Trouble Maker Posted May 3, 2017 Report Share Posted May 3, 2017 Didn't tesla get billions in government money? You're reading too much Breitbar, put down the kool-aid son. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exodus Posted May 3, 2017 Author Report Share Posted May 3, 2017 You're reading too much Breitbar, put down the kool-aid son. I was actually asking. I always thought they got billions in government money. Wasn't sure though. Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
o0n8 Posted May 3, 2017 Report Share Posted May 3, 2017 I was actually asking. I always thought they got billions in government money. Wasn't sure though. Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk It's not directly given to them, and it's not with out some strings attached - http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-hy-musk-subsidies-20150531-story.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geeto67 Posted May 3, 2017 Report Share Posted May 3, 2017 I was actually asking. I always thought they got billions in government money. Wasn't sure though. eh...they do and they don't, which is probably the least satisfactory answer. The Federal and State governments don't physically hand over sweaty fistfuls of taxpayer dollars directly to Elon Musk and Tesla just because they are Tesla. Musk's Business model for Tesla, Space X, etc...has been to go where the government(s) is already offering something in exchange for innovation and qualifying for the program. Grants: I believe that while Space X and other ventures have received grants (or as I called it above, sweaty fistfuls of money) Tesla has not received any. This is likely because there were no government grants looking to develop an electric car. Tax Breaks: this is probably the most interesting one because Tesla can (and has) received tax breaks directly from the government in exchange for revitalizing an area or building a factory, but the government can give a tax break to consumers who purchase the type of product Tesla makes, thus incentivizing the market to spend more with them. Discounted Loans: Tesla has received at least one from the DOE for the Advanced Tech vehicle mfg program, for which other auto mfgs have qualified for and received as well. This was a low interest loan available to any mfg making an advanced tech vehicle that met the programs specs, and not there for tesla's benefit. Environmental Credits: Because Tesla makes a product that reduces automotive emissions he qualifies for ZEV credits. Evey automaker gets these, but since Tesla doesn't make a gasoline powered car it has no use for them, so it sells them to other companies that need them to...ahem...cough...pump out more F250 diesels or something like that. Selling these credits makes extra money for the company. So does Tesla get direct government support? very little. Is Tesla really good at understanding government programs available to everyone and how to qualify for them? yes they are. Depending on what side of the political isle you sit on, the government is either bankrolling Tesla through shady programs and Tesla is gaming the system or Tesla is just creating a product that the government wants to encourage and if it were not Tesla it would be another company doing the exact same thing (since other Companies like GM, Honda, and Toyota do exactly the same thing). https://www.fool.com/investing/2016/06/04/this-is-how-little-government-support-tesla-motors.aspx or because this is CR: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exodus Posted May 3, 2017 Author Report Share Posted May 3, 2017 eh...they do and they don't, which is probably the least satisfactory answer. The Federal and State governments don't physically hand over sweaty fistfuls of taxpayer dollars directly to Elon Musk and Tesla just because they are Tesla. Musk's Business model for Tesla, Space X, etc...has been to go where the government(s) is already offering something in exchange for innovation and qualifying for the program. Grants: I believe that while Space X and other ventures have received grants (or as I called it above, sweaty fistfuls of money) Tesla has not received any. This is likely because there were no government grants looking to develop an electric car. Tax Breaks: this is probably the most interesting one because Tesla can (and has) received tax breaks directly from the government in exchange for revitalizing an area or building a factory, but the government can give a tax break to consumers who purchase the type of product Tesla makes, thus incentivizing the market to spend more with them. Discounted Loans: Tesla has received at least one from the DOE for the Advanced Tech vehicle mfg program, for which other auto mfgs have qualified for and received as well. This was a low interest loan available to any mfg making an advanced tech vehicle that met the programs specs, and not there for tesla's benefit. Environmental Credits: Because Tesla makes a product that reduces automotive emissions he qualifies for ZEV credits. Evey automaker gets these, but since Tesla doesn't make a gasoline powered car it has no use for them, so it sells them to other companies that need them to...ahem...cough...pump out more F250 diesels or something like that. Selling these credits makes extra money for the company. So does Tesla get direct government support? very little. Is Tesla really good at understanding government programs available to everyone and how to qualify for them? yes they are. Depending on what side of the political isle you sit on, the government is either bankrolling Tesla through shady programs and Tesla is gaming the system or Tesla is just creating a product that the government wants to encourage and if it were not Tesla it would be another company doing the exact same thing (since other Companies like GM, Honda, and Toyota do exactly the same thing). https://www.fool.com/investing/2016/06/04/this-is-how-little-government-support-tesla-motors.aspx or because this is CR: Thanks for that. I learned something new today. Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trouble Maker Posted May 3, 2017 Report Share Posted May 3, 2017 I was actually asking. I always thought they got billions in government money. Wasn't sure though. I did a really quick googles search and some news articles says 'billions' in overall subsidies for Musk's companies. That includes SpaceX so I'm assuming a big chunk of it is there since we (United States) are essentially offloading part of our space program to them and every dollar we pay them is probably under that umbrella and could easily be called a subsidy. Telsa the car company got a $45x Million loan from the DOE, all of which they paid back. I assume that they probably got a slightly smaller interest rate than they would have through the free market which maybe saved (subsidized) them somewhere in the 100's of thousands of dollar range. So, only a factor of 1,000-10,000 off. Edit: Getttoooooo some # does bring up another good point; tax credits, carbon credits, etc. They probably 'get' quite a bit of money through that.... but any other company is welcome to do what Tesla is doing and 'get' those same things. I think if someone has an issue with any of this money, they need to be upset about the programs and what they are trying to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
o0n8 Posted May 3, 2017 Report Share Posted May 3, 2017 Elio is doing the same thing for their plant in Louisiana by promising to create 1500 jobs. If they don't, they owe the county $7.5 million. It's part of one of the Jalopnik articles in this thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exodus Posted May 4, 2017 Author Report Share Posted May 4, 2017 As ugly and underpowered as the elio may be, I'd still like to get my hands on one for fun. I hope they make it to production. Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShowHBK Posted September 22, 2017 Report Share Posted September 22, 2017 Like a cockroach, this company will simply not die. Where will the CEO vacation too next with Lobbyist money? Vote now on your phones! "Oh please save us Trump Sempai!" http://jalopnik.com/elio-motors-turns-to-lobbyists-because-it-needs-the-tru-1818632607 After 8 years, no pre-production fleet and no production on their 64,000 pre-orders it seriously makes me wonder what this company is up to? How can you possibly go 8 years, amass over 100 million in debt and NOT make something to show the public? for 100 Million, I could have built the damn cars myself by now. Where did all the money go? how is this legal? and how is the CEO not in jail yet? Please someone explain this to me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geeto67 Posted September 22, 2017 Report Share Posted September 22, 2017 (edited) Like a cockroach, this company will simply not die. Where will the CEO vacation too next with Lobbyist money? Vote now on your phones! Just so you know, the company pays lobbyists - not solicits money from them. Why are they paying lobbyists? well your link below explains it: "Oh please save us Trump Sempai!" http://jalopnik.com/elio-motors-turns-to-lobbyists-because-it-needs-the-tru-1818632607 If you want to fault Elio for something it is for being silicon valley tech douches in thinking they were coming up with something new just because they were doing it, when the thing they were doing has been tried to death dozens of times before. In all previous attempts by other companies, there is one thing those companies were not confused about - three wheel vehicles are motorcycles, not cars. They built their business models around that premise because it's easier to work with the way the system is flowing than to have the laws changed. Elio didn't get that memo and really wanted their 3 wheel vehicles to be cars, even though for the last 70 years three wheelers are motorcycles. now if you want to talk how this is further stupidity: well motorcycles don't have to meet crash safety standards, if they get the elio vehicles' classification changed to meet the definition of cars then yes they get access to a pile of grant money, subsidies, and tax incentives, but now they have to meet crash safety standards...oh and polaris, harley, t-rex, can am and a dozen other builders will suddenly have to meet those standards too for the trikes they build, so it's not like they are pushing in a way the industry is going also. After 8 years, no pre-production fleet and no production on their 64,000 pre-orders it seriously makes me wonder what this company is up to? How can you possibly go 8 years, amass over 100 million in debt and NOT make something to show the public? for 100 Million, I could have built the damn cars myself by now. They have plenty to show the public. They have built 8 cars (5 functional prototypes, and 3 evaluation models for required emissions and safety testing. Where did all the money go? how is this legal? and how is the CEO not in jail yet? Please someone explain this to me The short answer is: "Good Faith". What does that mean? well it means competency is not a requirement for a business venture in the US. You can be the dumbest motherfucker alive, but if people gave you money and you acted in "good faith" to make that money into more money, and you didn't because you are the dumbest motherfucker alive, then you have not done anything illegal. Basically, if you intent is to scam people you are a criminal, but if you really intend to built the stupidest looking tadpole trike and you found people that think your idea isn't stupid enough to keep them from giving you money - then have fun turning money into air. so where did the money go? labor. With any startup like this the labor costs are usually the highest, and the problem with labor costs is you can't always point to a physical thing and say here is the fruit of our labor. They hired engineers and designers to design and build the car from nothing (and they built 8), administrative assistants, accountants, sales reps, etc...basically all the things a company needs to operate before there is any revenue rolling in. Then there are the legal fees for things like SEC filings, negotiating and contracting with suppliers, state governments, etc....also more lawyers to defend against lawsuits and represent them in actions like the $500K fine Louisiana levied against them...I mean just talking about it I think the legal fees alone could be tens of millions. Does some of this include CEO compensation? sure - they get paid too, but it isn't illegal to pay the CEO a fair market salary (even if people think CEO salaries are too high in general). and it all comes down to - well their financial statements are public, and so far nobody has filed suit for fraud (and trust me there are shareholders who just look for stuff like this and are ready to file shareholder's derivative suits at any time) so can you prove they are a fraud and not just stupid? my guess is stupid is as far as you are going to get. Personally here is my list of stupid decisions that are not in bad faith or fraud: - Designing their own engine. There are literally hundreds of other small efficient engines they could have sourced, but they had to have their own. Why? All the advantages that come with your own engine are better for a larger company, not a startup. - Going public as a way to raise funds BEFORE you had a product figured out. This is actually quite normal for a lot of industries but in Elio's case going public means you are no accountable to anybody who buys your stock for your stupid decisions - and they can fuck with you if they don't like the decisions you are making by firing people you hire and voting to restrict your power. - taking deposits for a product that hasn't completed certification. Unfortunately this is also common, and it is common for vehicle startups as a source of fund raising. However, elio's small deposit amount was less fundraising and more publicity stunt. Usually things like this have high deposits to weed out the not serious, and to cut down on the number of plaintiffs if you fail - but a $100 deposit? yeah that's a lot of plaintiffs, and I don't think every $100 deposit was going to result in a sale if the car came through anyway. Edited September 22, 2017 by Geeto67 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zeitgeist57 Posted September 22, 2017 Report Share Posted September 22, 2017 So I've been interested in Elio in the past, but definitely off them now. However, if there is a market for this type of vehicle, why hasn't Campagna or Polaris created an enclosed version of their trikes? Srsly, if someone could put a Vintage Air A/C system in an enclosed (or better yet, removable hardtop/convertible) version of a Slingshot, I would think there is additional market share out there to be had. EDIT: Nevermind. I see that they have a hardtop option. Plus, changing it to an enclosed cabin would dramatically affect the styling, with how crazy the thing looks. http://www.carscoops.com/2016/07/polaris-updates-slingshot-range-for.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geeto67 Posted September 22, 2017 Report Share Posted September 22, 2017 However, if there is a market for this type of vehicle, why hasn't Campagna or Polaris created an enclosed version of their trikes? I have to say, someone out there keeps proving there is a need for an enclosed trike but I have no idea who keeps propagating that lie. I don't think an enclosed trike will ever be fuckable and people don't want cars that make them look un-fuckable even if they aren't enthusiasts. The landscape is littered with enclosed trikes going back to the invention of the car, and yet none have ever been all that successful. The most successful I can think of are the Reliant Robin, Messerschmitt KR200, and bmw Isetta. There is a guy here in town with a Trihawk, which was an 80's version of this same concept (but with a convertible soft top). There are like 5 different trikes based off the BEDE5 jet front fuselage alone and none of them have ever made it beyond a couple hundred units. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zeitgeist57 Posted September 26, 2017 Report Share Posted September 26, 2017 https://jalopnik.com/why-this-job-starved-town-thinks-car-startup-elio-motor-1797854222 KILT IT DED. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShowHBK Posted September 27, 2017 Report Share Posted September 27, 2017 https://jalopnik.com/why-this-job-starved-town-thinks-car-startup-elio-motor-1797854222 KILT IT DED. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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