Child Abuse?

[I Eat Rice]

When it comes to learning, kids like structure as do dogs. The difference comes that when you ring a bell, a dog can be trained to go outside to piss. That classic conditioning isn't how kids learn. They don't get the urge to pee after you ring a bell. That's how you teach a dog to go outside, but you teach a kid to make their bed and do their choirs through leadership and respect for their home and family. They both will however, associate a person with the source of feelings such as fear.

 

Fear doesn't yield respect in children. Not in dogs either. Don't believe me, then call your dog in from outside and beat his ass and act like Alpha. Do that for one day and I'll bet you $100 your dog won't come to you AT ALL the next day if ever again. He doesn't respect you, he fears you. A child such as this teen will rebel and run away just the same.

 

You don't teach dogs or kids with fear. They will end up not listening but rather rebelling and won't do things FOR YOU. No different than a boss / employee relationship. If a boss has to ride his employees to do the work, either they made a bad hire, or they haven't earned respect from their people.

 

 

 

Dude, that's sad if you were raised like that. You know my entire life I have always done things for my parents out of love and respect; not out of fear. I will NEVER instill fear in my kids. Nothing good will ever come from it. I hope you enjoy your "pack" Tonight at our home, we are enjoying "family" movie night. Pack - Family; HUGE Difference. Huge.

 

 

 

Because you had ZERO respect for your parents. That's clear. What's worse is you admit you got to "Chill" and your parents wouldn't bother you. WOW. So you caused trouble and your parents simply banished you to your room and left you to Chill. THAT'S exactly the problem and a clear example of what NOT to do.

 

 

Are fucking serious? You would show your kids Pain and Shock and Awe type reactions/behavior? Just doing so and instilling in a child that such a way is the best way for them to deal with things is so far from doing what's right. Dude, tell me you aren't raising kids like that. Don't....I don't even want to know. Again, speechless. You're absolutely right.....that's what's going to stick in their head.

 

WOW!

 

I cant be that far off in my thinking considering there have been many people that have agreed with what I have said. Make sure to address them as well not just me. Aparently you know nothing about training dogs. It is all about being the Alpha do you ever watch the dog whisper? And no that is not my only source of information my father breeds hunting dogs and I have read many of his books on training and dog "thinking" and have helped alot with his pack of 13 dogs out back. Secondly you are on your way with the teaching of leadership and respect and that it is learned mostly by how the child see's the parent act. But there is only so much to be learned that way and the spanking teaches one that there is consiquences for their actions and will pound that idea home far before sitting in a corner ever will. Now your statments about fear. Fear is the #1 motivator in society right now. It runs peoples lives and peoples actions every day are based off of nothing but this. If you need examples I will be happy to provide you with some. Also by being spanked when I really messed up as a child didn't install fear into my life. I have never feared my parents. After I got my ass beating I was then told that what I did was wrong and that there are consiquences for my actions. Also that statment I made about a pack of wolves and family is the same and not different. That is not how I was raised that is how I see it. A pack of wolves is nothing more than an extended family working together to provide for one another, work for a common goal ie surviving, and used to insure that the younger members learn how to provide for themselves and the pack when it is their time to do so. How is this any different than our family structure that we have now and have used since we were cavemen?

[TTQ B4U]

Funny how my parents raised us with dicilpline and respect... guess what, I have a good job, and a viable member of scioety and have never stollen or hurt anyone (granted I'm very angry, but that's a whole different issue)

 

No one that I'm aware of nor I ever said you would be any different. The angry portion...another story...perhaps. I'll take your word for it.

 

Bullshit on most of everything you said... Tim, as a person I really like you, but your parenting skills are lacking if this is what your thought process is. You Teach your child respect end of story... this earning bullshit is exactly that... you are their parents, they will respect you and in turn learn how to respect other authoritative people.

 

There are obviously more than a few ways to raise kids. We can still be friends regardless please don't feel I've thought otherwise. I do choose to raise my kids and work with my employees on the premise that respect is earned not taught. I stand by the belief that kids don't just simply respect you because you are the parent or the authorities just because. You have to earn their trust and respect. Remember those two words, trust and respect. If you look at any interaction with people that you have during your day, if show someone respect and work to earn their trust, they will take a bullet for you. You can't smack or yell at someone enough to get to take a bullet for you.

 

 

Your thought process of teaching respect with fear is nonsense.... I don't fear my parents at all, but I also knew if I disrespected them or anyone else, there was consiquences to my actions.

 

I highlighted the word but because it's a contradictory term. Anytime you make a point and follow it up by the word but and then a second point, you by definition contradict not compliment that first point. so while you didn't fear your parents you knew there were consequences. Fine, if it works for you.

 

In our house, my son would say that he absolutely doesn't fear his parents AND in fact, he respects us and would do anything FOR us as we are part of a FAMILY not a pack that has a pecking order or consequences. He would also say he knows that he has CHOICES not Consequences. At going on 8, he is free to do a lot more than his friends can, but he has earned my trust and respect to do them. Case in point, he's here with his friend right now playing Wii after school. Nick went and got his timer and set it for 30 minutes. He respects the rules of our house. He's a great kid.

 

werd.... again Tim, I really like you as a person, but you're way off my friend. Kids need boundaries... How do you teach a child boundaries? not by putting them in the corner... that is laziness as a parent IMO

 

No offense taken man. Not until you tell me otherwise. Non intended either. How do you teach kids boundaries? You absolutely do it through trust and respect. Kids will constantly push the limits and test boundaries. You just simply, stay calm (reacting otherwise is completely pointless and sets a bad example) and correct them.

 

Case in point, my 5 year old daughter has brought her toys to the breakfast table. A no no in our house. Breakfast is not for play. She started to cry and whine. That's fine, she has two choices to make. SHE makes the choice. Play and get no breakfast which also results in her losing that toy for the rest of the day or stay and eat without toys at the table. Believe me, she's hungry and even when she has chosen not to eat, she thought about her hunger while at school. She also thought about it when she came home and didn't have her toy.

 

We've gone down that path as a family with our two kids maybe once or twice each. Now, they won't even think of screwing around over breakfast. Her choice, her decisions, under our rules. Rules with choices. That's the key. I've never had to spank her for that.

 

the hardest thing I've ever had to do is spank... no good parent enjoys it, but knows it's necissary... and if you do it properly and explain to the child why and that there is concequences for their actions then you won't have to do it many times to get your point across.

 

Perhaps you and I just think differently. We were raised differently. I just choose to raise my kids without them fearing consequences but rather to freely make choices which requires them to deal with different results. It's not a matter of semantics either.

 

I took martial arts for 12 years and never once would my sensei ever say there's a proper way to use violence to solve a problem. Spanking is a violent action no matter how you look at it. Physical contact to make a point is violence. To save a life or combat a threat, but never to use any type of contact for things other than that.

 

I've said it once and I'll say it again, kids are dumb animals... and yes I said animals... like was said before, we are all animals.

 

Well we're certainly not plants, but you won't ever get me to see that children are dumb animals. I would suggest you'' most certainly find an enlightening conversation pop up if you ever tell that to a child therapist.

[I Eat Rice]

 

 

 

Because you had ZERO respect for your parents. That's clear. What's worse is you admit you got to "Chill" and your parents wouldn't bother you. WOW. So you caused trouble and your parents simply banished you to your room and left you to Chill. THAT'S exactly the problem and a clear example of what NOT to do.

 

 

Are fucking serious? You would show your kids Pain and Shock and Awe type reactions/behavior? Just doing so and instilling in a child that such a way is the best way for them to deal with things is so far from doing what's right. Dude, tell me you aren't raising kids like that. Don't....I don't even want to know. Again, speechless. You're absolutely right.....that's what's going to stick in their head.

 

WOW!

 

I am addressing these on their own. My parents found out really fast that I was very very strong willed and minded. I also have a huge problem with athority and will question at any point that I can. That is why I never got time outs and the such because it didnt work. I needed something a little more solid to get the picture sent home. After the first couple good ass beatings that I got they rearely had to ever disipline me again because I didnt like it. I may have only been spanked 10 times growing up my entire life because I always followed the rules there after. I knew the consiquences of doing bad things and I didnt like it so I made sure to keep my ass in line and now out of all of my cousins I am the most diciplined, grounded, directed, and respectifual person. And guess what I was the only one that got my ass beat when I was out of line... That says something...Also no I do not have kids, my lifestyle still couldn not support them. I agree to disagree with you because debates about God, Politics, and how to raise children are all debats that no one can win because there is no true answer or way set in stone to do it. Just ideas and personal feelings on the issue.

[Slowbalt]

Tim is the hippie in a discussion, haha. I do not have kids because parenting is such an incredibly large responsibility and I am too selfish. I believe in spanking children, as well as teaching respect and open communication.

 

Young children are exactly like young animals....in fact they ARE young animals. Spanking is a way of enforcing the "no" command. Once the child has been conditioned to it, the "no" can be just as effective without the spanking but sometimes might still need to be reinforced. It is very important to never punish a child out of anger , but only because they have done something deserving of punishment. Punishing out of anger is what promotes fear, rebellion, and possibly hatred. Anger punishment IMO would also be a crossover into abuse. This woman is obviously not the best parent and she is either lazy, uneducated or possibly both if she thinks the bible is going to parent her kid. Once a child begins to understand the order of things, they can begin to learn values and social protocol.

 

Parenting skills are on the decline as our true values are more and more replaced with corporate values.

[I Eat Rice]

Tim is the hippie in a discussion, haha. I do not have kids because parenting is such an incredibly large responsibility and I am too selfish. I believe in spanking children, as well as teaching respect and open communication.

 

Young children are exactly like young animals....in fact they ARE young animals. Spanking is a way of enforcing the "no" command. Once the child has been conditioned to it, the "no" can be just as effective without the spanking but sometimes might still need to be reinforced. It is very important to never punish a child out of anger , but only because they have done something deserving of punishment. Punishing out of anger is what promotes fear, rebellion, and possibly hatred. Anger punishment IMO would also be a crossover into abuse. This woman is obviously not the best parent and she is either lazy, uneducated or possibly both if she thinks the bible is going to parent her kid. Once a child begins to understand the order of things, they can begin to learn values and social protocol.

 

Parenting skills are on the decline as our true values are more and more replaced with corporate values.

Ah ha. Thanks for the imput my man. Black opps tonight its going down...

[Alex L.]

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_OL3Aupo7450/TOfIdWn-JpI/AAAAAAAAACo/Cz32d28ypUc/s1600/csi_yeah_skyline.jpg

[TTQ B4U]

Aparently you know nothing about training dogs. It is all about being the Alpha do you ever watch the dog whisper?

 

I know what being Alpha in the world of dogs refers to. I have seen the show, and have done my fair share of reading too, but I have never come across a training situation where you use fear and pain to raise a loyal dog. Besides, this conversation is about kids not dogs.

 

And no that is not my only source of information my father breeds hunting dogs and I have read many of his books on training and dog "thinking" and have helped alot with his pack of 13 dogs out back.

 

I can't comment on your fathers teaching/breeding but I can say there's a huge difference in how you raise a pack of 13 hunting dogs vs. a child.

 

Secondly you are on your way with the teaching of leadership and respect and that it is learned mostly by how the child see's the parent act. But there is only so much to be learned that way and the spanking teaches one that there is consiquences for their actions and will pound that idea home far before sitting in a corner ever will.

• So you agree that a child learns through watching thier parents behaviors?
  
• What type of behavior do you think a child learns when his parents hit them?
  
• So your saying the act of spanking a child is teaching them? Consequences?
  
• You think physically hitting a child drives the understanding of consequences home further than ANY other means?
  

WOW

~perhaps we shoud punch our kids in the gut when they get a B on a test ~Perhaps we should kick them in the balls for a C.

~Fuck, I'm going to bit the living piss out of my kid if he brings home a D.

 

Yep, that will teach him. However, it's WHAT it will teach him that I fear more than any bad grade he'll bring home.

Fear is the #1 motivator in society right now. It runs peoples lives and peoples actions every day are based off of nothing but this.

 

And you think that's healthy?

You mean to say your live your life based on fear and consequences?

 

That's scary. I live my life completely differently. I don't follow rules because I fear consequences, nor will I raise my kids to live that way. They will live life doing "the right thing" because that's what contributing members of society do. How to Win Friends and Influence People. It's a great book. Seven Habits of Highly Successful People is another good one. Neither references spanking kids or fearing consequences.

 

 

Also by being spanked when I really messed up as a child didn't install fear into my life. I have never feared my parents. After I got my ass beating I was then told that what I did was wrong and that there are consequences for my actions.

 

Again, I've not said you'd be an axe murder for it. I just choose not to give my kid as ass beating as I know there's a different and what my wife and I consider a better way. I don't want my kid growing up thinking that ass beatings are the way to teach or that violence is the way to solve a problem.

 

Also that statment I made about a pack of wolves and family is the same and not different. That is not how I was raised that is how I see it. A pack of wolves is nothing more than an extended family working together to provide for one another, work for a common goal ie surviving, and used to insure that the younger members learn how to provide for themselves and the pack when it is their time to do so. How is this any different than our family structure that we have now and have used since we were cavemen?

 

The main difference isn't in the structure, it's in the person. Humans are self aware and that's the #1 thing that separates us from dogs and other animals. Children even at a very young age have the ability to think and not just act on instinct. It's up to the parents to Teach and Instill Values.

 

You can be the alpha dog in your family with your pets, but keep in mind, in Wolfe packs, the Alpha dog is ALWAYS under threat form the others who are looking to take his spot. ALWAYS. They don't just die, they get sick or hurt and are then killed. Survival of the fittest as they say.

 

Humans have learned to live together and use our resources including our actions and thoughts to better our lives and that's something that other animals can never learn. We as parents have to instill those behaviors in our kids so that they will in turn respect rules and others. Otherwise, many, not you, but many, will just go around feeling violence solves problems.

 

I for one will never worry about my kid growing up anxiously awaiting to be an Alpha. He'll earn that through trust and respect.

[TTQ B4U]

Tim is the hippie in a discussion, haha. I do not have kids because parenting is such an incredibly large responsibility and I am too selfish. I believe in spanking children, as well as teaching respect and open communication.

 

I'm the hippie? Maybe in this thread and on the topic of hitting children I am. Here's a question for you, which child would you rather have as a son.

 

Child 1, who is asked by a friend to do something wrong, but didn't because they were "scared to get a spanking".

 

Child 2, who was asked to do the same thing, but their response was "no, because its wrong"

 

I don't know about you, but eventually my children are going to grow up and move out into the adult world where there are no more spankings.

 

Call me a hippie, but I'm one of the few paretnts I suppose that doesn' thave to worry about my kids doing one thing in front of his/her parents and another when we aren't around. I think it's pretty obvious the kid in this story is Child 3 who when asked gave two fucks about consequences because he was taught to be strong and not fear consequences and he also gave two fucks about his parents because he has zero respect for them.

 

It's all about trust and respect. NOT about fear and consequences.

[TTQ B4U]

I am addressing these on their own. My parents found out really fast that I was very very strong willed and minded. I also have a huge problem with athority and will question at any point that I can.

 

So I'll play psychologist and say that you're a strong D-Dominant Personality Type. IMO, your parents should have consulted a consolour to guide them on how to deal with your personality. We can't roll back time, but it would do you some good to understand yourself too. $75 is all you'd need.

 

Today there are far more resources available to do this. Fast, simple cost effective tools for learning about how to manage different personalities abound. There's no excuse for a parent in today's age of 2011 to not take the necessary steps to dealing with this.

 

out of all of my cousins I am the most diciplined, grounded, directed, and respectifual person. And guess what I was the only one that got my ass beat when I was out of line... That says something...

 

True, but for that one something, there are exponentially high numbers of other somethings that impacted you and your cousins as individuals that went into forming who you are today. You can't center who you are now in comparison to them simply on being spanked.

 

I agree to disagree with you because debates about God, Politics, and how to raise children are all debats that no one can win because there is no true answer or way set in stone to do it. Just ideas and personal feelings on the issue.

 

It's all good. I'm not hear to piss you off or call names, place blame, etc. Hopefully that goes both ways.

[I Eat Rice]

So I'll play psychologist and say that you're a strong D-Dominant Personality Type. IMO, your parents should have consulted a consolour to guide them on how to deal with your personality. We can't roll back time, but it would do you some good to understand yourself too. $75 is all you'd need.

 

Today there are far more resources available to do this. Fast, simple cost effective tools for learning about how to manage different personalities abound. There's no excuse for a parent in today's age of 2011 to not take the necessary steps to dealing with this.

 

 

 

True, but for that one something, there are exponentially high numbers of other somethings that impacted you and your cousins as individuals that went into forming who you are today. You can't center who you are now in comparison to them simply on being spanked.

 

 

 

It's all good. I'm not hear to piss you off or call names, place blame, etc. Hopefully that goes both ways.

 

I have had to see a few head doc's in my younger years. Hell had to see one last summer for a little while due to some legal trouble I got in ha ha ha. They have all told me the same things, which is just what you have told me I have known I was that type of person for years. As far as the cousins statement I made that is more to show that solid stern parenting in whatever shape and form results in better results than what their parents practiced. That was something along the lines that tv and an xbox will baby sit while you can go get drunk... And my man you are all good. You have not even gotten a rise out of me yet and have not seen a single bit of name calling out of you or anything else you have listed. You are fun to debate with, more than likely you are the most fun on this entire forum because you are educated, confident in your feelings, and you do not resort to the low ball comments alot of people around here turn to, ( usually due to lack of education, or general mis understanding with how things work).

[Slowbalt]

I'm the hippie? Maybe in this thread and on the topic of hitting children I am. Here's a question for you, which child would you rather have as a son.

 

Child 1, who is asked by a friend to do something wrong, but didn't because they were "scared to get a spanking".

 

Child 2, who was asked to do the same thing, but their response was "no, because its wrong"

 

I don't know about you, but eventually my children are going to grow up and move out into the adult world where there are no more spankings.

 

This question doesn't really have any value to it as either way my child would be doing the "right" thing in your scenarios. I would actually prefer option 3 that says no because it is wrong and then explains WHY it is wrong and uses logic and reasoning to do this..... Before a child understands, they are simply reactive bags of flesh, interacting to stimulus with response. You seem to think that spanking is akin to "hitting" or "punching in the gut". It would seem that you may have a misunderstanding of how I use the term "spanking". A spank is a short term pain as a CONSEQUENCE to a questionable action. I am not saying that your methods are inferior or wrong, just that they are not the only way and spanking in the proper context is not only beneficial but preferential.

Call me a hippie, but I'm one of the few paretnts I suppose that doesn' thave to worry about my kids doing one thing in front of his/her parents and another when we aren't around.

It's all about trust and respect. NOT about fear and consequences.

 

My mom said that too:rolleyes: your kids WILL mess up and they WILL lie to you....this is a fact of our present culture. I do agree that trust and respect are very important, I disagree that fear and consequences are not important when used properly.

[TTQ B4U]

This question doesn't really have any value to it as either way my child would be doing the "right" thing in your scenarios.

 

The difference is your child would be doing it not because they believe in the right thing, but rather because they don't want to get punished. That doesn't mean they won't ever believe in the right thing but I hope you see that.

 

A spank is a short term pain as a CONSEQUENCE to a questionable action. I am not saying that your methods are inferior or wrong, just that they are not the only way and spanking in the proper context is not only beneficial but preferential.

 

I'll agree that my way isn't the only way. That's really goes without having to be said, but so many here are so damn litteral Your Mileage will vary on which is more beneficial or preferential in your own home.

 

I do agree that trust and respect are very important, I disagree that fear and consequences are not important when used properly.

 

IMO Fear is not an acceptable form of punishment. Again, perhaps your home is different. We raise our kids by helping them learn that it is their behavior which controls consequences, both good and bad. We give privileges for being responsible about following rules and we take away privileges when the child isn't responsible and doesn't follow the rules. No hitting is needed. When you hit a child, you cause them to feel either fear or anger instead of feeling regret for their mistake or regret for disappointing you.

[TTQ B4U]

I have had to see a few head doc's in my younger years. Hell had to see one last summer for a little while due to some legal trouble I got in ha ha ha. They have all told me the same things, which is just what you have told me I have known I was that type of person for years.

 

I manage individuals like you at work. I even work with them just like my own kids. I Encourage independence I expect them to do everything they are capable of doing! I don't tell them how to do thing, my people tell me how THEY want to do things. TOGETHER we measure their results and evaluate what works, what doesn't and they explain to me how THEY are going to fix it next go-round. I only chime in with questions that guide them down the path I feel might be beneficial. Never is it my idea.

 

I exercise patients as we all learn through mistakes and I give rewards or praise for good efforts. Gently guiding them toward improved results. Giving these privileges yields a responsible worker....or in this case, child.

 

Again, at work, I'm not a Boss or manager, I am a COACH. Same at home. I'm the coach of our team, not the Alpha Leader of my pack. You tell me what kind of football team you'd want to play one...one with a good coach or one with an Alpha Dog leading his pack? Me....I want a good coach. The difference? One tells you what he knows, the other teaches you what he knows. I teach.

[Nitrousbird]

Spanking works - period. Doesn't mean you have to beat the shit out of your kid, but a good spanking does wonders.

 

I'm not going to listen to any of this hippie BS about no spanking, time out, etc. I've seen it work, and I know a LOT of people who later in life are thankful their parents spanked them, and respect their parents more for it.

 

I am pro spanking.

[TTQ B4U]

I am pro spanking.

 

Insert histerical giggling like a school boy

[Tractor]

Sounds like you have some great kids Tim. I hope it all works in a few years. It might, if so great.

 

Now I know I would have tried you to know end though:-) I'm probably as strong willed as it gets and I'd take the "I'll show you approach" and follow it through to whatever end that would have meant. yeah I know "crazy" hehe

[V8 Beast]

A good parent leads with motivation. They find a way to reward children for a job well done to help prevent having to use discipline on the back end. The problem is not the spankings... its the fact that too many parents are reactive rather than proactive. At the same time a good parent practices multiple forms of discipline based on the child and the way they respond. Just because it worked on you doesn't mean it will work on your kids. I gave my daughter 7 years before I resorted to spankings... instant results. My son on the other hand doesn't need spankings. My parents beat the shit out of me growing up so its funny seeing how saying I'm disappointed in him holds more weight than my belt. Like a said each kid is different. As a parent you have the right (to a point) to make that judgement call. You cant say either way is right or wrong as a whole, they both work. Timeouts have created rapists just as spankings have created murderers. Hell, some of the kids that were ignored completely have grown up to be great people. But thats a different subject.

 

I will say one thing. People that were beat growing up are damn right for sure more likely to beat their kids. Why... because they know that shit works If I asked what your parents favorite belt was to beat you with a lot could give a response and would have a mini flashback! My dad had a leather belt with 100 holes that he said was for aerodynamic reasons. In the end he broke it on Big Steve's butt BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!

[TTQ B4U]

Sounds like you have some great kids Tim. I hope it all works in a few years. It might, if so great.

 

Now I know I would have tried you to know end though:-) I'm probably as strong willed as it gets and I'd take the "I'll show you approach" and follow it through to whatever end that would have meant. yeah I know "crazy" hehe

 

Thanks. They are great kids. Kids being the key word. I want them to have fun, have no worries and especially no worries at home. The last thing they need in life is any amount of fear or distrust in a parent. I want them to know I have their back to no end. I am raising them to realize they can inspire and garner respect through their giving it first. What else is there to being a parent. Know the wa;, show the way; and go the way as they say.