V8 Beast Posted January 23, 2009 Report Share Posted January 23, 2009 Ben was being sarcarstic.Thats why he's not in here arguing with the rest of you... duh BRB, I'm about to lobby for stupidity being a bannable offense. It's time for CHANGE Columbus Racing.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheHaze Posted January 23, 2009 Report Share Posted January 23, 2009 What are you hearing that's conflicted ? Please use an example so I may retort in context ? Also please reread my first post about Fox News and tell me that's not some of the stupidest shit you've ever read. I was noticing a common opinion. It seems that there was support for closing Gitmo on the basis that we, as citizens, don't know for sure what crimes the prisoners there have committed, so either condemn them or release them. This is not nearly as simple a procedure as many of you make it out to be. Maybe this discussion should be about torture in general. If you have a political ideology you typically support, you will generally tend to look for things in the media that you agree with. Reversely, you will tend to notice things you think you don't agree with. This is why liberals hate Fox News and Conservatives hate CNN, MSNBC, NBC and CBS. Again, I fully support pushing forth with investigations to actually do something about possible terrorists there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheHaze Posted January 23, 2009 Report Share Posted January 23, 2009 Where have I said that I like the idea of a possible release? I obviously would NOT be happy that someone with the intent to harm me based on the country I live in was free and surrounded by people of like mind. My point was that it's going to be pretty obvious that a prisoner freshly released is going to harbor resentment towards the country that imprisoned them, which would be compounded by poor treatment/lack of a reason for detainment. Does this fact make it Okay to keep people in jail without cause? No. I'm simply refusing to let what I believe in (innocent until proven guilty, torture is bad, I wouldn't want to be in that person's shoes, etc) be destroyed by fear-mongering.I would not want to be tortured, nor would I want to torture somebody, yet I'd prefer not be killed by a terrorist as well. I'm glad something is being done about Gitmo, as it's been a burden for too long. However, I think some of the reasoning in this thread is moot. And how can you say one killer is more dangerous than another? Especially if they are all in jail together... behind bars... under heavy security? Hmm, methinks a terrorist vowing to destroy the entire population of the Unites States is quite a different story compared to a gang-turf murder, drug-related murder or other violent crime. And don't try to twist this because I hate all violence but something like terrorism needs a much larger defense then a state prison. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qtr_pndr Posted January 23, 2009 Report Share Posted January 23, 2009 I'll just wait to see what happens Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sol740 Posted January 24, 2009 Report Share Posted January 24, 2009 I was noticing a common opinion. It seems that there was support for closing Gitmo on the basis that we, as citizens, don't know for sure what crimes the prisoners there have committed, so either condemn them or release them. This is not nearly as simple a procedure as many of you make it out to be. Maybe this discussion should be about torture in general. Where the "conflict" again ? If you have a political ideology you typically support, you will generally tend to look for things in the media that you agree with. Reversely, you will tend to notice things you think you don't agree with. This is why liberals hate Fox News and Conservatives hate CNN, MSNBC, NBC and CBS. Did you even read the link I posted ? I agree that all sides are biased, its the degree of bias that changes how a story is reported. For instance ... CNN reports that (insert liberal hippie company) may have inadvertently purchased supplies from a company abroad, known to have done business with terrorists, CNN spins the story to make known that this may have been done completely by accident, and points out that other companies may have also done so unknowingly. Fox news reports on the same story, but their spin points out that (insert liberal hippie company) "could be" responsible for American deaths, and that the company may have financed an attack on American soil. Than they have "Educated Guest#3" come onto the air, and state that evidence is being mounted against them as we speak, so you can sure that later on they "may" be tried on charges of treason, "if" enough evidence is found. Independent news will say "Company does business with X". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
street pilot Posted January 24, 2009 Report Share Posted January 24, 2009 Everyone who posted in this thread (and everyone else) should watch the movie "Rendition." Makes you think, and its a damn good film. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty2Hotty Posted January 24, 2009 Report Share Posted January 24, 2009 Bet none of you have met anyone directly connected with Al-Qaeda huh? You peace loving, human rights sympathizers would change your tone having been in direct combat with these people. How about we start with one thing, these people are NOT I will repeat again, NOT American citizens, meaning they should not be treated as such. Those that ended up in Gitmo were not innocent farmers that happened to be at the wrong place and wrong time. Like cops in the US, soldiers and marines had to have evidence before detaining and bringing people in. As shocked as you bleeding hearts are, it's the truth. Before you start spouting off what MSNBC and their treasonist allies tell you, we had to have something on them. If that was a cache of weapons, explosives, bomb residue on their hands and clothes etc.... These people were not innocent and have every reason to be in there. If we were as barbaric as you think, we would've executed them on the spot. But since we have some sort of soul and compassion, we went about things the right way. You're dumb and blind to not think these people will filter back into what they originally did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sol740 Posted January 24, 2009 Report Share Posted January 24, 2009 How about we start with one thing, these people are NOT I will repeat again, NOT American citizens, meaning they should not be treated as such. How about we show the international community that we're better than the bastards we're trying to stop, and abide by international law. Your previous statement about the GC not applying to these individuals is a loophole, and you know it. Bet none of you have met anyone directly connected with Al-Qaeda huh? You peace loving, human rights sympathizers You say this like its a negative. Those that ended up in Gitmo were not innocent farmers that happened to be at the wrong place and wrong time. Like cops in the US, soldiers and marines had to have evidence before detaining and bringing people in. So using that same evidence in court shouldn't be an issue ? If we were as barbaric as you think, we would've executed them on the spot. But since we have some sort of soul and compassion, we went about things the right way. You mean by, for instance, torturing the sons of bitches, even if research shows this to be an unreliable technique of info gathering. Well, correct info anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty2Hotty Posted January 24, 2009 Report Share Posted January 24, 2009 My last piece of writing genious was times out Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sol740 Posted January 24, 2009 Report Share Posted January 24, 2009 My last piece of writing genious was times out LOL ... that sucks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty2Hotty Posted January 24, 2009 Report Share Posted January 24, 2009 How about we show the international community that we're better than the bastards we're trying to stop, and abide by international law. Your previous statement about the GC not applying to these individuals is a loophole, and you know it. That doesn't mean we should wipe their ass either. Granted, we could define things like this, but it's pretty tough. Again, these individuals were lucky we didn't play executioner role like many armies before us did. So using that same evidence in court shouldn't be an issue ? War crimes court? Ohio Supreme court? What so it can be like our amazing judicial system and let them go You mean by, for instance, torturing the sons of bitches, even if research shows this to be an unreliable technique of info gathering. Well, correct info anyway. The OGA's did that, not us ground pounders. You forget what other countries will do to OUR people. Granted, I if one tortured individual means I had better intel on the ground, by all means, rip his finger nails out with a spoon. This isn't pre-school where the teacher makes everyone get along, it's fuck or be fucked in this new game. No more are we fighting the wars of our grandfather's, their father's and so forth. New times = new measures. Are WE as America "better" than this? Of fucking course, but again I will say, for too long we have been politically bounded by rules upon rules, upon more bullshit rules. Their attack on our innocent people, rang the bell for a bare knuckle fight. Yes, I know other countries blah blah blah. Why do you think that people come here to America? To leave shit like that behind because we are a FREE nation. We have the utmost duty to defend it to the death no matter what. I would hope you as an American would see that as well. Shit like 9/11 should never have happened, but it did, and we still need to pursue those same folks. I don't care to hear anyone's take on Afghanistan or Iraq, but FYI we're keeping all the bad men busy over there so they don't end up trying to get here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty2Hotty Posted January 24, 2009 Report Share Posted January 24, 2009 LOL ... that sucks. It would be so much easier over beer mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty2Hotty Posted January 24, 2009 Report Share Posted January 24, 2009 OGA's = Other Gov't Agencies Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tractor Posted January 24, 2009 Report Share Posted January 24, 2009 I don't see the problem. They should be held, killed, tortured whatever for how ever long we feel like doing it. They aren't americans and SHOULD NOT be treated as such and given any rights. Nearly all of them were catured in the land of our enemies either directly attempting to harm US troops or associating with people who were. I don't know them and don't give a crap what happens to them as long as they aren't set free. I love the remark by the 18yr old that some of them are "under 18." LOL ask scotty2hotty I bet kids younger than that attempted and possibly succeeded in killing/injuring people he knows. These people are completely nuts and have no problem using a child/baby to lure us in for the kill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tractor Posted January 24, 2009 Report Share Posted January 24, 2009 The OGA's did that, not us ground pounders. You forget what other countries will do to OUR people. Granted, I if one tortured individual means I had better intel on the ground, by all means, rip his finger nails out with a spoon. This isn't pre-school where the teacher makes everyone get along, it's fuck or be fucked in this new game. No more are we fighting the wars of our grandfather's, their father's and so forth. New times = new measures. Are WE as America "better" than this? Of fucking course, but again I will say, for too long we have been politically bounded by rules upon rules, upon more bullshit rules. Their attack on our innocent people, rang the bell for a bare knuckle fight. Yes, I know other countries blah blah blah. Why do you think that people come here to America? To leave shit like that behind because we are a FREE nation. We have the utmost duty to defend it to the death no matter what. I would hope you as an American would see that as well. Shit like 9/11 should never have happened, but it did, and we still need to pursue those same folks. I don't care to hear anyone's take on Afghanistan or Iraq, but FYI we're keeping all the bad men busy over there so they don't end up trying to get here. You rock. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
87GT Posted January 24, 2009 Report Share Posted January 24, 2009 Can we go ahead and jail Americans that we know are involved, or associate with groups that have and/or want to harm other Americans? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sol740 Posted January 24, 2009 Report Share Posted January 24, 2009 That doesn't mean we should wipe their ass either. Granted, we could define things like this, but it's pretty tough. Again, these individuals were lucky we didn't play executioner role like many armies before us did. We're the country thats suppose to be the example. Its that simple. The OGA's did that, not us ground pounders. No the United States did it. Doesn't matter which branch. As far as better info, its been shown that tortured individuals will just say what someone wants to hear, just to get the torture to stop. So you could be getting bad info, that puts you in even more danger, or just wastes a bunch of valuable resources, for all anyone knows, and at what cost ? You're right, 9/11 shouldn't have happened, but it did ... because of our shitty foreign policy. I should very much like to see that changed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TTQ B4U Posted January 24, 2009 Report Share Posted January 24, 2009 (edited) If they had the evidence they should have tried him instead of holding him indefinitely. No evidence no crime. Last time I checked that's how the us legal system works. sure....another youth just over in his homeland to see family and have some innocent fun. and we sure as hell don't need our joke of a legal system that sympathizes more with the criminal than the victims wasting resources on them only to slap them on the wrist and let them go. I'm sorry, but if anyone believes these rats in GITMO are harmless then you're fooling yourself. That's right up there with believing a sexual offender can be reformed. <shake my head in disgust> Edited January 24, 2009 by TTQ B4U Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TTQ B4U Posted January 24, 2009 Report Share Posted January 24, 2009 So basically, you condemn a bunch of people based on conjecture,. yes. I don't believe we need to put these "people" more like animals....through a civilized trial. the two don't mix. end them and be done with it. we're better off trusting gut instinct and being safe than worrying about them as if they were our own. nothing western applies to them and they want it that way, so let's give them what they ask for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TTQ B4U Posted January 24, 2009 Report Share Posted January 24, 2009 And YOU DON'T KNOW. None of us has ANY idea who these people really are, because that information has been hidden from the American public. Restricted, Classified, whatever the fuck you wanna call it. If they truly are ALL guilty, wouldn't it be smart for the government to release their information to gather support for the war? Shouldn't we be putting them on trial and passing sentence? I don't need to "know." I'm going with my gut on these cases that have been brought to light. Again, there's not a chance in hell you'll convince me that a 15yr Canadian Citizen who happens to be from the middle east is just back in his homeland skipping rocks and is then accidentally accused of attacking our troops. If it smells like shit....it's very likely shit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sol740 Posted January 24, 2009 Report Share Posted January 24, 2009 Quadruple BLOCK ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty2Hotty Posted January 24, 2009 Report Share Posted January 24, 2009 You're right, 9/11 shouldn't have happened, but it did ... because of our shitty foreign policy. I should very much like to see that changed. I will agree that our foreign policies since the late 70's has been a rollercoaster effect non-the less. It's not just that though, as easy as it seems. Watch the Nat. Geographic special on Holy War I think it's called. It opens the eyes to the reasons we are hated so, and it's not just foreign policy. It's our global economic impact, our ways of life, the freedoms we have, and everything related to America in general. They truly hate you for just being American and believe us to be the utmost evil, to include all of our people and our land. It's hard to once again be a "role model" for being fair and just, when our enemy doesn't do this. We should've stopped being fair a long time ago, for these people still wouldn't stop even if we were. Granted you recieve one side of the torture story, versus the other side. Again, these people are not someone that was in the wrong place at the wrong time. If you talked to anyone in a state pen, of course they're innocent right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty2Hotty Posted January 24, 2009 Report Share Posted January 24, 2009 And YOU DON'T KNOW. None of us has ANY idea who these people really are, because that information has been hidden from the American public. Restricted, Classified, whatever the fuck you wanna call it. If they truly are ALL guilty, wouldn't it be smart for the government to release their information to gather support for the war? Shouldn't we be putting them on trial and passing sentence? It's need to know info, and you being a civilian don't need to know. There's been enough intel leaks, and info spread umong the various news organizations that have done nothing but cause harm, and possible fatal harm. I would agree, that it would be smart to release some info, but in the same right, there can be very good reasons not to. The media should've been banned a long time ago from stepping foot overseas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty2Hotty Posted January 24, 2009 Report Share Posted January 24, 2009 Why Mr.Obama even agreed that "We are in a war on Terror." I'm watching Fox News Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trouble Maker Posted January 24, 2009 Report Share Posted January 24, 2009 (edited) Of course they're going to want to fight america, they were imprisoned and possibly tortured here for years. Said the exact thing on another board followed by "You reap what you sow." Like Ken said, that was 'exactly' what happened to lead up to 9/11. AND it will happen again by our own doing if we don't change the way we live in this world. I've been saying it for years but I'll put money on it coming from Venezuela. 5-15 years. Posting it now for 'proof'. We are fucking around down there too much. Edited January 24, 2009 by Trouble Maker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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