Geeto67 Posted December 4, 2015 Report Share Posted December 4, 2015 If you don't know how to use your gun or have solid training, you will. So yes, you would have your own gun used on you if you don't know what the hell you are doing. I will make sure to mention this at the next security guard, armored car officer, or police officer funeral I attend where he or she was shot with their own or a co-worker's weapon. It happens more often than you think. And yes, one has been stopped: http://www.cnn.com/2015/05/03/us/mohammed-drawing-contest-shooting/ from your own link: "Police who were helping with security at the event fired back, killing both gunmen." Police are not dipshits with CCW permits - they are highly trained professionals. Let's get this out of the way right now - unless you are active military or currently a police officer you are not "trained". Maybe if you were ex police or military and you kept your same training regime in civilian life you can maybe say that you are fully trained in conflict resolution though force. Other than that you are kidding yourself. What passes for civilian "gun training" in this country is mostly to keep you from blowing your pecker off because you think it is cool to carry in your waste-band. Seriously more goes into this kind of training than just point the front toward the target and keep your grouping close, there is psychological evaluation and training, constant review of verbal communication skills, etc.... I really think you sell law enforcement short if you think your twice a week at rage prepares you for a situation that requires you to use your firearm in self defense. It never happens. http://controversialtimes.com/issues...uys-with-guns/ In about half of these the individuals "fighting back" were ex-military, police trained, or active security guards. Also in some of them the "rampage" had already stopped because the initial shooter had run out of ammunition or otherwise surrendered. Convenient of the highly inflammatory conservative website to leave details like that out. I will trade you one batshit conservative site for one batshit liberal site invalidating all of what you say: http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/12/armed-civilians-do-not-stop-mass-shootings But there is something else to ponder. I wonder how many people that think "they will have the answer for when trouble comes looking" consider that that upon drawing that firearm they are equally as likely a target for any Law enforcement as the original shooter. You know what LEO's hate? People firing guns in public. All people. They really don't have time or want to consider who is the "good guy" vigilante and who is the "bad guy" original shooter. you know when they figure that out? at the station after you have surrendered, or in the corner's office after they have put a nice tight grouping in your chest. Oh and by the way I am pretty sure being a vigilante is also a crime. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jewtoys Posted December 4, 2015 Report Share Posted December 4, 2015 Because in the situation you described, it would only escalate it, probably with an unfavorable outcome. Especially considering a gun is already pointed at me, when you'd want me to try to quick draw McGraw the guy... Carrying a gun doesn't mean you'd have an answer to every situation. If that guy wanted my wallet, he'd have it, and hopefully be gone. If it went somewhere else, then I'd have to make a decision from there, but it certainly wouldn't be trying to draw on a gun in your face. Exactly my point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jewtoys Posted December 4, 2015 Report Share Posted December 4, 2015 I will make sure to mention this at the next security guard, armored car officer, or police officer funeral I attend where he or she was shot with their own or a co-worker's weapon. It happens more often than you think. from your own link: "Police who were helping with security at the event fired back, killing both gunmen." Police are not dipshits with CCW permits - they are highly trained professionals. Let's get this out of the way right now - unless you are active military or currently a police officer you are not "trained". Maybe if you were ex police or military and you kept your same training regime in civilian life you can maybe say that you are fully trained in conflict resolution though force. Other than that you are kidding yourself. What passes for civilian "gun training" in this country is mostly to keep you from blowing your pecker off because you think it is cool to carry in your waste-band. Seriously more goes into this kind of training than just point the front toward the target and keep your grouping close, there is psychological evaluation and training, constant review of verbal communication skills, etc.... I really think you sell law enforcement short if you think your twice a week at rage prepares you for a situation that requires you to use your firearm in self defense. In about half of these the individuals "fighting back" were ex-military, police trained, or active security guards. Also in some of them the "rampage" had already stopped because the initial shooter had run out of ammunition or otherwise surrendered. Convenient of the highly inflammatory conservative website to leave details like that out. I will trade you one batshit conservative site for one batshit liberal site invalidating all of what you say: http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/12/armed-civilians-do-not-stop-mass-shootings But there is something else to ponder. I wonder how many people that think "they will have the answer for when trouble comes looking" consider that that upon drawing that firearm they are equally as likely a target for any Law enforcement as the original shooter. You know what LEO's hate? People firing guns in public. All people. They really don't have time or want to consider who is the "good guy" vigilante and who is the "bad guy" original shooter. you know when they figure that out? at the station after you have surrendered, or in the corner's office after they have put a nice tight grouping in your chest. Oh and by the way I am pretty sure being a vigilante is also a crime. My first thought when I see photos of dipshits walking around with Rifles on their back. Take a stab at who will be the first with a bullet to the back of their dome? :lolguy: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HotCarl Posted December 4, 2015 Report Share Posted December 4, 2015 http://controversialtimes.com/issues/constitutional-rights/12-times-mass-shootings-were-stopped-by-good-guys-with-guns/ Not sure I agree with everything but just providing the link I assume you were talking about. Oh I absolutely agree, you have to consider your source on any information about gun violence (with anything really). Unfortunately I doubt you'll see the AP do a cover piece on the advantages to citizens carrying firearms in public. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geeto67 Posted December 4, 2015 Report Share Posted December 4, 2015 If the security firm you worked for lost their firearms in 30% of altercations with aggressors your security firm fucking sucks. that wasn't the firm that was a national average for security professionals and it included things like bank and armored car robberies, hostage situations, and also considered deaths of fellow guards by their co-workers fire arm in the mix. It's one of those things they tell you to highlight that the gun is not a crutch - it is at best a complete last resort. It was also their training material and I don't know the source so dubious at best, but it always stuck with me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sol740 Posted December 4, 2015 Report Share Posted December 4, 2015 I don't know many CCW holders, but the few I do know always have that billy badass attitude, and always talk about "when something goes down" I don't have any issues with someone carrying, it's your right to do so, Just doesn't make any sense to me, if I ever felt the need to walk out of my house with a gun, it would be time to move for me. I understand and respect your point of view, I simply disagree. If we ever meet you will have met someone who carries regularly, if not daily, and absolutely detests the idea of ever having to use it for defense. There is an unfair stereotype of the "gun nut" who is so paranoid about boogeymen that he can't function and is constantly in fear of attack. As someone who carries so regularly, I can attest that this is not often true. I never think about my having a firearm, I just do. The same way I have my wallet, or keys, it just goes with me. I'm not dwelling on it, or having adolescent power fantasies about being a hero. If I have to leave it behind it does annoy me, but that is relatively rare, and sadly, almost exclusively in places where mass shootings typically occur. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geeto67 Posted December 4, 2015 Report Share Posted December 4, 2015 Unfortunately I doubt you'll see the AP do a cover piece on the advantages to citizens carrying firearms in public. you won't see the Associated Press do a piece like that because they don't publish op-ed pieces. That's the job of pundits and the op-ed sections of the NYT and WSJ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HotCarl Posted December 4, 2015 Report Share Posted December 4, 2015 In about half of these the individuals "fighting back" were ex-military, police trained, or active security guards. Also in some of them the "rampage" had already stopped because the initial shooter had run out of ammunition or otherwise surrendered. Convenient of the highly inflammatory conservative website to leave details like that out. I will trade you one batshit conservative site for one batshit liberal site invalidating all of what you say: http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/12/armed-civilians-do-not-stop-mass-shootings But there is something else to ponder. I wonder how many people that think "they will have the answer for when trouble comes looking" consider that that upon drawing that firearm they are equally as likely a target for any Law enforcement as the original shooter. You know what LEO's hate? People firing guns in public. All people. They really don't have time or want to consider who is the "good guy" vigilante and who is the "bad guy" original shooter. you know when they figure that out? at the station after you have surrendered, or in the corner's office after they have put a nice tight grouping in your chest. Oh and by the way I am pretty sure being a vigilante is also a crime. I'm not advocating vigilantism, or even the "ramdo attitude" that some CCW license holders possess. You've clearly missed the entire point of my comment. I'm saying you're making broad, sweeping indictments that NO mass killings have been prevented by law abiding citizens with their privately owned firearms and this is simply wrong. Its hard enough to speak in absolutes but when you do so about something you have no data to backup you just look like an ass. Stories with good, positive endings are not newsworthy. They will not gain headlines and will not get 'clicks' on websites. Tragedy, death, and anything that touches the public nerve of a popular debate get traction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hwilli1647545487 Posted December 4, 2015 Report Share Posted December 4, 2015 FYI the OPOTA yearly qualification course is a 25 round string of fire. This is the only time they are required to train with and fire their guns. A passing score is 20 of 25 shots. The majority of military personal do not train with handguns, and those that I have worked with have had to be retrained from scratch. While I won't comment on the skill level of the average CCW holder, the myth that Police and Military have an exponentially higher skill set simply is not true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EssFo Posted December 4, 2015 Report Share Posted December 4, 2015 FYI the OPOTA yearly qualification course is a 25 round string of fire. This is the only time they are required to train with and fire their guns. A passing score is 20 of 25 shots. The majority of military personal do not train with handguns, and those that I have worked with have had to be retrained from scratch. While I won't comment on the skill level of the average CCW holder, the myth that Police and Military have an exponentially higher skill set simply is not true. I was just about to comment. I'm LOL'ing at "highly trained". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wagner Posted December 4, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 4, 2015 I will make sure to mention this at the next security guard, armored car officer, or police officer funeral I attend where he or she was shot with their own or a co-worker's weapon. It happens more often than you think. from your own link: "Police who were helping with security at the event fired back, killing both gunmen." Police are not dipshits with CCW permits - they are highly trained professionals. Let's get this out of the way right now - unless you are active military or currently a police officer you are not "trained". Maybe if you were ex police or military and you kept your same training regime in civilian life you can maybe say that you are fully trained in conflict resolution though force. Other than that you are kidding yourself. What passes for civilian "gun training" in this country is mostly to keep you from blowing your pecker off because you think it is cool to carry in your waste-band. Seriously more goes into this kind of training than just point the front toward the target and keep your grouping close, there is psychological evaluation and training, constant review of verbal communication skills, etc.... I really think you sell law enforcement short if you think your twice a week at rage prepares you for a situation that requires you to use your firearm in self defense. In about half of these the individuals "fighting back" were ex-military, police trained, or active security guards. Also in some of them the "rampage" had already stopped because the initial shooter had run out of ammunition or otherwise surrendered. Convenient of the highly inflammatory conservative website to leave details like that out. I will trade you one batshit conservative site for one batshit liberal site invalidating all of what you say: http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/12/armed-civilians-do-not-stop-mass-shootings But there is something else to ponder. I wonder how many people that think "they will have the answer for when trouble comes looking" consider that that upon drawing that firearm they are equally as likely a target for any Law enforcement as the original shooter. You know what LEO's hate? People firing guns in public. All people. They really don't have time or want to consider who is the "good guy" vigilante and who is the "bad guy" original shooter. you know when they figure that out? at the station after you have surrendered, or in the corner's office after they have put a nice tight grouping in your chest. Oh and by the way I am pretty sure being a vigilante is also a crime. Do you have a permit to carry, or had the training from a certified person in the state of ohio, or any place for that matter? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geeto67 Posted December 4, 2015 Report Share Posted December 4, 2015 I'm not advocating vigilantism, or even the "ramdo attitude" that some CCW license holders possess. You've clearly missed the entire point of my comment. I'm saying you're making broad, sweeping indictments that NO mass killings have been prevented by law abiding citizens with their privately owned firearms and this is simply wrong. Its hard enough to speak in absolutes but when you do so about something you have no data to backup you just look like an ass. Stories with good, positive endings are not newsworthy. They will not gain headlines and will not get 'clicks' on websites. Tragedy, death, and anything that touches the public nerve of a popular debate get traction. Then let me revise - show me 1 where the individual was not ex-military, law enforcement, or security and where the shooter did not run out of ammo or otherwise surrender. In my head I was thinking job blow CCW permit holder with no military or LE training but it came out as "anybody", so that is my bad. I find it hard to accept your last point about stopping a shooting through force being both a good positive ending and not newsworthy. Maybe if it was done without any violence it is good but it is still newsworthy, that's why they still print stories about kids getting caught with guns in school before anything happens. Also there is national news and local news. the overwhelming majority of violent news stories tend to be local not national unless they are really a spectacle. there are plenty of gun violent related crimes in NYC every day - if the NY Times reported about half of them that would fill the whole paper everyday. how many do you hear about in Ohio? probably almost none - even in the internet age. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jewtoys Posted December 4, 2015 Report Share Posted December 4, 2015 On a more serious note, WTF is this? What a disaster. http://news.yahoo.com/reporters-inexplicably-stampede-san-bernardino-shooter-s-home-182218908.html# Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wagner Posted December 4, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 4, 2015 On a more serious note, WTF is this? What a disaster. http://news.yahoo.com/reporters-inexplicably-stampede-san-bernardino-shooter-s-home-182218908.html# Dude, that is nuts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyM3rC Posted December 4, 2015 Report Share Posted December 4, 2015 What if I told you, that just in little old OHIO there are over 400,000 CHL holders? It's extremely likely the vast majority of people carrying concealed you pass everyday on the street, in traffic, at the store, etc and never know. Because CONCEALED. Unless you make a habit of asking every person "hey bro, you licensed? how'd you score in your last shooting test? how about weak hand? nice splits bro" but I've met you multiple times and I don't you remembering you asking me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron Posted December 4, 2015 Report Share Posted December 4, 2015 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TTQ B4U Posted December 4, 2015 Report Share Posted December 4, 2015 that wasn't the firm that was a national average for security professionals and it included things like bank and armored car robberies, hostage situations, and also considered deaths of fellow guards by their co-workers fire arm in the mix. It's one of those things they tell you to highlight that the gun is not a crutch - it is at best a complete last resort. It was also their training material and I don't know the source so dubious at best, but it always stuck with me. I think there's a difference to be considered though. In the cases of your firm, the bad guys knew and expected them to be armed. No so much with the average Joe. A guy I work at Easton was headed home on Monday, filled up with gas off Morse Rd. He noticed a group of young teens as he walked in. Broke a $50 getting smokes and as he walked out was confronted by two of them. One asked if he had a few bucks to spare. He said "no" and tried to walk past but as he did he jumped a step to the left as he noticed the other guy was pulling something out from his backside and moving to block his path towards his car. As he stepped over he drew his .40 cal from his waste. He kept it pointed downward but once he saw the kids knife he raised the gun and yelled for help and made a ton of noise as he yelled what was happening. The boys turned and took off. He clearly could have dropped the kid, and whether you agree with his exact actions or not, in his case he was aware and prepared and within his rights. That kid could have simply stabbed him and taken his money, gun or worse. Just sharing as while there are times where bad things happen, it's also comforting to know that you have more than just a fist to defend yourself. My friend was still shaken and took the rest of this week off work. He's also going to retake some classes to insure he's more prepared. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron Posted December 4, 2015 Report Share Posted December 4, 2015 I think there's a difference to be considered though. In the cases of your firm, the bad guys knew and expected them to be armed. No so much with the average Joe. A guy I work at Easton was headed home on Monday, filled up with gas off Morse Rd. He noticed a group of young teens as he walked in. Broke a $50 getting smokes and as he walked out was confronted by two of them. One asked if he had a few bucks to spare. He said "no" and tried to walk past but as he did he jumped a step to the left as he noticed the other guy was pulling something out from his backside and moving to block his path towards his car. As he stepped over he drew his .40 cal from his waste. He kept it pointed downward but once he saw the kids knife he raised the gun and yelled for help and made a ton of noise as he yelled what was happening. The boys turned and took off. He clearly could have dropped the kid, and whether you agree with his exact actions or not, in his case he was aware and prepared and within his rights. That kid could have simply stabbed him and taken his money, gun or worse. Just sharing as while there are times where bad things happen, it's also comforting to know that you have more than just a fist to defend yourself. My friend was still shaken and took the rest of this week off work. He's also going to retake some classes to insure he's more prepared. That's such a statistical improbability, why worry about it though... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geeto67 Posted December 4, 2015 Report Share Posted December 4, 2015 Do you have a permit to carry, or had the training from a certified person in the state of ohio, or any place for that matter? I do not have a permit to carry in Ohio. Have I had a permit to carry other places? yes. I have in the past had jobs that required me to have firearm training. I am currently trying to help a friend get a GCA mfg license because he want's to start making handmade lemat revolvers (it's a new orleans thing). How this is relevant, I have no idea other than you want to try an invalidate my opinion that civilian training isn't up the same standards as military or Law Enforcement training and oversight which is pointless because it is just not. Do you have mandatory conflict resolution training in your life? Do you have ready access to mental health professionals as part of your routine? When I was in the Fire department if we even came into contact with a severely wounded or deceased victim we had mandatory counseling and I was a volunteer. that kind of service doesn't come with a CCW permit. To me a gun is an extremely fun and inefficient way to put holes in paper. And like anything mechanical it's fun to geek out over the engineering, or the history, or the metal craft. and since it's very hard to reason with a bear it's probably a good tool to have camping. All this self defense crap? the odds just are not in your favor. Do I carry? no. no point. Do I respect other's right to carry? if the law supports it yes. But that isn't going to stop me from having the opinion that some people's reasons are irrational justification. it's an opinion, so what. I'll turn this around though....how many times have you actually had to defend yourself from a violent crime? not job related I can think of 3 times (two muggings and a bar fight). 1 I was young and stupid and put my self in that situation but learned from it, 2 were unavoidable based on environment. you know what? no gun. I am still here. Even job related I have hours upon hours of verbal conflict resolution and not one gun related incident. I have been stabbed in the hand twice but we aren't talking about knife violence. your turn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
schmuckingham Posted December 4, 2015 Report Share Posted December 4, 2015 FYI the OPOTA yearly qualification course is a 25 round string of fire. This is the only time they are required to train with and fire their guns. A passing score is 20 of 25 shots. The majority of military personal do not train with handguns, and those that I have worked with have had to be retrained from scratch. While I won't comment on the skill level of the average CCW holder, the myth that Police and Military have an exponentially higher skill set simply is not true. I have taken my fair share of courses where LE or .mil guys look like they might be the ones about to shoot their pecker off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geeto67 Posted December 4, 2015 Report Share Posted December 4, 2015 I think there's a difference to be considered though. In the cases of your firm, the bad guys knew and expected them to be armed. No so much with the average Joe. A guy I work at Easton was headed home on Monday, filled up with gas off Morse Rd. He noticed a group of young teens as he walked in. Broke a $50 getting smokes and as he walked out was confronted by two of them. One asked if he had a few bucks to spare. He said "no" and tried to walk past but as he did he jumped a step to the left as he noticed the other guy was pulling something out from his backside and moving to block his path towards his car. As he stepped over he drew his .40 cal from his waste. He kept it pointed downward but once he saw the kids knife he raised the gun and yelled for help and made a ton of noise as he yelled what was happening. The boys turned and took off. He clearly could have dropped the kid, and whether you agree with his exact actions or not, in his case he was aware and prepared and within his rights. That kid could have simply stabbed him and taken his money, gun or worse. Just sharing as while there are times where bad things happen, it's also comforting to know that you have more than just a fist to defend yourself. My friend was still shaken and took the rest of this week off work. He's also going to retake some classes to insure he's more prepared. Good for him. However, he got exactly what he wanted: the ability to scare himself by being in a bad situation and using the threat of force to protect the change from a $50. Don't get me wrong, I really feel for your friend and I am sorry he was in that situation at all - it sucks. But it's kind of my point, most people don't realize the post situation ramifications, they think as far as possibly surviving the event and that's it. If he's that rattled post event, he should seek counseling as he now probably understands the responsibility better and may have a lot to think about. Could the kid have stabbed him? yeah. Could the kid have threatened him with the knife and then shit his drawers when he was defiant? also yes. Could he have just handed over his wallet and they all went away? yes again. Could he have seen a group of questionable looking kids in a sketchy neighborhood and picked another gas station? yup. but none of these things happened. What did happen is he got lucky. He tested the kid's resolve to do him physical harm and the kid chose not to test his commitment to use the firearm. it worked out in the best possible way against the odds that it wouldn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geeto67 Posted December 4, 2015 Report Share Posted December 4, 2015 FYI the OPOTA yearly qualification course is a 25 round string of fire. This is the only time they are required to train with and fire their guns. A passing score is 20 of 25 shots. The majority of military personal do not train with handguns, and those that I have worked with have had to be retrained from scratch. While I won't comment on the skill level of the average CCW holder, the myth that Police and Military have an exponentially higher skill set simply is not true. when you are talking simply bullets into targets, I agree. But that is not the sum total of training that goes into conflict resolution, strategy, fitness, mental health...etc....If your justification for a CCW is conflict resolution in self defense situations and you don't have any of the other training pieces to the puzzle, you only have one tool out of the many you need. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wagner Posted December 4, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 4, 2015 I do not have a permit to carry in Ohio. Have I had a permit to carry other places? yes. I have in the past had jobs that required me to have firearm training. I am currently trying to help a friend get a GCA mfg license because he want's to start making handmade lemat revolvers (it's a new orleans thing). How this is relevant, I have no idea other than you want to try an invalidate my opinion that civilian training isn't up the same standards as military or Law Enforcement training and oversight which is pointless because it is just not. Do you have mandatory conflict resolution training in your life? Do you have ready access to mental health professionals as part of your routine? When I was in the Fire department if we even came into contact with a severely wounded or deceased victim we had mandatory counseling and I was a volunteer. that kind of service doesn't come with a CCW permit. To me a gun is an extremely fun and inefficient way to put holes in paper. And like anything mechanical it's fun to geek out over the engineering, or the history, or the metal craft. and since it's very hard to reason with a bear it's probably a good tool to have camping. All this self defense crap? the odds just are not in your favor. Do I carry? no. no point. Do I respect other's right to carry? if the law supports it yes. But that isn't going to stop me from having the opinion that some people's reasons are irrational justification. it's an opinion, so what. I'll turn this around though....how many times have you actually had to defend yourself from a violent crime? not job related I can think of 3 times (two muggings and a bar fight). 1 I was young and stupid and put my self in that situation but learned from it, 2 were unavoidable based on environment. you know what? no gun. I am still here. Even job related I have hours upon hours of verbal conflict resolution and not one gun related incident. I have been stabbed in the hand twice but we aren't talking about knife violence. your turn. It is 100% relevant, because if your the person training you was worth a damn, they would have got though what to do if you actually have to use your weapon, why you should NEVER use your weapon on unless you are in direct danger, and how to deal with LEO after the fact if you have to use or draw your weapon. If you're getting your ass beat in the kroger parking lot, guess what I'm not pulling my gun to help you buddy. I'll call 911, I'll tell the dude to back off, but I'm not the law and I'm not going to jail because someone else is an asshole. So now you want to turn it on me huh? I too was very young and more stupid than most. Had a knife pulled on me in college at a party, that was fun. Had to defend myself in a bar fight after I was sucker punched with my backed turned as I was walking away from the conflict. So yeah, been there, done that not impressed. I've had work place violence too working the door at a bar, never had anything to defend myself but a stick or my mind, and I"m still here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron Posted December 4, 2015 Report Share Posted December 4, 2015 I heard rymer has been shot 17 times, stabbed, 11 times, hit with an iron 3 times, the ironing board only once ironically, and hit with a grapefruit a remarkable 48 times. I heard he is still here too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wagner Posted December 4, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 4, 2015 I heard rymer has been shot 17 times, stabbed, 11 times, hit with an iron 3 times, the ironing board only once ironically, and hit with a grapefruit a remarkable 48 times. I heard he is still here too. Brian Willams was there, so its true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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