greg1647545532 Posted March 7, 2018 Report Share Posted March 7, 2018 But at the same time these comparative morality conversations around the "technically" consensual sexual activities of our politicians with respect to their marriages is just a bogus red herring. Nonsense, we should keep bringing it up to the fling in the face of the morons who blame a lack of "family values" for school shootings and still vote for human garbage like Trump. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geeto67 Posted March 7, 2018 Report Share Posted March 7, 2018 Tear down statues or destroy money? Is that still a thing with the statues? It is but it has become a largely local conversation. We don't have a lot of statues commemorating people who committed treason against the US government, but I still have these conversations with my friends that live in New Orleans and Atlanta. But it pretty much started and stopped with confederate monuments, so all that outrage about removing statues to founding fathers that the right seemed to drum up in opposition was more reactionary fear than reality. I just want life to be simpler again, like in the 80s or 90s when you knew the drug dealer or terrorist in the movie was bad, the good guy did cool shit with a cool catchphrase, and people still smoked wherever the fuck they wanted like hospitals, airports, and schools You know this is a really interesting point, because Reagan pretty much sailed into office promoting the notion that he was going to return the country to the the "simpler times of the 1950's". Except that no previous time was any more or less complex than the present. I think people just get really nostalgic for their youth, because that was the time when the world seemed simpler, because in the 80's as a kid you didn't have to worry about the AIDS epidemic that was raging so long as thundercats came on at the scheduled time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geeto67 Posted March 7, 2018 Report Share Posted March 7, 2018 Nonsense, we should keep bringing it up to the fling in the face of the morons who blame a lack of "family values" for school shootings and still vote for human garbage like Trump. I prefer the Anderson Cooper massive eyeroll approach and continue ignoring it for the gibberish it is. There is no serious public policy conversation that contains the words "family values". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CRed05 Posted March 7, 2018 Report Share Posted March 7, 2018 Nonsense, we should keep bringing it up to the fling in the face of the morons who blame a lack of "family values" for school shootings and still vote for human garbage like Trump. Perhaps someone could argue that morals and family values have decreased based on the fact that Clinton had one incident, and the entire country lost their mind and he damn near lost his job. Whereas today, Trump has done a lot more and worse but still got elected and in no danger of impeachment. My opinion on the statue issue. Don't ever erase history, no matter how unpleasant it might be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CRed05 Posted March 7, 2018 Report Share Posted March 7, 2018 You know this is a really interesting point, because Reagan pretty much sailed into office promoting the notion that he was going to return the country to the the "simpler times of the 1950's". Except that no previous time was any more or less complex than the present. I think people just get really nostalgic for their youth, because that was the time when the world seemed simpler, because in the 80's as a kid you didn't have to worry about the AIDS epidemic that was raging so long as thundercats came on at the scheduled time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geeto67 Posted March 7, 2018 Report Share Posted March 7, 2018 My opinion on the statue issue. Don't ever erase history, no matter how unpleasant it might be. It's a good thing we have all those history books then. Statues go up and down all the time, they are commemorative more than they are historical. Statues put up 30-100 years after the incident for the specific purpose of suppressing political action or to intimidate a specific group of American citizens aren't really there to educate regarding history, they are there to stir emotion and suppress people. Yes we should never erase our history, but we don't have to use every single method to do that. Having reams and reams of books is sufficient to document the civil war and it's cast of characters. We don't need a statue of the first Grand Wizard the KKK put up in 2010, by a guy who claims Martin Luther King Jr was properly assassinated, to remember Nathan Bedford Forrest. Thankfully the state has nothing to do with this particular statute and it is erected on private land, but we don't need the state clearing vegetation specifically to make it visible from the highway, esp when we still have all those books. https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/ugly-nathan-bedford-forrest-statue I am all for a case by case basis review of the monuments cities, states, et al erect, but this stupidity that a piece of rock or metal is somehow an unapproachable piece of history full stop is nonsense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
o0n8 Posted March 7, 2018 Report Share Posted March 7, 2018 My opinion on the statue issue. Don't ever erase history, no matter how unpleasant it might be. The confederacy participation trophies! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandon Posted March 7, 2018 Report Share Posted March 7, 2018 Nonsense, we should keep bringing it up to the fling in the face of the morons who blame a lack of "family values" for school shootings and still vote for human garbage like Trump. Ah yes, the you're a moron for having a different view point then me about "family values". I still find it impressive the divisiveness of family structures and values as relation to much of the goings on, I will stick with my approach. I know I know, science, research abstraction touchy feely. But really the data is more supporting of one side vs the other. It is kind of like teaching and incentives. Do kids get a bell curve to their teachers bonus when they care about eating more so then their math test? Must be the teachers fault. digress. He is a ethically crass turd bag, undeniable however. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geeto67 Posted March 7, 2018 Report Share Posted March 7, 2018 Don't let anybody stop you from living your life in private according to your family values. That's your business. But "Family values" as a measure of public policy? it's entirely too subjective to be rational and it doesn't often offer a solution just a prohibition. Can it provide some weight in the decision making? sure, I suppose everything has some intrinisc value, but in the realm of how to govern a massive body of people and make them all get along its just not that important. This is the distinction I often find in talking with conservatives, they don't understand why other people won't live to their standards of "family values" and why we can't just force them through laws. It's almost as if they don't understand that what works for one person doesn't work for everyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg1647545532 Posted March 7, 2018 Report Share Posted March 7, 2018 I know I know, science, research abstraction touchy feely. But really the data is more supporting of one side vs the other. You're right, the data shows that every time "family values" is brought up for some issue it's full of shit. We've gotten rid of anti-miscegenation laws and anti-homosexuality laws, and the doom and gloom that was supposed to come to pass as a result never did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TTQ B4U Posted March 7, 2018 Report Share Posted March 7, 2018 My opinion on the statue issue. Don't ever erase history, no matter how unpleasant it might be. the reality is we can't erase history and neither can those dumb fucks who think they can. the whole Washington/Jefferson slave owning things is just laughable as they are trying to apply their current 2018 view on people and society from centuries past. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TTQ B4U Posted March 7, 2018 Report Share Posted March 7, 2018 It's almost as if they don't understand that what works for one person doesn't work for everyone. most absolutely understand that and in fact that's the point. people absolutely have different standards and values. YMMV if yours work, make the world better or are fucking up society as a whole. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TTQ B4U Posted March 7, 2018 Report Share Posted March 7, 2018 I am all for a case by case basis review of the monuments cities, states, et al erect, but this stupidity that a piece of rock or metal is somehow an unapproachable piece of history full stop is nonsense. likewise I see most of the concern about them coming down is that those apposing them see their view as full-stop has to come down and there's no discussion. I mean really, to watch what's happened in the past few months in terms of people/citizens going ape-shit and pulling them down is ironic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CRed05 Posted March 7, 2018 Report Share Posted March 7, 2018 It's a good thing we have all those history books then. History is a lot more than just words written in books. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg1647545532 Posted March 7, 2018 Report Share Posted March 7, 2018 History is a lot more than just words written in books. What other evil assholes should we build statues for so we don't forget history? How about statues for all of these school shooters? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CRed05 Posted March 7, 2018 Report Share Posted March 7, 2018 What other evil assholes should we build statues for so we don't forget history? How about statues for all of these school shooters? Don't be a twat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geeto67 Posted March 7, 2018 Report Share Posted March 7, 2018 History is a lot more than just words written in books. you are right, and a statue is sometimes very little history and a lot more political/social statement. As long as it's somewhere it doesn't have to be everywhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CRed05 Posted March 7, 2018 Report Share Posted March 7, 2018 you are right, and a statue is sometimes very little history and a lot more political/social statement. As long as it's somewhere it doesn't have to be everywhere. I'll give you the case by case thing. But a statue is like a time capsule of what was important to people at the time. Their ideals, believes...the world as they saw it at the time. Perhaps we should go knock down the Inca pyramids because they were used for human sacrifices. Or how about we demolish mount Rushmore because Washington was a slave owner? Ghandi, Mandela and Churchill statues stand in London by the houses of parliament. Ghandi had sex with underage girls and was quite racist against blacks, Mandela was a terrorist and Churchill supported concentration camps. Should we take those 3 statues down? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
10phone2 Posted March 7, 2018 Report Share Posted March 7, 2018 I'll give you the case by case thing. But a statue is like a time capsule of what was important to people at the time. Their ideals, believes...the world as they saw it at the time. Perhaps we should go knock down the Inca pyramids because they were used for human sacrifices. Or how about we demolish mount Rushmore because Washington was a slave owner? Ghandi, Mandela and Churchill statues stand in London by the houses of parliament. Ghandi had sex with underage girls and was quite racist against blacks, Mandela was a terrorist and Churchill supported concentration camps. Should we take those 3 statues down? you and your silly logic. Who could ever expect today to have the same logic across the board. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geeto67 Posted March 8, 2018 Report Share Posted March 8, 2018 I'll give you the case by case thing. But a statue is like a time capsule of what was important to people at the time. Their ideals, believes...the world as they saw it at the time. It's a celebration of a person or event, historical accuracy sometimes being secondary or not at all (see robocop, Fonzi, and rocky statues) More symbolic honor than anything else. The majority of confederate statues weren't erected close in time to the civil war, they were erected during Jim Crow (early 1900's) and during the civil rights movement of the 1960's. By your logic they are a time capsule of racial bigotry and intolerance - because that is the symbol and message they carried at the time. The people who are removing them are not trying to remove history, there is no striking of the history books or revision of the record, they are refusing to let the message of bigotry continue to be endorsed by the state. Perhaps we should go knock down the Inca pyramids because they were used for human sacrifices. Or how about we demolish mount Rushmore because Washington was a slave owner? Ghandi, Mandela and Churchill statues stand in London by the houses of parliament. Ghandi had sex with underage girls and was quite racist against blacks, Mandela was a terrorist and Churchill supported concentration camps. Should we take those 3 statues down? Don't be a twat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ODoyle Posted March 8, 2018 Report Share Posted March 8, 2018 Don't be a twat. Turd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BStowers023 Posted March 8, 2018 Report Share Posted March 8, 2018 Should the Christopher Columbus statue come down? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TTQ B4U Posted March 8, 2018 Report Share Posted March 8, 2018 you are right, and a statue is sometimes very little history and a lot more political/social statement. As long as it's somewhere it doesn't have to be everywhere. let the people in the area they are at decide. if the people in small town USA vote their statue stays then leave it the fuck alone and move on. if California freaks don't want a statue or vote to support putting one up, same deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zeitgeist57 Posted March 8, 2018 Author Report Share Posted March 8, 2018 Should the Christopher Columbus statue come down? It should, as he introduced slavery, genocide, and pestilence to whole Native American societies. In fact, Kerry was talking to his good friend Jeff Bezos, and confirmed that Columbus will not be getting Amazon HQ2 because we're named after a murderer. Kerry confirmed to Bezos that the state is nothing but a bunch of knuckle-dragging racists, and we deserve to pay for the sins of our fathers. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg1647545532 Posted March 8, 2018 Report Share Posted March 8, 2018 let the people in the area they are at decide. if the people in small town USA vote their statue stays then leave it the fuck alone and move on. if California freaks don't want a statue or vote to support putting one up, same deal. IIRC, that's exactly what happened and Trump still lost his shit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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