1fast5gp Posted November 21, 2013 Report Share Posted November 21, 2013 The 12 hour course just teaches you the basics and the law. Even with that I don't think it does enough to help you out in a real life situation. Consequences of making a bad decision during critical times could mean life or death. Not knowing the law could mean time in prison. I think it should be a pre-requisite for a person to know the operations and different type of firearms before they go to class and class should mostly involve knowing the law inside and out and what to do lawfully in certain situation arises. Also there should be more time on the range with live firing drills where if you have to use a HG to defend your self, IE drawing out of the holster, shooting and moving to cover, clearing failures, reloading, etc. While we are on this topic, Advance Conceal Carry 1 and 2 from mofta is a great class to take that goes over all of that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wnaplay1647545503 Posted November 21, 2013 Report Share Posted November 21, 2013 If there was ever a situation you felt you needed to 1. carry 2. draw your weapon, I wonder if "what is legal" will cross your mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LJ Posted November 21, 2013 Report Share Posted November 21, 2013 If there was ever a situation you felt you needed to 1. carry 2. draw your weapon, I wonder if "what is legal" will cross your mind. It was more about carrying in general. Also about escalating situations and putting yourself into situations. Again, when you carry you have a lot more responsibility than just killing someone and worrying about it later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wnaplay1647545503 Posted November 21, 2013 Report Share Posted November 21, 2013 My instructor told us its a permit to carry a concealed weapon. Your weapon should only come out when in fear for your life. I didn't need to know any more than that. Oh and inform an officer when your first come in contact. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LJ Posted November 21, 2013 Report Share Posted November 21, 2013 My instructor told us its a permit to carry a concealed weapon. Your weapon should only come out when in fear for your life. I didn't need to know any more than that. Oh and inform an officer when your first come in contact. You need to know a lot more than that. To think otherwise is irresponsible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nurkvinny Posted November 21, 2013 Report Share Posted November 21, 2013 You need to know a lot more than that. To think otherwise is irresponsible. Sorry Jason, but yep. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wnaplay1647545503 Posted November 21, 2013 Report Share Posted November 21, 2013 What else would I possible need to know? I went in knowing and having used firearms in the past. I am not saying others do not need firearm training however I certainly don't feel safe with the guys who were in my class that never once held a firearm, being taught in 20 mins how to safely manage one. If you don't know when you should draw your weapon prior to going into a class then taking the class I took wouldn't help you. Its simple if you feel your life is in danger then shoot. If you feel your life is in danger because someone yells at you, your a moron and deserve to suffer the consequences. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lag wagon Posted November 21, 2013 Report Share Posted November 21, 2013 I would not want my course to be any shorter than it was. BUT I had good instructors. In my 12 hour class, we spent a good few hours going over potential scenarios and legal implications. If you don't think it's worthwhile to discuss scenarios and plan to fire whenever you're threatened, well, you don't really need a license to do that. The jury will figure it out anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XChris1632X Posted November 21, 2013 Report Share Posted November 21, 2013 Where is Mojoe to chime in on this? There is way too much for me to type in my response. I agree 4 is too short. 4 is barely enough to cover laws in my opinion. There is a huge difference in hunting and being a gun lover compared to possibly taking someone's life. The most important thing I think you should take away from training is scenarios and examples. The whole reason you are carrying a gun is to protect yourself. In this day in age, protecting yourself after the discharge is just as important as he situation in which you are using your firearm. Also protecting others in your sorroundings.growing up hunting and loving guns doesn't make you an expert at taking someone's life in self defense. I have been a part of military police for over 7 years now and we are constantly training on situations and scenarios. Not to mention the evolving training, laws, situations, and methods. If you think your an expert and that you couldn't benefit from more training than you are putting yourself at risk. Often before walking into public places I sit for 20 seconds or so and let the worst play through my head and decide how I will handle myself. I would put money on the fact that good instructors such as mojoe or others here who are considered subject matter experts dothe same or similar. If you narrow your mind to "i will shoot when I am in fear" you are limiting yourself. What if it is a week before Christmas at Tuttle mall? You going to just start throwing rounds around? Sure it is easy to give an answer now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sol740 Posted November 21, 2013 Report Share Posted November 21, 2013 As a certified NRA instructor, I think learning one's audience, feeling out their level of competence, and being able to adjust a course to save everybody some time would be great. However that said, sticking to the NRA Basic Pistol Course was stressed. While getting into the specifics of law, not so much. Regardless, no one is ready to carry a pistol after 10 hours of class and 2 hours of range. So the number of hours is arbitrary in my opinion and I'm all for lowering the minimum required by law. It takes discipline to get to the range often, learn your weapon, stay trained, and research to the best of your ability the law as it may pertain to your use of said weapon. Don't take any instructor's word, do your research, and hire a firearms-friendly lawyer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
copperhead Posted November 21, 2013 Report Share Posted November 21, 2013 So if you agree with dropping it to 4 hours, why 4? Why not 3 or 2? Hell if you pass a background check, why even have a class? PA requires zero training. Just walk in, hand them $20 and pass the background check. VA allows ANY training, including hunter safety courses. There are websites that charge you $20 - $40, have you watch a short video on youtube, then give you a test that you take until you pass, and then you get a certificate that allows you to get a VA permit. These places aren't known for vigilantes or any large number of CCW holders doing dumb shit. I wouldn't be opposed to "testing into" classes, that are required to get the permit. Require that the person is able to pass a written test showing the various parts of a gun and how they work. Fail that test, you have to go through a basics class before moving on to the laws section. This way people that are already familiar with guns don't have to go through the "this is a trigger, and the gun shoots when you pull it" parts of the training. Have the laws section required to cover certain material, and make a realistic minimum time to go through it. The class I took had a lawyer come in to speak, and at the end they were still trying to come up with more stuff to say. I personally was very disappointed in how my 2 hours of range time used up half a box of rounds. In two hours of training I'd like to run through at least 100. And this was a class of maybe 15 people. So this could stand to be improved. I'd like to say the second amendment doesn't say I need to have permission to carry a gun, but sadly there are plenty of people out there that need lots of training before they can carry safely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1fast5gp Posted November 21, 2013 Report Share Posted November 21, 2013 What else would I possible need to know? What if the officer asks for your gun? What if the officer doesn't give you a chance to notify? That just some of the issues. Without extra training, most CCW holders are pretty much equiped with a false sense of security. They have no idea how unprepared they really are to handle a critical, stressful encounter with an attacker. My instructor told us its a permit to carry a concealed weapon. Your weapon should only come out when in fear for your life. It's easier said then done. Have you ever practiced drawing out of your holster in a very stressful situation? Have you ever shot you gun on the move before? After you stop the threat, what do you do? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LJ Posted November 21, 2013 Report Share Posted November 21, 2013 What if the officer asks for your gun? What if the officer doesn't give you a chance to notify? That just some of the issues. Without extra training, most CCW holders are pretty much equiped with a false sense of security. They have no idea how unprepared they really are to handle a critical, stressful encounter with an attacker. Exactly. I'm sick of this "big stick" mentality going around about carrying a concealed weapon. Its a responsibility to carry. To yourself, your family and society. There are many scenarios where you could end up with a felony and become a detriment to your family. How have you protected anything when you end up thousands in debt and no job prospects all because you wanted to carry that gun only knowing that you can kill someone with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otis Nice Posted November 21, 2013 Report Share Posted November 21, 2013 Without extra training, most CCW holders are pretty much equipped with a false sense of security. DING DING DING! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybe Posted November 21, 2013 Report Share Posted November 21, 2013 (edited) Where is Mojoe x2, I'm interested in your input, since I plan to take the course under you. We know that the responsibility of exercising your 2a right requires a lifetime investment in continuing education. That can't be picked up in one day. But as an qualifying requirement, is 12 hours precisely the right amount of time? It seems like some folks beating the drum are forgetting that there's no law to prohibit, allow, or otherwise muck about with the right to carry open in public spaces so how far apart are the implications of concealed carry? 12 Hours? Edited November 21, 2013 by cybe and then some words. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CRed05 Posted November 21, 2013 Report Share Posted November 21, 2013 I hope this passes the Senate. I think 4 hours is too short, but 12 hours is a bit much. Meet in the middle and make it 8 hours. Still gives you plenty of time to discuss handgun basics, cover the legality and some range time. You're not going to become an expert in 4, 8 or 12 hours. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LPFSTheFett Posted November 21, 2013 Report Share Posted November 21, 2013 I fully support the change. I think the current 12 hour course is a joke. I really don't think anything more than passing the background check and test is needed. Everybody already has the right to open carry, don't really think concealing it should be 'that' much more difficult. Only other thing I'll add, is that some think that taking a 12 hour class is going to make people more knowledgeable. I promise this class isn't going to fix stupid. I don't care how long you make it. You'd be better off with a compentancy test. But of course, the idiots of the world would cry foul. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
87GT Posted November 21, 2013 Report Share Posted November 21, 2013 What else would I possible need to know? Start with the 30 foot rule. Do you know what that is? How quickly can you sit down in a crowded area and remember everyone and what they look like? Try it sometime with another friend. Look around, sit down, close your eyes, and let your friend ask you where certain people are. You should be aware of everyone around you at all times without constantly looking at them. Anyone carrying a concealed weapon needs to perfect this. If someone in your 30 feet bubble makes you feel uneasy for any reason you move away from them. Even if they get offended with you walking away you still do it. You can be a racist that is still alive. That is better than being dead or in prison for breaking a law. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramsey Posted November 21, 2013 Report Share Posted November 21, 2013 The class i went to was very thorough and learned a lot. We went through a lot of scenarios. I read the AG booklet on CCW laws before going to the class and thought i fully understood what i was reading. But, in class we went through it so in-depth i feel so much better about carrying. After the class, i felt motivated to learn more and train more. I also wanted other to do the same. Hopefully the same info can be taught in 4 hours and it motivates people to actually teach and not just fill time for 12 hours. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LJ Posted November 21, 2013 Report Share Posted November 21, 2013 It sounds like the real issue is that there are too many shitty instructors out there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orion Posted November 21, 2013 Report Share Posted November 21, 2013 I would vote NO on the bill, if I was given a vote. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffro Posted November 21, 2013 Report Share Posted November 21, 2013 12 hours here. Wouldnt change it. We had good content up until the end. armed2defend A good portion of that was spent at the range, but there were some people who had never even held a gun before. You want these people walking the streets with a firearm on 4 hours of "training?" ffs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedRocket1647545505 Posted November 21, 2013 Report Share Posted November 21, 2013 I would vote NO on the bill, if I was given a vote. Care to elaborate? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orion Posted November 21, 2013 Report Share Posted November 21, 2013 Care to elaborate? Lol, not really, not on CR. I think it's a bad law. I think it's poorly written, and changes something that does not need changed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedRocket1647545505 Posted November 21, 2013 Report Share Posted November 21, 2013 Lol, not really, not on CR. I think it's a bad law. I think it's poorly written, and changes something that does not need changed. Fair enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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