RedRocket1647545505 Posted October 9, 2013 Report Share Posted October 9, 2013 But hey your convinced I'm stupid :dumb: Yup Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thorne Posted October 9, 2013 Report Share Posted October 9, 2013 :dumb: Yup Never claimed to be an English Scholar. ;] Then again Albert Einstein failed basic arithmetic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zeitgeist57 Posted October 9, 2013 Report Share Posted October 9, 2013 It's a good thing Thorne got hip wit DAT ACA...he's going to need it for his bleeding heart. Someone get some bleach and a mop in hurrr. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngryBMW Posted October 9, 2013 Report Share Posted October 9, 2013 So how the fuck am I the idiot, I said exactly that. It's really easy to toss words around when you don't have to back them up. Since the Evidence speaks otherwise shrug. Coverage doesn't have to be insurance. He can cover the cost by whipping out the old plastic. You are the IDIOT because I never once said I feel you need turned away if you cannot pay cash on the spot. I said that you need to pay your own shit, and quoted you where I said that. Paying your bills on time, over time, constitutes paying your own shit. Get it? You tried to put words in my mouth and were shown where you are wrong. Hence why I will continue to call you an idiot. Idiot. I don't fix PC's BTW thats low end shit. But hey your convinced I'm stupid, Yet I work 2 jobs that are both considered to be highly skilled. I don't care what you do in IT. You may even be halfway decent at your job. In the debate about and your understanding of healthcare, you are an idiot. What I don't accept is assholes calling me an idiot because my stance is different. You are an idiot because you don't understand what you are arguing. Idiot. -Marc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngryBMW Posted October 9, 2013 Report Share Posted October 9, 2013 Nope. Because in reality, if I wreck my car without insurance I expect to have to go bankrupt. I'm fed up with laws to protect us from ourselves. If you are too fucking stupid to cover yourself... well you get what you deserve. Don't give me the un-insurable BS. When HIPAA was passed in 1996 they required group plans to accept people regardless of pre-existing conditions. So you either A. Work for someone who offers a group plan or B. Dont work, and get on medicare medicaid He doesn't get it, and never will. In Bills eyes, being an idiot > logic. Never claimed to be an English Scholar. ;] Then again Albert Einstein failed basic arithmetic. Oh Jesus, now you are compairing yourself to Einstein? :gtfo: -Marc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crash1647545504 Posted October 9, 2013 Report Share Posted October 9, 2013 Poor people work hard too. It's a joke to think the middle class in all ranks or the wealthy don't take advanage of they system as well, look at our so proudly elected officials right now. This thread is becoming off topic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandon Posted October 9, 2013 Report Share Posted October 9, 2013 Interesting how there is a trend of the countries with universal healthcare having a longer life expectancy? How about Infant Mortality rates? Or how America Those supposed best country on this earth is the only industrialized country with out a universal healthcare system... How can we be the best if we don't even care of our own. http://sickothemovie.com/_media/SiCKO_sickofactoids.pdf ^ From Eighteen thousand people die each year because they are uninsured.5 According to the UN Human Development Report, “The uninsured are less likely to have regular outpatient care, so they are more likely to be hospitalized for avoidable health problems. Once in hospital, they receive fewer services and are more likely to die in the hospital than are insured patients. They also receive less preventive care. Over 40% of the uninsured do not have a regular place to go when they are sick and over a third of the uninsured say that they or someone in their family went without needed care, including recommended treatments or prescription drugs in the last year, because of cost.”6 ^ This speaks to Mr Angry Bill, let me level with you. While they may have longer life expectancy there are so many uncontrollable variables I am not sold on this being the solution, there are better cheaper alternatives then soicalized fined healthcare. But one thing is for sure their .Govs are all bankrupt, and or on a collision course for MASSIVE cuts, and SHUTDOWNS. Social single payer systems do not work in the long haul, its really easy to study this as well. Look across the pond and find out how wonderfully well these other .Govs are operating...Massive healthcare surplus's right, people happier then every, tons of jobs, tons of wealth, all peaches and roses... No, negative, wrong. It is easy. Study social medicine as it relates to .Gov and find that really its bad as it relates to a federal level. And finally when people realize there are no jobs, no income to pay for their ACA fines, no income to pay for the inflated goods and services, does healthcare even matter? More deficit spending... Creditors only continue to loan to delinquents for SO long. It is all about the money, jobs, economy first, I do not care what anyone says, it is gravity. This ACA will only defy gravity for a short period of time, then like all physics, there will be and equal and opposite reaction. The sad part is it is staring us in the face, and we, the .Gov will not even look to study the short comings, instead we plunge into greater darkness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngryBMW Posted October 9, 2013 Report Share Posted October 9, 2013 Poor people work hard too. It's a joke to think the middle class in all ranks or the wealthy don't take advanage of they system as well, look at our so proudly elected officials right now. This thread is becoming off topic. :thumbup: Our wonderful political officials opt themselves out of what they are forcing on everyone else...awesome. -Marc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2highpsi Posted October 9, 2013 Report Share Posted October 9, 2013 Poor people work hard too. It's a joke to think the middle class in all ranks or the wealthy don't take advanage of they system as well, look at our so proudly elected officials right now. This thread is becoming off topic. Define taking advantage of the system. A company that that nets 500k in profit has a $175,000 federal tax liability. This doesn't even taking into all the other bullshit taxes that they have to pay (like Ohio CAT Tax.. dont get me started on that one) So this company uses typical write-offs and deductions to get that tax liability down to $120,000 (plus all the bullshit other taxes). To you that might seem like "taking advantage". To me, it is reducing the RIDICULOUS base amount, to one that is somewhat easier to swallow. But a person who pays $500 in taxes all year... then gets a $10k refund, free housing, free insurance, free food. (a net drain) That is taking advantage You can only take away from productive society and support those not willing to support themselves for so long..... eventually something will give Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thorne Posted October 9, 2013 Report Share Posted October 9, 2013 You are the IDIOT because I never once said I feel you need turned away if you cannot pay cash on the spot. I said that you need to pay your own shit, and quoted you where I said that. Paying your bills on time, over time, constitutes paying your own shit. Get it? You tried to put words in my mouth and were shown where you are wrong. Hence why I will continue to call you an idiot. Idiot. I don't care what you do in IT. You may even be halfway decent at your job. In the debate about and your understanding of healthcare, you are an idiot. You are an idiot because you don't understand what you are arguing. Idiot. -Marc Your right I have 0 comprehension... I've been dealing with our healthcare system on a intimate basis now for a couple years, and considering how much I make and that I have no kids or other write offs I pay a descent amount in taxes I should be bitching about all these slackers spending my tax dollars. So where is the line were it becomes socialism ? Fire ? Police ? Roads ? Health? Where is that line? I don't see you out there fixing pot holes in the road. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TTQ B4U Posted October 9, 2013 Report Share Posted October 9, 2013 Ummm it's called pooling your risk. You act like every person who's down and out choose to be there. Shit happens. we've had this conversation before. bad luck and shit happening doesn't = everyone has to pay for you. shit happens to me too but I don't pass my losses off on everyone else nor would I support a law to do so. it's called accountability. When I was 24 and still in college ON MY OWN I worked my ass off to help pay our way through schooling, namely my wifes. I broke my back and blew a disc and had a personally responsibility of over $9800 that I worked out with Riverside Hospital to pay interest free over the course of 24 months. I didn't go belly up nor would I expect others to pay it. I PAID FOR IT ALL. Cancer is a wonderful example. You don't get cancer because your fat or your poor or any other factor. People who are perfectly healthy otherwise can get Cancer. Now by the stance of hard core consertives those people should just cover them selves...... brother died of it and mom is fighting breast cancer. I know more about it and the coverages than most. yes it sucks, yes it can happen but it's not all by chance. my mother lived in a house of smokers and my brother was one. I don't feel I should have to pay for the majority that DO have lifestyles that lead to it. If someone broke into your house would you grab your gun and go out on the streets hunting for the perpetrator or would you call the police? I'm the first line of defense until the police come. Perhaps Obama should provide me a free gun and the rest of the world should pay for my CHL, range time and ammo. Hmm.... How about your house gets hit my lightning and catches fire? Would you get the water hose out and try to put the fire out or call the fire department. Better example is hurricanes.....NO I don't think we should all take rate hikes for the fuck-tards that rebuild in hurricane prone areas. Just like Fire Zones out west....they are UNINSURABLE and collectively THEY CAN ALL get together and buy their own high risk fucking insurance. MY PREMIUMS should NOT cover them. Thus why I support HIGH RISK premiums being pushed down to those that are high risk. Just the same, let those taking advantage of all that Obamafail has to offer be the ones that fund it. My stance is healthcare should be the same way. And I accept that other disagree with me. What I don't accept is assholes calling me an idiot because my stance is different. I didn't call you an idiot. I do think you haven't thought through all the options and while you support my paying for your subsidized premiums, I do not. In turn, I care zero fucks when companies cut employees, lower wages and in the end the free lunch you are reaping and about to reap comes back to cost you in other ways. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thorne Posted October 9, 2013 Report Share Posted October 9, 2013 Bill, let me level with you. While they may have longer life expectancy there are so many uncontrollable variables I am not sold on this being the solution, there are better cheaper alternatives then soicalized fined healthcare. But one thing is for sure their .Govs are all bankrupt, and or on a collision course for MASSIVE cuts, and SHUTDOWNS. Social single payer systems do not work in the long haul, its really easy to study this as well. Look across the pond and find out how wonderfully well these other .Govs are operating...Massive healthcare surplus's right, people happier then every, tons of jobs, tons of wealth, all peaches and roses... No, negative, wrong. It is easy. Study social medicine as it relates to .Gov and find that really its bad as it relates to a federal level. And finally when people realize there are no jobs, no income to pay for their ACA fines, no income to pay for the inflated goods and services, does healthcare even matter? More deficit spending... Creditors only continue to loan to delinquents for SO long. It is all about the money, jobs, economy first, I do not care what anyone says, it is gravity. This ACA will only defy gravity for a short period of time, then like all physics, there will be and equal and opposite reaction. The sad part is it is staring us in the face, and we, the .Gov will not even look to study the short comings, instead we plunge into greater darkness. Single Payer Systems are working in other countries true? Out of all the people posting in this thread Brandon your posts are the only ones I've read that have been based on actual arguments and though out concepts. Sadly we have others like Marc who just spew garbage and call anyone an idiot or stupid who doesn't agree with him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TTQ B4U Posted October 9, 2013 Report Share Posted October 9, 2013 So where is the line were it becomes socialism ? Fire ? Police ? Roads ? Health? Where is that line? I don't see you out there fixing pot holes in the road. The real question is where is the line for personal responsibility and why the fuck should responsible citizens be forced to pay for unresponsible ones? Again, put ACA funding as a line item on tax returns and let the bleeding hearts like you form your own insurance pool. Those fuck-tards that live off the gov't tit can get "a little less back" for smokes and beer and let them BE THE ONES TAXED into paying for the pool of less responsible or down and out people. The rest of us who are already covered and not a part of the Obamafail wouldn't then get a free pass on having to contribute. Fund this bullshit bill with the already wasted entitlements that are out there. Fuck this bullshit of taxing MY FAMILY and let those that are using it pay for it and spread the costs out ACROSS THEIR POOL not mine. I'm sorry but the time has come to raise the bar not lower it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thorne Posted October 9, 2013 Report Share Posted October 9, 2013 we've had this conversation before. bad luck and shit happening doesn't = everyone has to pay for you. shit happens to me too but I don't pass my losses off on everyone else nor would I support a law to do so. it's called accountability. When I was 24 and still in college ON MY OWN I worked my ass off to help pay our way through schooling, namely my wifes. I broke my back and blew a disc and had a personally responsibility of over $9800 that I worked out with Riverside Hospital to pay interest free over the course of 24 months. I didn't go belly up nor would I expect others to pay it. I paid it. brother died of it and mom is fighting breast cancer. I know more about it and the coverages than most. yes it sucks, yes it can happen but it's not all by chance. my mother lived in a house of smokers and my brother was one. I don't feel I should have to pay for the majority that DO have lifestyles that lead to it. I'm the first line of defense until the police come. Perhaps Obama should provide me a free gun and the rest of the world should pay for my CHL, range time and ammo. Hmm.... Better example is hurricanes.....NO I don't think we should all take rate hikes for the fuck-tards that rebuild in hurricane prone areas. Just like Fire Zones out west....they are UNINSURABLE and collectively THEY CAN ALL get together and buy their own high risk fucking insurance. MY PREMIUMS should NOT cover them. Thus why I support HIGH RISK premiums being pushed down to those that are high risk. I didn't call you an idiot. I do think you haven't thought through all the options and while you support my paying for your subsidized premiums, I do not. In turn, I care zero fucks when companies cut employees, lower wages and in the end the free lunch you are reaping and about to reap comes back to cost you in other ways. I wasn't referring to you calling me and idiot. I've never seen you speak to anyone with that level of disrespect. I also respect your opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TTQ B4U Posted October 9, 2013 Report Share Posted October 9, 2013 I wasn't referring to you calling me and idiot. I've never seen you speak to anyone with that level of disrespect. I also respect your opinion. Thanks. I do get fired up though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thorne Posted October 9, 2013 Report Share Posted October 9, 2013 We all do. Health care is a very touchy subject Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngryBMW Posted October 9, 2013 Report Share Posted October 9, 2013 Sadly we have others like Marc who just spew garbage and call anyone an idiot or stupid who doesn't agree with him. I wasn't referring to you calling me and idiot. I've never seen you speak to anyone with that level of disrespect. I also respect your opinion. Do you know what irony is? -Marc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandon Posted October 9, 2013 Report Share Posted October 9, 2013 Single Payer Systems are working in other countries true? Out of all the people posting in this thread Brandon your posts are the only ones I've read that have been based on actual arguments and though out concepts. Sadly we have others like Marc who just spew garbage and call anyone an idiot or stupid who doesn't agree with him. I am not so sure... REALLY good to spend some time here. Some decent sources http://heartland.org/policy-documents/buyer-beware-failure-single-payer-health-care Long read. http://www.nationalcenter.org/NPA555_Sweden_Health_Care.html Study Sweden? Another fun article I like - Maybe debunking some of your information http://www.forbes.com/sites/aroy/2012/03/19/fareed-zakarias-puzzling-take-on-health-care-in-britain-taiwan-and-switzerland/ Quote from the forbes article “the quality of its care can shift as funding waxes and wanes.” - That is my concern, like all .Gov programs, wait till the money is not there to fund it...This can be easily proven time and again. I read this crap every night for an hour before I can sleep, not sure why but its what I do, I scour and read. I read liberal stuff to, I do need ammunition after all...They have their points I will say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
copperhead Posted October 9, 2013 Report Share Posted October 9, 2013 I'm sorry but the time has come to raise the bar not lower it. http://www.southparkstudios.com/full-episodes/standalone,do-not-link-directly-to-this-page?dragonmaster=2768&burdell=0949ba9265076c185c789b7fa240e2c7&c=c541c989-b10c-4ef8-9dbc-66000eff7bcd&r=gpb&time=16 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crash1647545504 Posted October 9, 2013 Report Share Posted October 9, 2013 Define taking advantage of the system. A company that that nets 500k in profit has a $175,000 federal tax liability. This doesn't even taking into all the other bullshit taxes that they have to pay (like Ohio CAT Tax.. dont get me started on that one) So this company uses typical write-offs and deductions to get that tax liability down to $120,000 (plus all the bullshit other taxes). To you that might seem like "taking advantage". To me, it is reducing the RIDICULOUS base amount, to one that is somewhat easier to swallow. But a person who pays $500 in taxes all year... then gets a $10k refund, free housing, free insurance, free food. (a net drain) That is taking advantage You can only take away from productive society and support those not willing to support themselves for so long..... eventually something will give It's not even worth arguing because your right about what you just said. The only point I am trying to make is that just because I don't make much money and come in under the poverty line doesn't mean I don't work hard. I dig in and get my hands dirty. When I'm not working as a full time Landscape Construction Forman I give up my Saturdays and Sundays to make a little extra cash picking up odd jobs, I bust my ass to have what I do; Zero debt, a truck, a place to rent, and food in my mouth. I can't afford health insurance nor did my company suplly it. But I damn well better not be turned away because I don't have it. I will set up a payment plan with the billing office and I will pay my bill off. I've never filled for unemployment between seasonal jobs and have never taken advandage of anything. Yet these healthcare threads are makeing me feel as though I'm one of these lazy, self loathing, overweight americans, for the simple fact that I can't supply myself with health insurance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2highpsi Posted October 9, 2013 Report Share Posted October 9, 2013 It's not even worth arguing because your right about what you just said. The only point I am trying to make is that just because I don't make much money and come in under the poverty line doesn't mean I don't work hard. I dig in and get my hands dirty. When I'm not working as a full time Landscape Construction Forman I give up my Saturdays and Sundays to make a little extra cash picking up odd jobs, I bust my ass to have what I do; Zero debt, a truck, a place to rent, and food in my mouth. I can't afford health insurance nor did my company suplly it. But I damn well better not be turned away because I don't have it. I will set up a payment plan with the billing office and I will pay my bill off. I've never filled for unemployment between seasonal jobs and have never taken advandage of anything. Yet these healthcare threads are makeing me feel as though I'm one of these lazy, self loathing, overweight americans, for the simple fact that I can't supply myself with health insurance. Don't take what I said out of context. I don't loathe people below the poverty line. In fact I have family members living below it. I know many people that bust their asses for next to nothing. Here is my honest question, and please don't take it wrong. Why don't you seek full time employment with a company that offers benefits? EDIT: And I never said I believed anyone should be turned away. Before the ACA no one was turned away, and my premiums were more affordable. My argument is merely that we took a step backwards rather than forwards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thorne Posted October 9, 2013 Report Share Posted October 9, 2013 I am not so sure... REALLY good to spend some time here. Some decent sources http://heartland.org/policy-documents/buyer-beware-failure-single-payer-health-care Long read. http://www.nationalcenter.org/NPA555_Sweden_Health_Care.html Study Sweden? Another fun article I like - Maybe debunking some of your information http://www.forbes.com/sites/aroy/2012/03/19/fareed-zakarias-puzzling-take-on-health-care-in-britain-taiwan-and-switzerland/ Quote from the forbes article “the quality of its care can shift as funding waxes and wanes.” - That is my concern, like all .Gov programs, wait till the money is not there to fund it...This can be easily proven time and again. I read this crap every night for an hour before I can sleep, not sure why but its what I do, I scour and read. I read liberal stuff to, I do need ammunition after all...They have their points I will say. I feel ya , I've been listening to the debates on a daily basis now. I'm going to read the things you posted later this evening Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crash1647545504 Posted October 9, 2013 Report Share Posted October 9, 2013 Don't take what I said out of context. I don't loathe people below the poverty line. In fact I have family members living below it. I know many people that bust their asses for next to nothing. That was mostly an accumulation of thought after reading several threads on the subject. didnt mean to accuse you of saying those things Here is my honest question, and please don't take it wrong. Why don't you seek full time employment with a company that offers benefits? Honestley, because I have yet to give up on chasing my dream to become a Professional Snowboarder. On some levels I already am, I am a paid athlete for a major resort, I am involved in several filming projects, photo shoots, published in mags, free gear ect... some companies also give me a budget to travel and shoot film around the country. I'm also a professional Coach. I train athletes in halfpipe and slopestyle between the ages of 10-21 who will someday turn pro themselves. My winters are crazy busy and I have to many good things going on that could one day offer great stability in my life. Coaching is a back up. If being an athlete myself falls through, I still have an oppertunity through my coaching experiance and education programs to one day coach an olympic team or work for a year round acadamy. Untill I reach that level benifits are hard to come by. In the summer, I put my head down and dig ditches, run crews building landscapes, clean toilets, whatever needs done so that I can save up and have a rainy day fund. Finding a regular full time job to gain benifits is definally something I could do and have the experiance to do, but It means walking away from the things that make me happy in my life and the things I have spent the last 10 years building on, not to mention walking away from something I love and want to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2highpsi Posted October 9, 2013 Report Share Posted October 9, 2013 I am going to try to address this as respectfully as I can. So please don't take offense. Finding a regular full time job to gain benifits is definally something I could do and have the experiance to do, but It means walking away from the things that make me happy in my life and the things I have spent the last 10 years building on, not to mention walking away from something I love and want to do. I think it is awesome that you are going after your dream. I applaud you for not giving up, and doing the extra work required. As far as I can tell, you are FAR from a drain on society. That being said.... You and you alone make the choice to chase a dream rather than accept employment somewhere securing health care benefits for yourself. If you need medical care and can't afford it, I don't think anyone else should be burdened with your debt. As far as I can tell... you don't think other people should pay your way either. You, my friend, seem to be in the minority. A responsible dream chaser. The people who want responsible members of society to subsidize their healthcare while they galavant through life doing whatever they please are the ones that people bitch about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thorne Posted October 9, 2013 Report Share Posted October 9, 2013 I am going to try to address this as respectfully as I can. So please don't take offense. I think it is awesome that you are going after your dream. I applaud you for not giving up, and doing the extra work required. As far as I can tell, you are FAR from a drain on society. That being said.... You and you alone make the choice to chase a dream rather than accept employment somewhere securing health care benefits for yourself. If you need medical care and can't afford it, I don't think anyone else should be burdened with your debt. As far as I can tell... you don't think other people should pay your way either. You, my friend, seem to be in the minority. A responsible dream chaser. The people who want responsible members of society to subsidize their healthcare while they galavant through life doing whatever they please are the ones that people bitch about. I agree with everything your saying. I don't think anyone wants to fund the lazy fuck. Shit my sister is the problem plain and simple she pops out kids and cant afford ... One of the reason's I support these types of things Is for every fuck up POS leach there's people who truly need help. IF you believe the stats its 3%. Lets round that up to 10% . So for every LEECH there's 9 other people who really need the help. According to the U.S. Department of Labor statistics website, based on the 2012 IPIA 3-Year average data report, fraud was prevalent in 2.67% of cases. [9] XML and XLS Unemployment Insurance data sheets released yearly available at: http://www.dol.gov/dol/maps/Data.htm ^ from the liberal wikipedia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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