Computer? i3 vs i5 integrated video (clarksdale?) for an HTPC?

[Trouble Maker]

So I'm going to put my HTPC together soon. I'm still learning all of this and haven't been into PC stuff in a while. Please correct me if I make any incorrect assumptions or have bad base knowledge.

 

I'm would like to do mini-itx to keep the total size down. I would rather not do Micro ATX because it seems 'big'. Here's the rub, I need one pci-e slot for a tuner. Since the mini-itx only has 1 slot, that will leave me with 0 left over in case the video is not up to snuff. So I 'have' to do integrated video unless I go Micro ATX. If integrated video works fine, no need for a video card and a Micro ATX would be wasted space (about three times as big as a mini-itx case).

 

The tuner I will be getting can do 4 HD streams. Is this just way to much to ask from integrated video (please don't speak unless you have some knowledge of the integrated video in the i3 or i5)?

 

Will the i5 have more video processing power (better integrated GPU) or just more power for other processes? I'm a little confused from this chart. Says same GPU, but I'm wanting to think the i5 should also do video better? http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1172451 Just wondering if the i5 is worth the extra money.

 

A question about mini-itx. One of the boards I'm looking at has 6 sata ports. Obviously any mini-itx will usually only take 3 devices from a space standpoint (usually a disc drive and 2 HDD's from what I've seen). I saw some back punch out pannels and cables that looked like they were for external HDD's using the rest of the SATA ports. So is there some sort of external case that can power the HDD's and you just connect them the the MB with those extra SATA ports? Just wondering for down the road if I fill up HDD space since HD video takes up a lot of space very quickly.

[unfunnyryan]

Neither. I have a HTPC that I use with a 28" MONITOR (yeah) at school as my primary TV.

 

The integrated video is junk for playback right now. The driver support just isn't anywhere near complete. Do yourself a favor and avoid it, and go with dedicated graphics. The Nvidia 9300/9400 are perfect for HD playback, and well supported under all systems.

 

Question: What OS and DVR software are you using? What tuner?

 

I also hope you are planning on getting some quality hard drives. I use WD Caviar Black drives in my system, the 32mb cache really helps with recording. My system also isn't that powerful (you don't need a i5 if you have dedicated video doing the work!) I just have a Intel Atom 330@1.6ghz, 2GB Ram, Nvidia ION graphics, and 2x1TB WD Caviar Blacks.

 

Here is the board I am using.

 

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813500036

 

It has everything you are looking besides a more powerful processor, and is actually smaller than micro atx. It has integrated video equivalent to a 9400, which is capable of playing back mkv bluray rips with no trouble. True, it only has 3 sata ports, but there is a 2TB caviar black drive (its pricey, but you are saving with this board over a i3/i5). If you need a bit of a power boost and your case cooling is good, you can overclock it to 2ghz in 1 simple step in the bios. My ventilation is good enough that I don't even use the included fan, system doesn't put out much heat at all.

 

Let me know if you have any other trouble. Worst case scenario you could maybe return the board and try something else.

 

Edit: Its understandable if you are against using a Atom, but there is also this board by Zotac that you can drop a core2duo into.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813500035

[Trouble Maker]

I will be using Win 7 as it supports what I want to do (non-OEM cable card support). I will be using the Ceton tuner. http://www.cetoncorp.com/ Your welcome.

 

DVR, I will probably use built into windows for now. Might look at something else later but I want this to be as stable and user friendly as possible. Once I get this up and running I will get rid of the HD-DVD player and Cable company DVR. Also the g/f will be using this so it needs to be as simple as possible to use and as stable as possible. She knows how to use PCs very well, but I don't want this to be any more complicated than using a regular DVR, at least not any more than it has to be.

 

I want to do bit-streaming audio so I will probably go with the new 5600/5700/5800 card if I do a separate. I know LPCM isn't that much 'worse', I just want it mostly. The clarksdales (i3, i5) support bit-streaming so that's why I was looking into those.

 

We've got a Wii for downstairs now so I will be putting the 360 upstairs as an extender so we can have our the same DVR on the bedroom TV.

 

I'm looking to decrease junk downstairs and (greatly) increase the capabilities at the same time.

[unfunnyryan]

Thats a DAMN fine tuner. I've read some about it, and shit you are going to be happy. I would say with that, you probably would be right with going for a i3/i5, because that thing has some high requirements to it.

 

I use WMC on Win7 as well, and I gotta say it is rock solid. There is a few codec packs that you must have that I will post later when I remember which I installed. Depending on how you want your system to sleep, there's some other settings you will want to pay attention to. I guess if you are using a TV and not a monitor for a display, you probably won't have the same problems I do.

 

The only thing wrong with my build is the drivers for the tuners aren't that stable (damn you ATI 650s)

 

As for extenders, they are the shit. A few people in my dorm have their xboxes set up as extenders and its just amazing. I don't know if you've seen it done before, but it literally just brings up the WMC interface on the xbox, and lets you do just about everything the HTPC can do.

[thorne]

I'm curious about the I3 and I5 myself. They sound like ai nteresting chip/

[Trouble Maker]

Thats a DAMN fine tuner. I've read some about it, and shit you are going to be happy. I would say with that, you probably would be right with going for a i3/i5, because that thing has some high requirements to it.

 

So are you still sticking to the 'iGPU's are shit' statement from earlier and saying I should do that plus a video card or do you think the iGPU in the i3/5 would be enough? If I do a video card, why do the i3 or i5 and 'waste' the iGPU? Going down that route, what would other chips could I use that would be equilivant without the extra cost of the iGPU

 

From what I was saying earlier, this is the problem. I want to go mini-ITX for the size (and partially cost). But if I do and am not happy with the video i can't add a video card. So I would have a to get a new (more expensive) mobo and new (more expensive) case and the extra cost of the video card. The extra cost from the get go is not a big problem, but having to rebuy items, and sell the old ones at a loss would suck. I also don't want to assume from the get-go I'm going to need an external video card and the associated extra cost and footprint that would mean

 

I use WMC on Win7 as well, and I gotta say it is rock solid. There is a few codec packs that you must have that I will post later when I remember which I installed. Depending on how you want your system to sleep, there's some other settings you will want to pay attention to. I guess if you are using a TV and not a monitor for a display, you probably won't have the same problems I do.

...

As for extenders, they are the shit. A few people in my dorm have their xboxes set up as extenders and its just amazing. I don't know if you've seen it done before, but it literally just brings up the WMC interface on the xbox, and lets you do just about everything the HTPC can do.

 

Good to hear my thinking about what it can do is correct. How's the DVD user interface in WMC with Win 7? My image is the pictures of the DVD's/Blurays you can click on and play that are ripped to your HDD. I was at a friends and saw this too (he was using something other than WMC). I know this is possible with add-on's or other front ends. Is this built into WMC with Win 7?

[unfunnyryan]

So are you still sticking to the 'iGPU's are shit' statement from earlier and saying I should do that plus a video card or do you think the iGPU in the i3/5 would be enough? If I do a video card, why do the i3 or i5 and 'waste' the iGPU? Going down that route, what would other chips could I use that would be equilivant without the extra cost of the iGPU

 

I did a little bit of research (I've been posting by phone, just got back to computer) and it seems like what I've found on the iGPU drivers were more about game performance, not really playback. It seems like it has video acceleration for some video formats, and it isn't all that bad.

 

From what I was saying earlier, this is the problem. I want to go mini-ITX for the size (and partially cost). But if I do and am not happy with the video i can't add a video card. So I would have a to get a new (more expensive) mobo and new (more expensive) case and the extra cost of the video card. The extra cost from the get go is not a big problem, but having to rebuy items, and sell the old ones at a loss would suck. I also don't want to assume from the get-go I'm going to need an external video card and the associated extra cost and footprint that would mean

 

Thats the problem with mini-ITX. You have very, very limited future path. I say really, from a economic standpoint, go full or midsized. You have to get a decent sized case anyways to fit that bigass tuner.

 

I think you should stick with ATX. It doesn't have to be a fullsized board, but you just get more features and performance out of larger motherboards. Not to mention other such problems such as heat, when you have so many things crammed together.

 

Also, it wouldn't hurt to just go with LGA775. There is still some very fast core 2 processors that you can find really cheap at the right places. You don't need a super great video card either, unless you are looking for HDMI with sound output. A lot of on board sound cards have optical outputs, which is reasonably good. Might be able to save some $$ this route, even if you have to buy a video card.

 

Good to hear my thinking about what it can do is correct. How's the DVD user interface in WMC with Win 7? My image is the pictures of the DVD's/Blurays you can click on and play that are ripped to your HDD. I was at a friends and saw this too (he was using something other than WMC). I know this is possible with add-on's or other front ends. Is this built into WMC with Win 7?

 

I haven't actually tried playing back from a DVD yet. I do believe there is a way to copy or rip DVDs to the hard drive, and it will put them into the movie library, but I'm not 100%. It WILL however display them very nicely (more so than the video section) and it will do this with movies recorded from your tuner as well. You also have the ability to read about the movie, see what its rated, etc.

 

Something else to mention is the movies guide, which shows you what movies are on now and whats coming up. Really saves time if you want to record or watch a bunch of movies.

 

There is a lot of cool plugins, such as Lifesaver, which skips commercials automatically on recorded TV (it takes a bit of configuring to get it right)

 

Overall, the interface for WMC and navigating around it is very easy and intuitive. It behaves like you think it should, and I've never had it just crash on me. The TV guide just works, plain and simple. Recording is a snap, as is setting up advanced recording options.

 

Have you started looking at remotes yet? I use both a remote I got with my tuners (which only half the buttons work in WMC, but its good enough) as well as a apple wireless keyboard I nagged cheap.

[Trouble Maker]

I did a little bit of research (I've been posting by phone, just got back to computer) and it seems like what I've found on the iGPU drivers were more about game performance, not really playback. It seems like it has video acceleration for some video formats, and it isn't all that bad.

 

Thats the problem with mini-ITX. You have very, very limited future path. I say really, from a economic standpoint, go full or midsized. You have to get a decent sized case anyways to fit that bigass tuner.

 

Sounds good. I'm still confused if i5 will be better than i3.

 

I have no idea about the size. That's something I'm struggling with. Ceton is calling it a 'low profile' card. Not sure what a case the size of a mini-itx would fit. They say it will be 7.85"x2.535" It doesn't look much taller than a cable card (same form factor as a PC card AFAIK). http://cetoncorp.com/support_faq.php#faq_139

 

Also, it wouldn't hurt to just go with LGA775. There is still some very fast core 2 processors that you can find really cheap at the right places. You don't need a super great video card either, unless you are looking for HDMI with sound output. A lot of on board sound cards have optical outputs, which is reasonably good. Might be able to save some $$ this route, even if you have to buy a video card.

 

I want to do audio over HDMI, preferable bit-streaming. For bit-stremaing I think I need either a clarksdale processor or 56/57/5800 video card.

 

I haven't actually tried playing back from a DVD yet. I do believe there is a way to copy or rip DVDs to the hard drive, and it will put them into the movie library, but I'm not 100%. It WILL however display them very nicely (more so than the video section) and it will do this with movies recorded from your tuner as well. You also have the ability to read about the movie, see what its rated, etc.

 

Something else to mention is the movies guide, which shows you what movies are on now and whats coming up. Really saves time if you want to record or watch a bunch of movies.

 

There is a lot of cool plugins, such as Lifesaver, which skips commercials automatically on recorded TV (it takes a bit of configuring to get it right)

 

Overall, the interface for WMC and navigating around it is very easy and intuitive. It behaves like you think it should, and I've never had it just crash on me. The TV guide just works, plain and simple. Recording is a snap, as is setting up advanced recording options.

 

I'm not too worried about how to rip them. I will be doing that and from a techinical standpoint I can figure whatever is needed out. Something 'automated' would be nice, but not necessary. I'm more worried about UI from a playback stand point. It's sounds like WMC Win 7 does exactly what I want it to. Those plugins sound really cool (especially the commercial skip), I'll definitely look into some key plugins like that.

 

Have you started looking at remotes yet? I use both a remote I got with my tuners (which only half the buttons work in WMC, but its good enough) as well as a apple wireless keyboard I nagged cheap.

 

I've not looked into remotes at all yet. I'll probably just do a WMC remote w/IR to get the codes and the IR, then do some universal learning remote. Seems that WMC spefici remotes that are any good are expensive, at least that's the image I get. Seems like it's cheaper to get a cheapo WMC remote to get the codes and IR, then get a nice non-WMC specific universal remote. I already have a USB dongle based cordless (Logitech) keyboard and mouse. I'll probably use that for now.

 

I'll be hoking this up to my 40" Samsung LCD in the living room. I also have an Onkyo TX-SR606 so I want to be able to hook everything up with via HDMI for ease of connection and I want to bit stream to get the best audio and take full capability of my system. Also my understanding is that LPCM can do 192kHz/24bit, but all of the current (software on PC) dvd players will down sample to 48khz/16bit (same as dvd, optical route) due to it not being a secure path, then up sample to 192/24 to stream over LCPM. I don't want to get DVD quality sound out of the lossless codecs used in Bluray.

[paktinat]

I have a gx280 with a ati x600 and a HVR-1600 tuner.

old, old and old, but it runs Win7 fine and the play back is rock solid.

 

also the official MCE remote is worth the money. I was skeptical at first but it works great.

[JaSSon]

Here's a good article about the clarksdale CPUs. The Charts at the bottom should be the most useful to you. The core i5 661 sounds like your man! It has the fastest gpu out of all the i3's and i5's.

http://www.engadget.com/2010/01/07/intel-core-presser-32nm-core-i3-core-i5-and-core-i7-cpus/

 

I had read an article where they looked in depth at the GPUs on the new intels, but now I can't find it. But, basically they said this: horribly under powered for gaming, works well for HD video.

Edited January 28, 2010 by JaSSon

[1fast5gp]

Ever consider getting a laptop and a USB HD Tuner?

I have a core i5 430m Arrandale processor on my laptop. It has the integrated Intel Graphics Media Accelerator HD (GMA HD) on the processor it self. The difference I know between the Core i3m and core i5m processors is one has turbo boost and one doesn't. The GMA HD processor is the same. But they are able to run 1080p without a problem. My laptop has an blueray player and HDMI, I hook it up to my 42in LCD tv and it puts out 1080p.

 

The same is true between the core i5 600 series and the core I3 500 series processors.

 

The core i5 650 is faster then the core i3 530.

The core i5 650 has turbo boost, the core i3 530 does not

Both are dual core processors with HT. The build in Graphics processor is the same on both chips.

[Trouble Maker]

Here's a good article about the clarksdale CPUs. The Charts at the bottom should be the most useful to you. The core i5 661 sounds like your man! It has the fastest gpu out of all the i3's and i7's.

http://www.engadget.com/2010/01/07/intel-core-presser-32nm-core-i3-core-i5-and-core-i7-cpus/

 

I had read an article where they looked in depth at the GPUs on the new intels, but now I can't find it. But, basically they said this: horribly under powered for gaming, works well for HD video.

 

That chart answers me exactly what I wanted to know. The chart I posted detailed the same stuff for the i5-6x1 vs i5-6x0 vs i3-5xx (all on the same chart on your link also). It just said the numbers 733 and 900 for them under iGPU and i didn't know if that was just some arbitrary number designation for that particular iGPU chip or a speed number. Speed number it is and I will most likely be getting the i5-6x1 for a little more hp in the HD department.

 

I'm not a big gamer, I hardly play my 360. Play the Wii a little more but not that much. So gaming graphics are not a sticking point for me. I might get a racing sim or two and a steering wheel at some point, but I'm not worried if I don't get full rez and 100fps.

 

Ever consider getting a laptop and a USB HD Tuner?

 

I want something to completely replace my DVR and DVD player to only act as an HTPC full time. Desktop makes more sense from an economic and form factor standpoint. That link I posted (http://www.cetoncorp.com) is the only card that will be able to do what it can do when it comes out. It can do HD including encrypted channels from a cable card m-card (multistream), not just clear QAM channels. It has 4 tuners built into it. The first product they are coming out with is pic-e based. The OEM restriction on this technology was lifted by cable labs (the control everything having to do with cable cards) back late last year sometime and Ceton just happens to be the first to market.

[JaSSon]

What motherboard and case are you looking at? For a Clarksdale CPU you'll need an H55/H57 chipset, and Newegg doesn't sell and of those in micro ATX. But I haven't done any other searching. I'm wanting a HTPC and I'm going back and forth between building one, or just buying an Atom 330 Acer Aspire Revo with nVidia Ion.

[Trouble Maker]

I'm still researching, but these are the easy picks right now. I think you meant not in mini ITX, looks like they have plenty in micro ATX?

 

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=17984815#post17984815

http://www.zotac.com/index.php?option=com_wrapper&view=wrapper&Itemid=100026&lang=un

http://www.newegg.com/Product/NewProduct.aspx?Item=N82E16811154091&Tpk=Apex%20MI-008

 

That board looks like it's only available in the UK right now? I've also been reading about people being worried about shipping time/availability with them (mini itx h55 boards) being new. I was going to wait, do more research until I ordered. Plus I have more free time once winter is over and the tuner card won't be out for a few months still. But I'm debating ordering the mobo soon just in case it takes a while. Everything else I can get on newegg so ordering and getting it should be no problem.

 

Question about graphics power? Am I worrying over nothing? Does it only 'decode' the stream if it's displaying it. i.e. using all 4 tuners on the HTPC recording 2 shows, watching 1 on the living room tv and watching one on the bedroom tv. Is the only one that goes through the iGPU is the one on the living room tv? Then the recording shows simply 'tune' and record, and the bedroom tv is decoded by the extender (xbox 360).

 

If I need the extra power, I'll go i5-661 (for the 900mhz graphics), but if not, why not just get the i3. I'm thinking it should be fast enough otherwise.

 

I need a pci-e slot for the tuner or I would definitely look into the new dell or acer HTPC's that they have out right now. The looks/form factor is really nice.

[JaSSon]

Well, I finally got my HTPC together and I got a new AV receiver that will do DTS-HD and Dolby TrueHD.

 

Now getting it all to work together is a giant pain in the ass!

 

For some reason Windows is reporting that my hardware doesn't support the new HD formats. (it does.) The battle continues...

[Alex1647545498]

Thanks to Jason. I can now watch all kinds of stuff now on the big screen. I think... I think... No, I know, I love you man.

[Trouble Maker]

Well, I finally got my HTPC together and I got a new AV receiver that will do DTS-HD and Dolby TrueHD.

 

Now getting it all to work together is a giant pain in the ass!

 

For some reason Windows is reporting that my hardware doesn't support the new HD formats. (it does.) The battle continues...

 

Fun stuff. If you need any help from the av side let me know!

 

What setup did you go with... what receiver did you get?

 

I'm lusting after every new Onkyo 60x that comes out. I have the 606, but wanted the 607 when it came out, now the 608 looks pretty kick ass. Might try to pick up a 607 and sell my 606 to help make up the difference when the 608 comes out and drives the 607 prices down. I have 7 speakers and a second sub (needs an amp). My receiver does 7.1, but the 607/8 does 7.2 and you can do height channels. I don't have a big enough room to do 7.1 with the speakers behind the couch. So 'only' 5.1 for now.

 

Yamaha is coming out with some awesome looking receivers in the 'lower' end prices.