know about you, but I do owe you an apology...you do have faith....faith in all this matter, creation, evolution and spontaneous moral being happenings.....I'm am wrong and you are right.

[KillJoy]

Where did God come from?

 

 

KillJoy

 

 

evidence for claims or faith? that simply does not compute and should be fairly clear to a scientific mind like yours man....come on....how can you prove faith?

 

How about you prove a or disprove a few things?

 

If you're an atheist, you must believe matter is either eternal or created itself.

I mean the ideas of atheism are the most part partial to the theory of evolution and since you're an Atheist and have removed the possibility of a Creator, those are your two choices...which is it? ETERNAL or HAD A BEGINNING?

 

Funny how scientists attempt to assign an age to our planet, everything in it and even and the universe as a whole yet who created the beginning of it? The matter that made up that Big Bang Theory...did it just happen out of thin air? That would be a miracle...but you don't believe in those do you?

 

The only other option for atheists who deny the presence of a God is that the universe created itself. WOW! Am I wrong to have faith that a diamond is going to spontaneously appear on my wife's finger? Holy crap! Another miracle!

 

Here, I'll answer it for you...as an atheist you don't believe in my God, the creator of all things...you just believe that somewhere along the line, life spontaneously came into being. It never existed before. It has absolutely no source. It just started itself somehow at some time. POOF! Magic...that's not a religious term is it?

 

To go on....as an aethiest do you believe that the order and design of all things was just happenstance? just some non-intelligence based roll of the dice?

 

Trees use carbon dioxide ~ animals need oxygen...what a match! Dumb luck I'm sure....

 

Our planet is exactly the correct distance from the sun. How lucky we don't burn or freeze....nice job...ahh.....Mr. Luck.

 

and our own body....such a wondrous design. It can even fix itself. Amazing feat of luck. and look! all this randam accidental stuff....it's exactly what scientists show that is needed to fuel our bodies.....amazing!! how can that luck be? I'm playing the lottery tonight man!

 

It's amazing that if something such as a random unintelligent big bang theory can create all that we have from nothing, shouldn't it be even more remarkable to see something happen when we as intelligent beings actually set the stage for something? BOy, I can't wait to take my engine apart and watch it magically reassemble itself in a million years...or maybe it will become an elephant or a tree...WOW! No, no, I bet it will "evolve" to something that eats all the shit we as humans leave here before we go extinct....that's it. It will also instinctively know what not to do during the next go-round of life too.

 

No seriously....I follow your thought of one cell organisms and evolution..I learned all that in school too. My question is though, how did this one cell organism become conscious and aware of itself? What scientifically happend that it would allow this? Does that mean that someday my TV is going to become aware of itself and run away with my DVD Player and breed? I mean that is possible right?.....since it would be its own being and all.

 

How about this....if I came from a one cell organism that magically became aware of itself....who according to science evolved over time through instincitve adaptations, how is it, that I developed my own mortality and formed a conscience? Where did Mortality begin?

 

Did one gorilla in my distant past family that you came from too, just decide that it was wrong to kill or steal? I mean, why do we do good things in life? There's no reason for it is there? Who cares what my neighbor thinks...he's not going to judge me is he?

 

I don't know about you, but I do owe you an apology...you do have faith....faith in all this matter, creation, evolution and spontaneous moral being happenings.....I'm am wrong and you are right.