Geeto67's Political Playground

[CRed05]

Ironically it's also funny to hear him talk about how he as a True African, is treated differently by the black community. Especially the poor. I've actually witnessed it first-hand as we travel together and he is indeed looked upon differently. It's like they snub him as soon as they hear his accent. The ironic part is when they reference African American's when in fact he is truely an African American.

 

So the African-American thing has always pissed me off too.

 

Where and how does he get treated differently by the black community? My experience has been mostly positive when a black american finds out I'm from SA and they usually want to learn more. There was one time, when some dumbass was trying to play the "you took over their land" shit...that was just an ignorant fool who doesn't know the history.

[CRed05]

Have you guys been outside recently? I'm ready for winter to be over.

 

Fucking cold, man.

 

Ohio is such a shithole

[TTQ B4U]

Thank you for that perspective.

 

It's interesting to me, this modern conservative view of immigration seems like an admittance that the American dream I learned about as a kid is BS. (The American dream, of course, being a contrast of the class system of feudal England, where your lot in life was determined by your family's position in society. Rather, in America, it didn't matter who your parents were, or how much money they had, or your race/religion/nationality; anybody could become anybody).

 

it's not BS, but we can't in 2018 just leave the borders wide open and keep taking in at the expense of those that are already here.

 

Not that the erosion of the American dream is a conservative viewpoint, I think progressives have been shouting for years about how the American dream doesn't actually apply to a lot of underprivileged classes, but there was always a lot of pushback from conservatives about how the various success stories prove that it's still true.

 

it is still true but again, you can't save everyone in the water at the expense of those in the boat.

And yet, here we have a modern approach, which says yes, it does matter who your parents are, and how much money they have, and if you don't meet those minimum qualifications then it doesn't matter how hard you work, you probably won't succeed here, so we shouldn't let you in lest you become a drain on public resources.

 

and for a third time, in one respect it has to be that way. it doesn't negate hard work, just a matter of when that hard work occurs and how much assistance is needed. we still take in plenty of people but to ignore the financial impacts is plain irresponsible.

 

That's how it feels, at least. Maybe it's true, but it just doesn't describe the American I want to live in. But again, I do appreciate the perspective.

 

and a border-less society where we put strains on our system and put undue hardships on our own people for the sake of helping numbers beyond what we should is not a society I want to live in. there's nothing wrong with responsible and safe immigration. other countries do it and for good reason.

[CRed05]

Just to be clear, I'm not saying the US should go border-less. Absolutely not! But blocking people just because they came from a certain continent/country/region is ridiculous.

[TTQ B4U]

So the African-American thing has always pissed me off too.

 

Where and how does he get treated differently by the black community? My experience has been mostly positive when a black american finds out I'm from SA

 

I've seen it with him several times. I was skeptical at first too. It like they see him as being of a higher class that they resent or that his accent makes him come across as looking down on them. He's extremely well spoken and educated so of course when we're at a bar and a regular guy from the city comes up to us or plays pool with us they immediately put up a wall. It's funny. Even when we're slumming it n jeans and casual shirts uber drivers give him shit. Hell, I watched him about get in a fight over something one time and the N word was tossed around quite a bit on both sides. I actually laughed because it was like watching a cat-fight among women.

[CRed05]

It like they see him as being of a higher class that they resent or that his accent makes him come across as looking down on them.

 

Crazy. I've lost my accent, which I wish I didn't...chicks dig it. My GF is always saying how she wishes she knew me when I still had it :fa:

[TTQ B4U]

blocking people just because they came from a certain continent/country/region is ridiculous.

 

yes/no. we've proven that there are too many cracks for the bad ones to slip through. close those gaps and ensure we're good and then I'll be fine with travel bans going away. Until then though, gaps are no good and we've seen plenty of examples of liberals even willingly protecting those that are in-our-face here illegally. it has ZERO to do with race/color of skin. It's about laws; period. I don't care if they are white and from Europe, if they over stayed their visa there's action to be taken and they are no better than the dude swimming across the River in Texas.

 

I'm fucking tired of politicians playing games, putting on stupd face and tossing the race card out there. Those people need to get the fuck out and leave politics. If there ever is a revolution involving guns, those are the ones that need to go first as that will save countless lives of others as the stupidity will end with them.

[greg1647545532]

and a border-less society where we put strains on our system and put undue hardships on our own people for the sake of helping numbers beyond what we should is not a society I want to live in. there's nothing wrong with responsible and safe immigration. other countries do it and for good reason.

 

Other countries do it, but I think having much more open immigration policies is something that made America unique and great. I'm not sure I'd agree that other countries do it for a "good reason." I think a lot of it is xenophobia, even (especially?) in progressive countries.

 

It just seems that we've dealt with massive influxes of immigrants in the past, and based on my understanding of history, people have always said, "yes, we treated those past immigrants badly and that was wrong, but this wave of immigrants is different." And then 50 years pass and we decide that that wave of immigrants wasn't actually different, and we like them now.

 

Nobody is advocating for irresponsible and unsafe immigration, naturally. And I understand my desire for essentially open borders (keep out the terrorists and felons but let anyone else in if they want) puts me out on a libertarian fringe, but I hope you understand that it's not based on anything other than a sincere belief that free and open immigration policies have and will continue to make America a better place.

[TTQ B4U]

Other countries do it, but I think having much more open immigration policies is something that made America unique and great. I'm not sure I'd agree that other countries do it for a "good reason." I think a lot of it is xenophobia, even (especially?) in progressive countries.

 

IMO having a fear or dislike of strangers or foreigners or of anything that is strange or foreign is normal. There are many many instances in our lives daily where it's a smart thing. Trust and likability are EARNED not something we should move into blindly. When we have a group of people like ISIS hidden a group of Muslims it's not hard to understand why there's fear or dislike. The ironic thing is the dems are all about Russia and Russians when it comes to the Political landscape and it's to the point where they too are exhibiting a form of Xenophobia.

 

The good reason is simply because a few bad apples will ruin the whole barrel. In the car world it's common too. How many here are brand loyal or not loyal based on past experiences or valid reasons. Is that fair or does their example curse the whole brand? Same difference and it's common.

 

It just seems that we've dealt with massive influxes of immigrants in the past, and based on my understanding of history, people have always said, "yes, we treated those past immigrants badly and that was wrong, but this wave of immigrants is different." And then 50 years pass and we decide that that wave of immigrants wasn't actually different, and we like them now.

 

The landscape of our world and the immigrants we're dealing with and the situation financially our country is facing is vastly different. Trust is earned and just as companies wouldn't hire just anyone nor would you wisely invite just anyone to stay with your family, it's just plain responsible to act with caution and greater responsibility when it comes to allowing outsiders into our country.

 

I hope you understand that it's not based on anything other than a sincere belief that free and open immigration policies have and will continue to make America a better place.

 

it's how we define free and open. that has changed over time and not for the better IMO. we as a country have the right and responsibility to our citizens to be vet those that come here and WE determine who comes not those that coming here. End Chain migration or very severally limit it, put some qualification around who we take in and why and lock down our borders (both physical and visa-related) so we can keep out those we don't choose first-hand. Lastly, we need to put in place a system of consequences that swiftly deals with those breaking the law. There's ZERO justification for sanctuary city bullshit. Those leaders who support that BS need to go pound salt and find another career.

[CRed05]

End Chain migration or very severally limit it, put some qualification around who we take in and why and lock down our borders (both physical and visa-related) so we can keep out those we don't choose first-hand.

 

Chain migration...

 

So when I became a citizen, one of the first things I did was to sign my sister up to get a green card so that she can come study here once she graduates high school and eventually work and live in the states where she has a fair chance at it.

 

It will take 10+ years before she could become eligible for green card application, she will then still have to get an immigrant Visa, for which she will have to go do a bunch of medical tests and interview for. Once she is here, then she can start the green card process just like everyone else, which is a whole lot of other checks.

 

Me, as citizen, chose her first-hand to come here

 

Edit: Also, there is a limit to how many people get it per year. And countries with a lot of applications (like India and probably Somalia), it can take much longer to get selected.

[99StockGT]

Oh, and when he emphasized "in god we trust" and Paul Ryan pointed up to the sky, it boiled my blood a little.

 

Just want to mention, as someone who similarly doesn't appreciate God involved in my politics of man... what he was pointing to is the engraving on the wall above his head.

 

https://goo.gl/images/n8ypBI

[Geeto67]

we as a country have the right and responsibility to our citizens to be vet those that come here and WE determine who comes not those that coming here.

 

Do you think we don't "vet" them now? The Immigration process is pretty robust - they don't let in just anybody. First off there isn't just one type of immigration, there are dozens of categories from temp to indefinite visas, employment, family based, etc....each has it's own requirements and restrictions, and all of them vet ability to work, basic skills, etc. It's not an easy open door to get into the US, we turn away hundreds of thousands of people a year - more than we let in.

 

So what, specifically, is it you think is not being done right? cite specific examples.

 

Maybe your prejudices against Somali's that is keeping you from seeing the bigger picture or making a causal connection where there isn't one. You see the part of town that houses their community and it is a poor area, and it is plagued with all the same things every other poor area is plagued with, but because you see it and it is this specific group - you think they brought this problem with them and it's specific to their nationality. In reality the neighborhood probably doesn't have any more problems than any other poor neighborhood, but you love to trot out how the Somali's are ruining columbus because "you have seen it with your own eyes".

 

What you aren't seeing is that immigrating to a foreign country from anywhere to anywhere is hard. First off, unless you are obscenely wealthy, you can't really take much of your possessions with you, so you are basically starting with whatever you can fit into a suitcase. Also standard of living doesn't translate across borders, lots of middle class educated people end up in the US poor. Plus being highly educated doesn't guarantee you a job. It was an old joke that half the cab drivers in NYC were doctors in their home country, but that isn't far from the truth - there were lots of physicians that came from other countries that found when they got here their medical licenses weren't recognized and their standards of education made them ineligible to obtain an state license to practice medicine. So they end up doing other jobs, some in the medical industry but most of them not and not nearly paying as well. This is so common a thing across a lot of higher education career areas that it has become a comic cliche - recently I was watching a rerun of Big bang theory where the Russian immigrant janitor at the college was Nuclear Physicist in Russia, and while it was funny - it is rooted in a dark truth.

 

End Chain migration or very severally limit it, put some qualification around who we take in and why and lock down our borders (both physical and visa-related) so we can keep out those we don't choose first-hand.

 

Ok, so first off you know there are already limits to chain migration, right? As an immigrant you can only file for:

Spouse

Unmarried son or daughter

And they still have to pass the standard vetting process which is already very through. A US citizen can sponsor a sibling as well which non-citizens cannot do.

 

So while "Chain migration" sounds scary on paper it isn't at all actually - and by the way the current backlog is 20 years for some countries so....how much of a threat is "Chain Migration". It actually isn't at all, but because of the name and the things people assume without actually researching it has become a Republican talking point.

 

Ending "Chain migration" means splitting up family units, husband and wives and their underage children, is that really what you want to end? It isn't going to make a dent in terrorism, and ending it isn't going to suddenly going to stop a huge number of people from coming into the country. So why do you want to end it again?

 

so Tim, before you start your "chain migration" rhetoric again, I suggest you read this primer on it so you actually know what you are talking about:

 

https://www.snopes.com/2018/02/01/what-is-chain-migration/

 

 

Lastly, we need to put in place a system of consequences that swiftly deals with those breaking the law. There's ZERO justification for sanctuary city bullshit. Those leaders who support that BS need to go pound salt and find another career.

 

Whom are you looking to punish exactly? We deport people who are caught in the country illegally - so are you looking to punish? the state politicians? Be more clear.

 

As far as the justification for this "sanctuary city bullshit" there is a pretty big justification for it and one you actually like - state's rights. To be more specific, the state's right to control their law enforcement budget. The funny thing about law enforcement at the federal level is it leans really heavily on the state law enforcement activity and puts very little money in to assist with that. Most states make enforcement of it a priority based on what their budget will allow, and it does vary from ignoring it completely to somewhat rigorous depending on the state. When the federal government starts to say it wants to ramp up enforcement and deportations - what the states hear is that it wants to increase the state's spending on capturing and housing prisoners and doesn't want to pay for it. What the federal government has spent money on is creating deportation courts that are supposed to be "faster" than regular ones, but what is being found is that the cost of this speed is to disregard procedure, in some cases basic human rights, and create inefficiencies in the process to get it wrong. This American life did a really good piece on these types of courts - you should listen: https://www.thisamericanlife.org/636/transcript

 

But more importantly, next time you hear a city saying it is a "sanctuary city" you should re-adjust your ears to hear what is really going on - the state saying to the federal government "fuck off with your strict enforcement unless you are going to give us money to pay the costs of this extra enforcement".

Edited February 8, 2018 by Geeto67

[TTQ B4U]

Do you think we don't "vet" them now? The Immigration process is pretty robust - they don't let in just anybody.

 

roll down to the shit hole areas around Morse/Karl Rd and explain to me the value of 90% of those fuck-sticks causing trouble and living in the hood is. I was in MN with one my guys and I was floored that they too have areas that have been flooded with section 8 immigrants living off our dime. it was sad to see what we've done to some areas of town.

 

I don't give a shit if we "vet" them. Why the fuck we're letting them come here in the first place is ridiculous. "Some" are good people, many of them are not. I don't need paragraphs of your rhetoric to see it. I travel a lot and I see things first hand in nearly every major city.

Maybe your prejudices against Somali's that is keeping you from seeing the bigger picture or making a causal connection where there isn't one.

 

My prejudice is again any turd regardless of color. If we bring in poor ass uneducated whites who don't speak English and have to be supported on the tax payer dime and then they get to bring even just one additional person just like them it's called stupidity. I'm fine with one college bound kid bringing a sibling doing the same thing but I'm not okay with the above.

 

You see the part of town that houses their community and it is a poor area, and it is plagued with all the same things every other poor area is plagued with, but because you see it and it is this specific group - you think they brought this problem with them and it's specific to their nationality.

 

Kerry, I'm well aware that we have hood-areas in Columbus. What I'm not okay with is filling them up with people from outside this country that simply add to the problem. You can stop trying to paint common sense as racism any day now. You do it a lot.

 

In reality the neighborhood probably doesn't have any more problems than any other poor neighborhood, but you love to trot out how the Somali's are ruining columbus because "you have seen it with your own eyes".

 

See my points above. We don't need to import more welfare based people who aren't supporting themselves.

 

What you aren't seeing is that immigrating to a foreign country from anywhere to anywhere is hard. First off, unless you are obscenely wealthy, you can't really take much of your possessions with you, so you are basically starting with whatever you can fit into a suitcase. Also standard of living doesn't translate across borders, lots of middle class educated people end up in the US poor. Plus being highly educated doesn't guarantee you a job. It was an old joke that half the cab drivers in NYC were doctors in their home country, but that isn't far from the truth - there were lots of physicians that came from other countries that found when they got here their medical licenses weren't recognized and their standards of education made them ineligible to obtain an state license to practice medicine.

 

Kerry, I know and see all of the above. I started over in an apartment with a rental car when I moved to Ontario and had to do it for 2yrs. I wasn't rich and It wasn't easy, but I didn't live off their system and made it happen with the support of my family here and an employer that was cool as fuck.

 

I also do know one of my doctors that immigrated with a license that isn't recognized. She has since worked for her husband who she met here and then moved into a very lucrative real estate business. It's her education, drive and quality of "merit" that led her to that success. I'll import people like her all day long. Those aren't the people in question. No, she never had to drive a cab but she did start over completely to escape the world she was in over in Romania.

 

So they end up doing other jobs, some in the medical industry but most of them not and not nearly paying as well. This is so common a thing across a lot of higher education career areas that it has become a comic cliche - recently I was watching a rerun of Big bang theory where the Russian immigrant janitor at the college was Nuclear Physicist in Russia, and while it was funny - it is rooted in a dark truth.

 

again, the ones I'm "seeing" and that are among us aren't the doctors and nuclear scientists of the world and you know that.

So while "Chain migration" sounds scary on paper it isn't at all actually - and by the way the current backlog is 20 years for some countries so....how much of a threat is "Chain Migration". It actually isn't at all, but because of the name and the things people assume without actually researching it has become a Republican talking point.

 

Stephen Legomsky, a Washington University law professor is an immigration law specialist found that about 120,000 of the 800,000 that Senator Johnson from WI recently sited as coming from chain migration were actually not spouses, children or parents. Thus I agree that the "scary" factor isn't what the right wing fringe is talking about, but that's 120k is still a big fucking number that needs curbed greatly.

 

Ending "Chain migration" means splitting up family units, husband and wives and their underage children, is that really what you want to end? It isn't going to make a dent in terrorism, and ending it isn't going to suddenly going to stop a huge number of people from coming into the country. So why do you want to end it again?

 

No it doesn't Kerry. So before you go spouting off that the world here is perfect the way it is, you should get out a bit more and actually travel around the country a bit. I volunteer on a mobile clinic 14 days per year in the shit-hole areas of town and it's amazing the number of immigrants that nearly out-number the locals. My wife volunteers 3 days a week in Dublin schools and the number of kids that don't speak English - she teaches English as a Second Language, is amazing. It's also amazing how so many of them don't want to be here and miss their real home. Some are good and want to be here but a lot of them don't and are a big drain on the classes they are in. I see, she sees it, my kids see it.

[TTQ B4U]

We deport people who are caught in the country illegally - so are you looking to punish? the state politicians? Be more clear.

 

do we really Kerry? How many times are we going to deport these criminals only to let them right back in? Do you not feel something needs corrected here when these fucks keep coming back? Do you really support the politicians trying to protect them?

 

As far as the justification for this "sanctuary city bullshit" there is a pretty big justification for it and one you actually like - state's rights. To be more specific, the state's right to control their law enforcement budget.

 

It's all bullshit and you know it. Budget my fucking ass, the end-cost to our society because they won't hold a person or make a phone call is crap. If it was strictly budget related that's an easy fix and the talking points would be filled with that. They aren't though, these mayors and governors just continually spout off about protecting "all people" they rarely if ever mention money. No one is hurting the states rights either. How about these "states" learn to cooperate with the feds vs trying to say it's not their job.

 

When the federal government starts to say it wants to ramp up enforcement and deportations - what the states hear is that it wants to increase the state's spending on capturing and housing prisoners and doesn't want to pay for it.

 

Let's hear one of these officials stand up and flat-out tell Trump they support the cause and they'll do all they can and will do so with the following funding and reasons behind the request. They don't because they know he'd find them the money but more importantly they don't have one fucking ounce of interest in doing it. They bitch about the lack of resources but I've yet to see any of them lead the way in the public eye asking or hell even challenging Trump and his administration to help make it happen. It would actually make sense but they don't' want to make sense.

 

What the federal government has spent money on is creating deportation courts that are supposed to be "faster" than regular ones, but what is being found is that the cost of this speed is to disregard procedure, in some cases basic human rights

 

They do need to speed up the process. Our system is filled with too many delays that cost too much money. That's the problem with it and you know it. Lawyers and law makers love red tape and costs. Follow the money and it's pretty easy to see why. They make their living off red tape.

 

But more importantly, next time you hear a city saying it is a "sanctuary city" you should re-adjust your ears to hear what is really going on - the state saying to the federal government "fuck off with your strict enforcement unless you are going to give us money to pay the costs of this extra enforcement".

 

Again, let's begin to see them step up with a challenge or a plan to make that shit happen vs telling the Feds to fuck off and die. Nope, they won't, they will instead go on MSNBC and spout off talking points about racism and supporting their entire community. It's all politics and bullshit and what they don't like about Trump and his agenda is that it jeopardizes their reputation and how they've done things for years and their income stream of red tape.

[Geeto67]

roll down to the shit hole areas around Morse/Karl Rd and explain to me the value of 90% of those fuck-sticks causing trouble and living in the hood is. I was in MN with one my guys and I was floored that they too have areas that have been flooded with section 8 immigrants living off our dime. it was sad to see what we've done to some areas of town.

 

So tell me...how do you tell the difference between an immigrant neighborhood and a US citizen ethnic neighborhood from a moving car? I'm pretty sure you don't - you just look for signs not in English and assume.

 

I don't give a shit if we "vet" them.

your whole rhetoric is getting a better class of immigrants through restrictions. Testing them against those restrictions is vetting them. I can tolerate your ignorance and willingness to believe partisan lies, but just not understanding what it means to "vet" someone makes this a hard conversation to have. Again, the restrictions and the process is pretty robust - what "Exactly" do you think is not being done?

 

Why the fuck we're letting them come here in the first place is ridiculous. "Some" are good people, many of them are not. I don't need paragraphs of your rhetoric to see it. I travel a lot and I see things first hand in nearly every major city.

 

"Good" people by whose standard? yours? You see it so then it must be true for all people in all cases, regardless of what the data or you know people who aren't you that actually know about these things are paid to study it say. You see it, even though you collect no information and don't even know for sure what you are seeing is accurate is most important. LOL:dumb:

 

 

My prejudice is again any turd regardless of color. If we bring in poor ass uneducated whites who don't speak English and have to be supported on the tax payer dime and then they get to bring even just one additional person just like them it's called stupidity. I'm fine with one college bound kid bringing a sibling doing the same thing but I'm not okay with the above.

We have plenty of poor ass whites here as it is, we don't need to import any more, but what is important to note is you aren't exactly this angry about them or their situation. It's always the somali's with you, or always the "Turds" (let's pretend that you don't use that term more often than not to refer to brown people and are oblivious to it). My point is, get angry about poverty, immigration is small potatoes compared to that larger problem.

 

Kerry, I'm well aware that we have hood-areas in Columbus. What I'm not okay with is filling them up with people from outside this country that simply add to the problem. You can stop trying to paint common sense as racism any day now. You do it a lot.

 

Your common sense sounds awfully racist. Pointing it out isn't a crime or even that hard to do, it's just making obvious what you have chosen to ignore. Everybody has some ingrained racial prejudice, humans are tribal by nature, but the difference is how much you let it influence what you say and do and honestly - you let it dictate a lot of what you say. The fact you don't see it, probably has more to do with your own self awareness and introspection, but it doesn't mean it isn't there. Lots of people had pretty racist "common sense", the area most of them live in is called "The South", doesn't make them any less racist.

 

See my points above. We don't need to import more welfare based people who aren't supporting themselves.

 

Another fun fact about family based immigration - it has a requirement that the sponsoring person be able to financially support that individual:

In addition to bearing responsibility for application fees and any ancillary costs, sponsors of immigrant family members must prove they can support them financially for an extended period of time, starting with proof of an income at or above 125 percent of the federal poverty level. They remain financially responsible for all sponsored immigrant relatives until the latter become citizens, are credited with having worked 10 years in the U.S., leave the country permanently, or die

Seriously, you should read that link I posted. In fact, stop reading my reply right now and go read that so when you do reply you are at least better educated on the subject matter.

 

 

 

Kerry, I know and see all of the above. I started over in an apartment with a rental car when I moved to Ontario and had to do it for 2yrs. I wasn't rich and It wasn't easy, but I didn't live off their system and made it happen with the support of my family here and an employer that was cool as fuck.

 

And yet you had way bigger advantage over others who emigrate here in that you spoke the native language, had a job lined up, and moved to a country that was driving distance from your home one. Most others have maybe 1 of those three if any.

 

I also do know one of my doctors that immigrated with a license that isn't recognized. She has since worked for her husband who she met here and then moved into a very lucrative real estate business. It's her education, drive and quality of "merit" that led her to that success. I'll import people like her all day long. Those aren't the people in question. No, she never had to drive a cab but she did start over completely to escape the world she was in over in Romania.

 

A singular example is not the whole. Education is already an evaluated factor. I am not sure how you can objectively measure "Drive" and I honestly don't know your definition of merit but I can guess you think it is different from how the government determines "merit" even though you probably can't tell me how. Lots of people in this country live in poverty, few make something of themselves, this isn't a problem exclusive to immigrants. Even if we took only college educated people with "drive" and "Merit" according to your definitions most of them would not succeed either.

 

 

again, the ones I'm "seeing" and that are among us aren't the doctors and nuclear scientists of the world and you know that.

 

I have no idea what the fuck you are seeing. I am pretty confident you don't know what the fuck you are seeing either because I highly doubt you are talking to these people.

 

Stephen Legomsky, a Washington University law professor is an immigration law specialist found that about 120,000 of the 800,000 that Senator Johnson from WI recently sited as coming from chain migration were actually not spouses, children or parents. Thus I agree that the "scary" factor isn't what the right wing fringe is talking about, but that's 120k is still a big fucking number that needs curbed greatly.

 

Again, read the link to snopes. It talks about the original definition of "Chain migration" vs how republicans have changed that definition to suit their ends. You are taking Legomsky's statement out of context as "Proof" that there are other people coming in under "Chain migration" when his point was that Senator Johnson was actually using the definition of Chain migration in a misleading way to make the problem seem bigger than it is. he goes on to further say that even if it were true, it represents only 10% of the total number of immigrants, so 120K isn't "A big fucking number".

 

also you left out the part of that article which goes on to say:

 

Syracuse University political science professor Elizabeth Cohen, whose specialties include immigration, told us:

 

This idea that an immigrant receives a visa and all of a sudden five or 10 close and distant relatives are being pulled in on a chain is completely unrepresentative of how our immigration system actually works.

 

 

No it doesn't Kerry. So before you go spouting off that the world here is perfect the way it is, you should get out a bit more and actually travel around the country a bit.

 

Nobody is saying the world is perfect. It sure as fuck ain't. But that doesn't mean it can't improve.

 

I'm saying you, Tim, prefer to not actually research anything that isn't reaffirming your own biases. You see things, you make a snap judgement, and then spend the rest of the time trying to affirm what you see rather understand anything objectively. You ignore any data that doesn't jive with what you see and that's just not objective. And you are quick to assign problems to specific nationalities as if those problems are exclusive to them when they are not.

 

I have lived in 6 different cities and one foreign country. I have visited most of the state in the US for work or pleasure. This isn't about being well traveled.

 

 

I volunteer on a mobile clinic 14 days per year in the shit-hole areas of town and it's amazing the number of immigrants that nearly out-number the locals.

 

One tiny sample in one small geographic location is not statistically significant to the whole of the problem. It was mentioned earlier here that immigrants make more use, statistically speaking, of medical services than natives at the same poverty level, so maybe you are seeing more because the natives aren't showing up. If you were volunteering with something in housing you might have a different experience.

 

My wife volunteers 3 days a week in Dublin schools and the number of kids that don't speak English - she teaches English as a Second Language, is amazing. It's also amazing how so many of them don't want to be here and miss their real home. Some are good and want to be here but a lot of them don't and are a big drain on the classes they are in. I see, she sees it, my kids see it.

 

Amazing to whom? I live in dublin and my kid goes to dublin schools. MY experience has been that there ain't no poor people in dublin. There are 4 section 8 apartment complexes that fall into the dublin school district. That's 396 apartments in a town of 41,000 people. According to the 2010 census 2.7% of the people that live in dublin live at or below the poverty line so...that's not an "Amazing" number of people even if every one of them didn't speak English.

 

It's great you do this volunteer work, and I don't doubt you have these experiences, but you lack the larger context for perspective. You need both data and experience.

[BStowers023]

Nobody is advocating for irresponsible and unsafe immigration, naturally. And I understand my desire for essentially open borders (keep out the terrorists and felons but let anyone else in if they want) puts me out on a libertarian fringe, but I hope you understand that it's not based on anything other than a sincere belief that free and open immigration policies have and will continue to make America a better place.

 

I don't disagree with this a ton although I think you would have to change your views on our welfare, assistance programs for this to be realistic. You can't allow open borders and welfare. I would be all for letting anyone in (outside of terrorists and known criminals) if we went to an almost purely Capitalistic society. If you make it, great, if you can't, welp sorry...

[Lauren]

Tim I'm from Minnesota. Back in the 80/90's the luyhdrn churches brought over Asians. Mostly Viet,Laos and Hmong. Other then some gang activity they all entered into the community. Hard workers abs tried to make the american dream their work ethic is outstanding.

 

Then in the late 90's/00's they started to bring Somalis. The Somalis took over sections our the city and creates nasty ghettos. They don't work and they are constantly causing crime and flooding the justice system. They literally added nothing to the community but trouble. I grew up in this and have first ha d experience.

 

 

Now here in Columbus I have met with the African community from Nigeria. They rent my dance studio out multiple times a month for weddings and birthdays and baby showers. They are well educated and respectful.

 

What's my rant with this. We shouldn't as a country feel guilted to accept everybody. Sometimes it works out great but sometimes you are left with hundreds of thousands of people that are dead weight.

[Geeto67]

I don't disagree with this a ton although I think you would have to change your views on our welfare, assistance programs for this to be realistic. You can't allow open borders and welfare. I would be all for letting anyone in (outside of terrorists and known criminals) if we went to an almost purely Capitalistic society. If you make it, great, if you can't, welp sorry...

 

Ok, so what's the solution for poverty then? Remember, every government policy is solving for something - and those social programs account for a lot (infant mortality, child nutrition, public safety, etc...). So if you get rid of them how do you fix what they were solving for?

[greg1647545532]

I don't disagree with this a ton although I think you would have to change your views on our welfare, assistance programs for this to be realistic. You can't allow open borders and welfare. I would be all for letting anyone in (outside of terrorists and known criminals) if we went to an almost purely Capitalistic society. If you make it, great, if you can't, welp sorry...

 

You seem to think that immigrants use public assistance at a higher rate than other groups (and a substantially higher rate at that). I don't believe that's factually accurate.

 

If I'm right about the facts, would that change your opinion?

[BStowers023]

Ok, so what's the solution for poverty then? Remember, every government policy is solving for something - and those social programs account for a lot (infant mortality, child nutrition, public safety, etc...). So if you get rid of them how do you fix what they were solving for?

 

Great question, Kerry. I wish I had the trillion dollar answer for you but unfortunately I do not, and neither do you. I can tell you this though, adding more social programs and welfare programs is not the answer and neither is adding more poverty stricken, uneducated immigrants that don't have a real shot at success here.

 

 

You seem to think that immigrants use public assistance at a higher rate than other groups (and a substantially higher rate at that). I don't believe that's factually accurate.

 

If I'm right about the facts, would that change your opinion?

 

Sure, but remember, we are not talking about all immigrants. Only the ones from 3rd world countries. I'm all for immigrants coming to America if they can be productive members of society. I just don't understand why knowingly adding more leeches to society is somehow a good thing when like you just said you're going to try to prove, we already have enough leeches living here already?

[greg1647545532]

Sure, but remember, we are not talking about all immigrants. Only the ones from 3rd world countries. I'm all for immigrants coming to America if they can be productive members of society. I just don't understand why knowingly adding more leeches to society is somehow a good thing when like you just said you're going to try to prove, we already have enough leeches living here already?

 

Do you think that nationality is a good indicator of whether or not someone is going to be a leech? Isn't this the same xenophobic argument that people have been making for centuries? "We can't let all of these Italians come in, they're a bunch of leeches!"

 

Which plank of the Libertarian platform does pre-judging people based on their nationality come from?

 

eta: Throughout history, nobody has been lining up at our door from first world countries. To Trump's point about Norway, we don't get a lot of Norwegian immigrants because Norway isn't poor and they're all pretty content with their socialized healthcare and high quality of living.

 

We get immigrants from poor countries because they want a better life. Wanting a better life and being willing to uproot yourself and your family to get it is, IMHO, a pretty good indicator of whether or not someone is going to end up being productive. And I think the data over 200 years of American history bears this out.

[BStowers023]

Do you think that nationality is a good indicator of whether or not someone is going to be a leech? Isn't this the same xenophobic argument that people have been making for centuries? "We can't let all of these Italians come in, they're a bunch of leeches!"

 

Which plank of the Libertarian platform does pre-judging people based on their nationality come from?

 

eta: Throughout history, nobody has been lining up at our door from first world countries. To Trump's point about Norway, we don't get a lot of Norwegian immigrants because Norway isn't poor and they're all pretty content with their socialized healthcare and high quality of living.

 

We get immigrants from poor countries because they want a better life. Wanting a better life and being willing to uproot yourself and your family to get it is, IMHO, a pretty good indicator of whether or not someone is going to end up being productive. And I think the data over 200 years of American history bears this out.

 

 

You're the one bringing up race and nationality. I just said 3rd world countries.

 

Are you okay with open borders if we dramatically change our welfare system? Maybe we can reach an agreement here (not that it matters, but for funs sake) What if we did something like this for immigrants...

 

-You must find work within 6 months of living here or be enrolled full-time in college.

-You get 18 months total of Government assistance.

-Commit a crime above a misdemeanor, you're gone.

-Fail to come off ANY form of Government assistance after 18 months, you're gone.

-Unemployed after 6 months here, gone.

 

I think that's reasonable. If someone can't reach those requirements, do we really want them here? In before you or Kerry goes on a rant about what percentage of people already in this country fail to reach those requirements, so I'll go ahead and rebut that argument. WE DO NOT WANT TO ADD ANYMORE LEECHES IF WE CANNOT GET RID OF THE ONES WE HAVE ALREADY. Omg, there are cockroaches in my house! Well, might as well let 100 more cockroach families in! Why? Because REASONS!

[greg1647545532]

You're the one bringing up race and nationality. I just said 3rd world countries.

 

Nationality = country of origin, I never said race. Try to keep up.

 

Are you okay with open borders if we dramatically change our welfare system? Maybe we can reach an agreement here (not that it matters, but for funs sake) What if we did something like this for immigrants...

 

-You must find work within 6 months of living here or be enrolled full-time in college.

-You get 18 months total of Government assistance.

-Commit a crime above a misdemeanor, you're gone.

-Fail to come off ANY form of Government assistance after 18 months, you're gone.

-Unemployed after 6 months here, gone.

 

Sure. Most legal immigrants already have to jump through various hoops like that, and I really have no issue with making them jump through whatever hoops you want. I mean, those are probably terrible hoops to be honest, but to be fair you're not qualified to make the hoops and I'm not qualified to critique them. But if your general problem is hoops, then by all means, hoops it is. I mean, have you seen the requirements for DACA recipients? My god, I'm not sure if I could have satisfied them when I was younger. Those guys are fucking rockstars by your standards.

 

My big problem is that there's no way for the vast majority of would-be-immigrants to even access the hoops, which is why we have all kinds of people overstaying their visas and whatnot.

[99StockGT]

Not to detract with this Poo Fight Part 2 but...

 

I'm a well off, educated white male, successful in multiples businesses in multiple industries... and I live in this same Morse Rd/Karl Rd/161/Cleveland section we are repeatedly bringing up. Let me clarify, I moved here 4 years ago so I did not grow up in this area I PURPOSELY moved here.

 

1) I'm the only white guy within 2 blocks that isn't of an advanced age (old guy has lived there since the 70s)

2) My neighbors across the street from me are Hispanic, have back yard parties every damn weekend with their driveway full of family members/friends. (Often with chrome rims and trim)

3) The house behind me is burnt and uninhabited. Has been for more than 2 years.

4) All of the people living around me are black/african-american/african.

 

During the winter months we shovel each others driveways and sidewalks. We have helped each other with raking leaves when they decide to migrate with the wind. Damn wind. During the warm months we have several people who drive MOPAR and other big body American V8s, several of us talk on a weekly basis before/after Cars and Coffee. When working on my 71 Pontiac in the garage/driveway I ALWAYS get at least one or two people who are walking down the sidewalks to stop and chat.

 

As a frequent Uber'rrr? one of my most common drivers from the area is a man in his like 50s, immigrant from Iraq who is a mechanical engineer. We have discussed all sorts of things along our travels, from life where he is from to how his life is going now, to cars. The first time he dropped me off at the shop I invited him inside to show him what we do, he was absolutely fascinated. He now has my cell phone number and semi frequently we go back and forth about all sorts of things from world history (which was my minor AND his) to automotive to food.

 

Why do I live here? Because I can't stand living around exclusively white people.Man of whome often with very similar upbringings. When you surround yourself with more of the same and have more of the same conversations, watching more of the same news broadcasts, and doing more of the same activities you get... more of the same. When you say you have "seen" these areas, and I'm not just talking to Tim, what do you mean? Do you mean I drove through it with doors locked or saw it from the interstate, which I will almost guarantee is the majority case for all the Gary Indiana folks. Or did you stop and get gas? Maybe check out a local eatery that you didn't find on Spoon, or Yelp, or wherever? How to you feel you have a taste for a community and its experience when you haven't ever been even remotely involved in their lives?

 

Please, come visit. We can get some soul food at Lawshea's or West African food at West African Restaurant, maybe some Cajun/Caribbean food at Red Pepper Caribbean Bar and Grill and talk with the owners who are almost always there.

[greg1647545532]

By the way, you've been awfully quiet about the memo after I asked you what you think it accomplished.