ShowHBK Posted February 13, 2017 Report Share Posted February 13, 2017 Very sad to hear news like this. I often wonder how much classroom time is spent with these people before they handle supercars with insane amounts of horsepower. Much is up to speculation, but I would be interested to know if this incident was caused by driver error, instructor error, or mechanical fault... No mater how you slice it, it's very sad to hear. Having never been instructed by a "professional", I would always be scared to punch the throttle in any of these cars without plenty of instruction and track time. http://www.reviewjournal.com/local/2-die-fiery-crash-speedvegas-racetrack http://jalopnik.com/racing-instructor-and-student-killed-in-fiery-track-day-1792294047 Read an article last week about a young kid driving a McLaren with an instructor. He lost control, popped a curve, and destroyed the suspension on all 4 sides. The instructor was 100% to blame in my opinion after watching the video. He let the kid drive with one hand at high speeds and then tells him "gas gas gas, it's your last chance" on the last corner and the kid lost control as a result. You have to boost the audio a little bit... but you can hear him tell the kid to give it more gas before the crash. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BStowers023 Posted February 13, 2017 Report Share Posted February 13, 2017 Very sad. Unfortunately that's a risk a lot of us take with having a high interest in cars, particularly fast cars. Street, strip or track, the risk is always there. You hate to hear about this though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_buster Posted February 13, 2017 Report Share Posted February 13, 2017 Just like the accident that happened at the Disney Exotic Driving location. Multiple things that happened there, but it was the "last straw" so to speak, that helped them decide to close down the facility. I only drove the GTR and it scared me if i punched it coming into the straight. Couldn't imagine driving the nascar experience with all the power they have. We had a 45 minute class I believe, 15 of that was a video showing braking zones and explaining apex and when to gas and not gas. Then it was here's a helmet lets go! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robochan Posted February 13, 2017 Report Share Posted February 13, 2017 Ill be instructing for the first time this year and this doesnt help my confidence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShowHBK Posted February 13, 2017 Author Report Share Posted February 13, 2017 We had a 45 minute class I believe, 15 of that was a video showing braking zones and explaining apex and when to gas and not gas. Then it was here's a helmet lets go! To me, that's crazy! I know that Mid-Ohio has a 3 day racing program you can enroll in, but they provide you with the Acura ILX with just over ~200 and some odd HP. Yes I know they are modified, but to think that for ~$100 USD and in just 45 minutes Jim Bob from Idaho can drive a Lamborghini at over 150 MPH is just insane to me. Why not more instruction time? or why not more emphasis on the fundamentals or technique? Yes, Everyone wants to go fast... I get it... but I feel these places should force you to pass a test or work at low speed for free before paying to go really fast. I remember about a year or two ago Motor Trend let the Roadkill guys do a competition with a bunch of normal people and one of the last challenges was to run an autocross course with a Viper ACR. They were given a choice to do three laps with a professional and learn the car with an instructor... or hop in the driver seat blind with no training, but in compensation be allowed to do as many burn outs as they wanted after the shooting... NOT A SINGLE PERSON choose to drive with the instructor.... I guess going fast with always win, haha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_buster Posted February 13, 2017 Report Share Posted February 13, 2017 Im surprised they are equipped similar to a drivers ed car, where the instructor has a brake pedal or other form of control. All they had in my car was a dial control to reduce power. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dsm_sleeper Posted February 13, 2017 Report Share Posted February 13, 2017 That is why I have very little interest in instructing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mojoe Posted February 13, 2017 Report Share Posted February 13, 2017 Very sad to hear this. I had a great instructor when I was there in 2014. The P1's we broken, so I went int he 458. I have done a few track days, with and without coaching. For the level of car I was driving, $300K+, I was very pleased with how they did things. I'm sure they get all levels of easy and hard to work with people through there. Won't embed, but this was my sesson there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tinman Posted February 14, 2017 Report Share Posted February 14, 2017 Im surprised they are equipped similar to a drivers ed car, where the instructor has a brake pedal or other form of control. All they had in my car was a dial control to reduce power. When a car begins to get out of control at track speeds, the last thing you want to do is apply any kind of braking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BStowers023 Posted February 14, 2017 Report Share Posted February 14, 2017 Very sad to hear this. I had a great instructor when I was there in 2014. The P1's we broken, so I went int he 458. I have done a few track days, with and without coaching. For the level of car I was driving, $300K+, I was very pleased with how they did things. I'm sure they get all levels of easy and hard to work with people through there. Won't embed, but this was my sesson there. Fuck I would hate someone talking into my ear the whole time. I know it's their job and they're "instructing" you but damn, I feel like it'd be hard to concentrate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mojoe Posted February 14, 2017 Report Share Posted February 14, 2017 Fuck I would hate someone talking into my ear the whole time. I know it's their job and they're "instructing" you but damn, I feel like it'd be hard to concentrate I sounds bad in the vid. But, what he was saying was pretty spot on. There really is that much going on the whole time. And like I said, they don't know what you do or don't know. So someone saying they were coaching too much is their worst case. Vs someone saying they didn't get the guidance needed and crashed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokey Posted February 14, 2017 Report Share Posted February 14, 2017 Ill be instructing for the first time this year and this doesnt help my confidence. With whom? If you get the chance to do the PCA national instructor school it's very good, and helps prepare for difficult students. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShowHBK Posted February 14, 2017 Author Report Share Posted February 14, 2017 I sounds bad in the vid. But, what he was saying was pretty spot on. There really is that much going on the whole time. And like I said, they don't know what you do or don't know. So someone saying they were coaching too much is their worst case. Vs someone saying they didn't get the guidance needed and crashed. I was going to post agreeing with how the instructor was talking to much... but You make a good point... TOO MUCH information is never a bad thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robochan Posted February 14, 2017 Report Share Posted February 14, 2017 With whom? If you get the chance to do the PCA national instructor school it's very good, and helps prepare for difficult students. Gridlife and planning on autointrests but haven't scheduled events yet with them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokey Posted February 14, 2017 Report Share Posted February 14, 2017 Gridlife and planning on autointrests but haven't scheduled events yet with them. See if you can get a copy of the PCA materials for instructor training. I used to have physical copies but there might be electronic ones out there. Also read Ross Bentley's instructor manifesto. Those will get you started in the correct direction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EssFo Posted February 14, 2017 Report Share Posted February 14, 2017 The first HPDE day I attended (ever) at Mid Ohio you had a 20 minute meeting and a warm up lap (instructor was optional) and then you can have at it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mojoe Posted February 14, 2017 Report Share Posted February 14, 2017 I was going to post agreeing with how the instructor was talking to much... but You make a good point... TOO MUCH information is never a bad thing. Communicating is a daily frustration to me. Being an instructor, the very start point of getting your info to the student is finding a way to say it or do it, that makes it click for them. The more experience they have in doing what is being taught, the verbiage make more sense to them. First timers, or one hit wonders (someone who is only going to do it one time), almost have to be treated the same way. You don't know, and you are reading them to see if what you are saying is registering. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AudiOn19s Posted February 14, 2017 Report Share Posted February 14, 2017 Communicating is a daily frustration to me. Being an instructor, the very start point of getting your info to the student is finding a way to say it or do it, that makes it click for them. The more experience they have in doing what is being taught, the verbiage make more sense to them. First timers, or one hit wonders (someone who is only going to do it one time), almost have to be treated the same way. You don't know, and you are reading them to see if what you are saying is registering. +1. Joe - I think the instructor you had for Exotics racing was FANTASTIC. Everything he said was spot on, he kept emphasizing where to look, being easy on the inputs, braking in a straight line, balancing the car with brakes and throttle, touching the paint for proper car placement...he really was MUCH better than I'd expect to get in that setting. at PCA events we've got a little more time to go over some of that stuff in detail so it doesn't all get condensed into one speech before we got out but once on the track it's a constant flow of information just like the instructor in your video. We basically try to make a cadence that is consistent lap after lap. By the end of the weekend we want the student to be able to speak it back to us as he's performing the actions instead of relying on us to keep saying the message over and over again. You'd be amazed how many still can't do it at the end of their first weekend. The end goal is to get everyone to subconsciously walk through that same cadence every single lap they drive without even thinking about it. It's good practice every once in awhile to say it out loud as a reminder for anything you might be forgetting. It's a highly effective practice even when muscle memory has taken over Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg1647545532 Posted February 14, 2017 Report Share Posted February 14, 2017 You have to boost the audio a little bit... but you can hear him tell the kid to give it more gas before the crash. I'm not going to defend Mr. No-Helmet, but just as a general observation, there's very little an instructor can do once things actually start to go south. The real defense is forcing good habits from lap 1, so that things won't go south. Eyes up, brake straight, turn in late, reiterated constantly and especially at the first sign of an early apex. A close 4th would be "don't lift mid-corner, and dear god please don't hit the brakes mid-corner." The big hurdle is that our brains scream, "We'll never make this corner, I need to start turning now!" and then, "We'll never make this corner at this speed, I need to slow down now!" I've found that spending the first several laps constantly calling every single braking point, turn-in point, apex, and track-out point goes a long way in resetting what's "normal" to the brain, much faster and safer than letting new students sort it out on their own. So yeah, a big part of that is "Wait for it, wait for it, wait for it, now turn, gas gas gas go go go." Im surprised they are equipped similar to a drivers ed car, where the instructor has a brake pedal or other form of control. All they had in my car was a dial control to reduce power. Per the Jalopnik comments from people who have been there, I'm stunned that they actually do have brake pedals for the instructor. Like Tinman said, the last thing you want to do it almost any "oh shit" situation is hit the brakes. I'm not even sure how I'd use it. Now a power knob, I would kill for one of those. I've only been instructing for a couple of years now and have generally had very good experiences, but these sorts of "driving adventure" things scare me, mostly for the people they attract. I've had exactly 1 student who didn't seem to have any interest in learning car control or racecraft -- young kid in a brand new C7 who just wanted to see how fast it could go. Suffice it to say, he did not get the experience he expected. I just can't see myself wanting to jump into a supercar with some guy who wants a vacation memory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DKilbourne Posted February 14, 2017 Report Share Posted February 14, 2017 Fuck I would hate someone talking into my ear the whole time. I know it's their job and they're "instructing" you but damn, I feel like it'd be hard to concentrate Honestly, you have to be open to it. I've only done one and it was in the flipping rain. Actually made it a little more fun in the end. Basically, you have to trust the instructor and listen to exactly what they are saying. Having said that, I would never want someone who has only driven an econobox with zero course experience blasting through and trying to not crap their pants from just laying into it on a straight. By listen, I mean pay complete attention to what you are doing and respond quickly to commands or you won't enjoy it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geeto67 Posted February 14, 2017 Report Share Posted February 14, 2017 how many of these driver "experiences" require real safety gear? I see a lot of these vids on youtube where the instructor doesn't have a helmet or jacket, or even long sleeves. They can spend god knows what on leasing a dozen supercars but they can't spring $100 for two helmets with in car radios and require people wear long sleeves and jackets? These cars have A/C, suck it up and put some bare minimum gear on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg1647545532 Posted February 14, 2017 Report Share Posted February 14, 2017 Helmets should be mandatory, but I'm kind of meh on the sleeves thing. I guess long sleeves/pants are supposed to be like a budget fire suit? But the protection from fire suits is measured in seconds, and those seconds are important to give the driver a chance to kill the engine, pull the suppression system handle, unbuckle a harness, pull the steering wheel, drop a window net, and egress over a door bar. In a street car, you just have to unbuckle and flop out of a giant door. A long sleeve cotton shirt ain't really gonna matter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BStowers023 Posted February 14, 2017 Report Share Posted February 14, 2017 Honestly, you have to be open to it. I've only done one and it was in the flipping rain. Actually made it a little more fun in the end. Basically, you have to trust the instructor and listen to exactly what they are saying. Having said that, I would never want someone who has only driven an econobox with zero course experience blasting through and trying to not crap their pants from just laying into it on a straight. By listen, I mean pay complete attention to what you are doing and respond quickly to commands or you won't enjoy it. Yeah, I completely understand the purpose of the instructor giving you commands, just for me personally it would ruin it I think. I believe we have essentially real in-car driving experiences that can test a persons ability accurately. You'd think these courses would invest in those and make people pass a test or qualify for a certain level of car. If you suck balls at driving but you still want to have fun, congrats, you qualify for the well-discounted price to drive this Altima. If you are awesome at driving, you qualify for the much more expensive experience of driving the Ferrari F12. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geeto67 Posted February 14, 2017 Report Share Posted February 14, 2017 but I'm kind of meh on the sleeves thing. I guess long sleeves/pants are supposed to be like a budget fire suit? But the protection from fire suits is measured in seconds, and those seconds are important to give the driver a chance to kill the engine, pull the suppression system handle, unbuckle a harness, pull the steering wheel, drop a window net, and egress over a door bar. In a street car, you just have to unbuckle and flop out of a giant door. A long sleeve cotton shirt ain't really gonna matter. It is NOT a budget fire suit. The only protection from fire is a fire suit or fire suppression. Long sleeves/jackets protect from loose debris in the car that can scratch bare skin. It's not protecting against fast moving sharp things but it is resistant to flying interior trim pieces that may have small sharp screws/clips, plus whatever else has fallen between the seats like pens, etc and other loose small objects in the car like keys. Same with gloves: not fire protection but protection from steering wheel friction burns, dash objects knocked loose, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg1647545532 Posted February 14, 2017 Report Share Posted February 14, 2017 Ah, well, meh. Maybe they shouldn't allow open face helmets with no eye protection then, but everyone does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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