Mr. Jones Posted September 21, 2015 Report Share Posted September 21, 2015 The real problem comes with remediation of the affected vehicles (on top of the fine). As Hyundai and others have been stung, if the cars fail to meet the advertised fuel economy numbers through independent/verified testing POST FLASH, they'll be on the hook to the owners as well and will have to compensate them as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Karacho1647545492 Posted September 21, 2015 Report Share Posted September 21, 2015 The real problem comes with remediation of the affected vehicles (on top of the fine). As Hyundai and others have been stung, if the cars fail to meet the advertised fuel economy numbers through independent/verified testing POST FLASH, they'll be on the hook to the owners as well and will have to compensate them as well. Also very true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron Posted September 21, 2015 Report Share Posted September 21, 2015 The real problem comes with remediation of the affected vehicles (on top of the fine). As Hyundai and others have been stung, if the cars fail to meet the advertised fuel economy numbers through independent/verified testing POST FLASH, they'll be on the hook to the owners as well and will have to compensate them as well. Isn't it stating the exact opposite? They are MORE efficient when not in EPA testing mode? Hence the comments about them exceeding EPA estimates on the regular? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron Posted September 21, 2015 Report Share Posted September 21, 2015 I get that your comment is post flash, but I'm assuming they were tested in their "epa test mode." Maybe I shouldn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Jones Posted September 21, 2015 Report Share Posted September 21, 2015 Isn't it stating the exact opposite? They are MORE efficient when not in EPA testing mode? Hence the comments about them exceeding EPA estimates on the regular? No, The cars produce less NOX emissions when in testing mode (but consume more fuel while doing it) The theory is that he cars would take either a performance hit (less horsepower and same economy) or an economy hit (same power but less economy). Only time will tell the result of the flash, but what is obvious is that the cars will never run the way they did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron Posted September 21, 2015 Report Share Posted September 21, 2015 No, The cars produce less NOX emissions when in testing mode (but consume more fuel while doing it) The theory is that he cars would take either a performance hit (less horsepower and same economy) or an economy hit (same power but less economy). Only time will tell the result of the flash, but what is obvious is that the cars will never run the way they did. The end result is an engine that will pass an EPA engine emissions certification test, but then will recalibrate itself for driving or (ironically) for the EPA mpg test cycle (which is done in chassis without emissions monitoring). Got it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zeitgeist57 Posted September 21, 2015 Report Share Posted September 21, 2015 Glad Aaron's with the program. I read this over lunch to bring me up to speed... http://jalopnik.com/your-guide-to-dieselgate-volkswagens-diesel-cheating-c-1731857018 It's lulzy to me because I'm SURE there are other manufacturers trying the same trick...just haven't gotten caught yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unfunnyryan Posted September 21, 2015 Report Share Posted September 21, 2015 lol https://www.google.com/finance?q=ETR:VOW3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg1647545532 Posted September 21, 2015 Report Share Posted September 21, 2015 Someone who's actually read up on this, how did VW program the computer to realize it was in EPA emissions test mode? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aussiek2000 Posted September 21, 2015 Report Share Posted September 21, 2015 Someone who's actually read up on this, how did VW program the computer to realize it was in EPA emissions test mode? My guess is that the EPA uses a specific "drive cycle" on every car they test. VW taught their cars to recognize this specific set of actions and switch to clean mode IE; drive x mins, idle x mins, stop and go scenario, hard acceleration, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unfunnyryan Posted September 21, 2015 Report Share Posted September 21, 2015 My guess is that the EPA uses a specific "drive cycle" on every car they test. VW taught their cars to recognize this specific set of actions and switch to clean mode IE; drive x mins, idle x mins, stop and go scenario, hard acceleration, etc. Someone who's actually read up on this, how did VW program the computer to realize it was in EPA emissions test mode? Could be less complex than that. Maybe just checking when a code reader is in play, and is monitoring certain variables. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg1647545532 Posted September 21, 2015 Report Share Posted September 21, 2015 My guess is that the EPA uses a specific "drive cycle" on every car they test. VW taught their cars to recognize this specific set of actions and switch to clean mode IE; drive x mins, idle x mins, stop and go scenario, hard acceleration, etc. Seems this is right. The "switch" senses whether the vehicle is being tested or not based on various inputs including the position of the steering wheel, vehicle speed, the duration of the engine's operation, and barometric pressure. These inputs precisely track the parameters of the federal test procedure used for emission testing for EPA certification purposes. During EPA emission testing, the vehicles' ECM [electronic control module] ran software which produced compliant emission results under an ECM calibration that VW referred to as the "dyno calibration" (referring to the equipment used in emission testing, called a dynamometer). At all other times during normal vehicle operation, the "switch" was activated and the vehicle ECM software ran a separate "road calibration" which reduced the effectiveness of the emission control system (specifically the selective catalytic reduction or the lean NOx [nitrous oxides] trap.) As a result, emission of NOx increased by a factor of 10 to 40 times above the EPA compliant levels, depending on the type of drive cycle (e.g. city, highway). edit: From here, quoting the EPAs notice of violation. Apparently they were looking for exactly this sort of thing, and were working with WVU. Cool stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geeto67 Posted September 21, 2015 Report Share Posted September 21, 2015 FWIW emissions testing in NY had to be done with a dyno for years. Any certified shop could do the test as long as they had the dyno. It was a specific map that you drove. Many shops got really good at cheating cars past the NY emissions tests by tuning for the test. As far as I know nobody ever got caught doing this and there were some carb'ed cars that would have never passed without some work. You tune for the test, you pass the test, you reset the tune, and charge the customer 1 hour labor plus the state fee. But VW does it at a mfg level - and it's $18B. Lolz. This country has no idea how to handle vehicle emissions at a federal or state level. At least we can blame the republicans for creating the clusterfuck at the federal level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIGGU Posted September 21, 2015 Report Share Posted September 21, 2015 "The affected cars include VW Jettas, Beetles, Golfs and Audi A3s with diesel engines from the 2009 to 2015 model years, along with diesel VW Passats from 2014-2015." 2010 falls right after 2009, FYI. Derp. have to have actual fucks to give on the whole emissions deal. no emissions here... Don't those have actual issues though? Cam lobes and fuel pumps exploding? nope, not to the owners that are not idiots... basiclly the people that had the cam/ fuel pump issues were getting shit diesel. I always throw extra fuel additive in the tank to make sure the lubrication is always up to snuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallard Posted September 21, 2015 Report Share Posted September 21, 2015 The real problem comes with remediation of the affected vehicles (on top of the fine). As Hyundai and others have been stung, if the cars fail to meet the advertised fuel economy numbers through independent/verified testing POST FLASH, they'll be on the hook to the owners as well and will have to compensate them as well. It's even worse than that...not only are they on the hook with the EPA, but the fix is going give owners worse performance and fuel economy, so who would get it done? Not only will they have to give owners compensation for hurting resale and not living up to claims, but they will also have to give incentives to have the recall done or else face fines from th government for low fix rates. Their stock dropped 20% today. Waiting for Sergio to buy a controlling stake in 3, 2, 1... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Jones Posted September 21, 2015 Report Share Posted September 21, 2015 Their stock dropped 20% today. Waiting for Sergio to buy a controlling stake in 3, 2, 1... :lolguy: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallard Posted September 22, 2015 Report Share Posted September 22, 2015 [emoji38]guy: Don't laugh...they were the front runner in my head from the start, for multiple reasons. With this, the tables may turn and FCA would be in the drivers seat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Das Borgen Posted September 22, 2015 Report Share Posted September 22, 2015 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Jones Posted September 22, 2015 Report Share Posted September 22, 2015 ^ LOL You made a funny on CR!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Das Borgen Posted September 22, 2015 Report Share Posted September 22, 2015 ^ LOL You made a funny on CR!!! Check in the lol thread for the Hitler VW EPA spoof video I posted Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unfunnyryan Posted September 22, 2015 Report Share Posted September 22, 2015 new permanent wall art http://i.imgur.com/7YzHt60l.jpg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RS69 Posted September 22, 2015 Report Share Posted September 22, 2015 (edited) To me this is sad, I was onboard with more diesel options becoming available but this is probably the nail in the coffin for diesels. I agree in regards to automobiles, not trucks. We own a 2014 Passet diesel and it does get great mileage and now we know why.... I am upset they cheated with the EPA, but it is still a great car and may have a lower resale value in future. That doesn't matter to me, since we will drive it for many years. I will need to find a good mechanic/tuner for future work since my car will not be going to any dealership for any future warranty upgrades that could hurt the fuel economy. Edited October 14, 2015 by RS69 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berto Posted September 22, 2015 Report Share Posted September 22, 2015 Looks like the diagnostic mode is turned on when the front wheels are turning but the rears are not. aka on a dyno. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gillbot Posted September 23, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 23, 2015 No emissions testing in Ohio, other than a select few counties. Testing in Ohio was a fucking joke. I took my festiva in for a fail so I could get a ttag. They put it on the roller smoking like a freight train and it filled the building with smoke so bad they had to open all the doors to air it out, it passed....... My Camaro would make your eyes burn it was so rich, it passed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jewtoys Posted September 23, 2015 Report Share Posted September 23, 2015 Testing in Ohio was a fucking joke. I took my festiva in for a fail so I could get a ttag. They put it on the roller smoking like a freight train and it filled the building with smoke so bad they had to open all the doors to air it out, it passed....... My Camaro would make your eyes burn it was so rich, it passed. Yeah it was a complete joke, I've seen many cars pass without cats and running like death Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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