So who's actually doing any (crapcan) endurance racing?

[craig71188]

After seeing Scott's (Cordell) poll, I am curious, how many CR folks are doing any racing with LeMons, Champcar, AER or WRL? "Crapcan" is a bit tongue in cheek as these series have evolved into some pretty serious racing (maybe a little less so in LeMons, but there are some serious teams there too).

 

Which group do you run with an why?

 

What are your impression of the groups you aren't running with?

 

If you're not racing with any of these, but are interested, what's holding you back (besides $$$)? If it's money, how much do you envision it will take?

 

I have been involved with Chump (now Champcar) for the past two years. I have helped with/rented seats in a couple of E36 BMW's, done practice laps in an RX7 and raced our Nissan truck. As far as endurance racing goes, I have found it affordable to go to 2-3 races per year. I would consider running a LeMons race again, but I find it a bit too "silly" in how they do some things for my taste. AER/WRL (typically) don't have as many entries as the others (sometimes 1-2 cars in a class) and seems less appealing to me.

 

Curious to see how many others are participating and where - or finding a few folks that want to attend/get involved in the future.

[cstmg8]

Subbed, keeping an eye out for a decent chump setup with a couple guys from work.

 

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[RyM3rC]

What kind of pace do chumpcars run around mid ohio? like 1:50s, or 1:40s or?

 

Main thing holding me back is speed and cost. Would have to borrow a trailer, get all the racer suit stuff, build a car...and that buys a lot of hpdes and consumables.

 

I went around in a 330 and it was borderline snoozefest! Only the nasueating body-roll kept me awake lol.

 

I'm warming up to it

[Robochan]

I race with SCCA but never done an endurance race although i wish to try it. Never been invited to a team and dont have faith on Aaron, Rymer and I being able to actually coordinate a racecar build and a weekend race.

[Cordell]

Some of that sounds interesting, but seeing videos of stupid goofball shit really turns me off. I assume it was Lemons or something that had random shit stuck all over the cars for themed racing. I don't know anyone that does it, maybe I have the wrong impression of it. It struck me as a junkyard running around a track, so I never looked into it.

 

If I'm wrong I would get more interested but I'm not sure who I'd do it with other then a few friends who wouldn't follow through with it.

[craig71188]

Some of that sounds interesting, but seeing videos of stupid goofball shit really turns me off. I assume it was Lemons or something that had random shit stuck all over the cars for themed racing. I don't know anyone that does it, maybe I have the wrong impression of it. It struck me as a junkyard running around a track, so I never looked into it.

 

If I'm wrong I would get more interested but I'm not sure who I'd do it with other then a few friends who wouldn't follow through with it.

 

Yes, you saw a LeMons race. I wen to one as a crew chief. Lots of costumes and "themes" - kind of fun if you're a drunk, partying fan but not what I wanted as far as racing.

 

Champcar (Chump) took the concept and revised it to be "500 point" cars instead of magic math $500 cars. Now the debate in Champ is "speed creep" as some of the top cars are gaining several seconds a year at some tracks.

 

Here's a good video of Champ @ Daytona in 2017:

 

SOme cars are still "but ugly", but the racing is very good.

[craig71188]

What kind of pace do chumpcars run around mid ohio? like 1:50s, or 1:40s or?

 

Main thing holding me back is speed and cost. Would have to borrow a trailer, get all the racer suit stuff, build a car...and that buys a lot of hpdes and consumables.

 

I went around in a 330 and it was borderline snoozefest! Only the nasueating body-roll kept me awake lol.

 

I'm warming up to it

 

Mid Ohio - low 1:40's and up. Keep in mind, 180 treadwear tires are required. Running Hancook RS3's on the E36 (245/45-17) we got a full season out of two sets. Speed is relative - going fast by yourself at a HDPE vs. going fast with 60 other cars of varying speed passing and being passed constantly is a whole different experience. Also, some people think they are going fast at a HPDE, then get in a race and find out they are 2-3 seconds slower than a like car on the track. Driver suits can be had used for cheap money and don't "expire" like a lot of other gear.

[craig71188]

Subbed, keeping an eye out for a decent chump setup with a couple guys from work.

 

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I am selling my Nissan truck set up complete w/trailer and all the endurance racing gear (fast fill fuel jugs/radios/cool suit set up) so I can do two things:

1) Rent my seat with a couple of teams to help keep them operating

2) Buy a Sports 2000 and do some "vintage enduros" myself.

 

Great fun and cheap to run as a "B" class "car" - or it could be swapped with a VQ35 and run for overall victories.

[craig71188]

I race with SCCA but never done an endurance race although i wish to try it. Never been invited to a team and dont have faith on Aaron, Rymer and I being able to actually coordinate a racecar build and a weekend race.

 

There are a couple of local teams that sometimes have seats for rent - or, come out and crew for a race and see what goes on - friendly bunch. After almost 40 years w/SCCA, I am having more fun w/Champ and see more of the old SCCA "we're just here having a good time" type of attitude.

[cstmg8]

I am selling my Nissan truck set up complete w/trailer and all the endurance racing gear (fast fill fuel jugs/radios/cool suit set up) so I can do two things:

1) Rent my seat with a couple of teams to help keep them operating

2) Buy a Sports 2000 and do some "vintage enduros" myself.

 

Great fun and cheap to run as a "B" class "car" - or it could be swapped with a VQ35 and run for overall victories.

Thanks, Is it listed somewhere? More info and pics?

 

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[Robochan]

Thanks, Is it listed somewhere? More info and pics?

 

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http://www.columbusracing.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125107

[Robochan]

There are a couple of local teams that sometimes have seats for rent - or, come out and crew for a race and see what goes on - friendly bunch. After almost 40 years w/SCCA, I am having more fun w/Champ and see more of the old SCCA "we're just here having a good time" type of attitude.

 

My 99 civic SI runs in STL. Could it run with chump? Basically stock motor, trans with a 4.9 diff. Single adjustable shocks and big front brake calipers. 175whp, 2200lbs rolling on track with me in it.

[craig71188]

Thanks, Is it listed somewhere? More info and pics?

 

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Updated CL ad with current info:

https://columbus.craigslist.org/cto/d/nissan-d21-hardbody-complete/6466264275.html

 

Car w/o trailer $4750 (but includes endurance "stuff")

 

Engine is on the stand partially assembled (details/receipts available) - broke of a NEW Fel Pro head bolt yesterday, so waiting on another set (Mahle) to finish assembly

 

Or PM me and we can discuss.

[craig71188]

My 99 civic SI runs in STL. Could it run with chump? Basically stock motor, trans with a 4.9 diff. Single adjustable shocks and big front brake calipers. 175whp, 2200lbs rolling on track with me in it.

 

Visit their site and look under "Rules and Regulations".

Per their online VPi tool, your car starts with a base point value of "350". You can download a tech sheet and rulebook to figure up the rest. Based on what you have listed above, diff swap is 25 pts, adjustable shocks are 75 pts EACH - would need to go back to a non-adjustable and there are not points for aftermarket within 2x the cost of a stock shock (most folks run Bilstein or KYB), Front calipers are probably "0" points. You want to be under 500 pts for the car and mods or you get dinged 1 lap for every 10 pts. over. Too far over and they move you to "EC" - Exceptions Class and typically can run, but aren't included for the podium. There is no minimum weight.

 

Champcar website (rules & forms page):

https://champcar.org/mainweb/rules/

[Geeesammy]

I would but I can't stomach the thought of putting that much cash into something like that.

[craig71188]

I would but I can't stomach the thought of putting that much cash into something like that.

 

Hey, I get it - it's not for everyone. I don't understand a lot of other folk's car habits.

 

Spending more than this to put up a big dyno number and grenade the motor doing it

 

Spending more than this so I can drive to a parking lot and sit and chat about how much I spent

 

For me, if I'm going to spend the money I want to be able to really drive it. For me, I also enjoy the strategy on and off the track. It's great to be able to outrace someone and sometimes even than beating someone with a better car by outsmarting them, or getting them to make a mistake.

[AudiOn19s]

Tinman has done some AER stuff after he retired his RX-7 from NASA racing. He'd be a good reference here.

 

I've been offered a couple of rides but they were last minute efforts that were literally being thrashed to be put together. As you'd expect they all failed to finish any of the races they participated in. I'm a preparation guy, I need to know everything is tested and vetted before I set out on an adventure. Heck I spend a good 8 hours going over my car prior to any track day I enter and have a yearly preventative list where I time out certain items so that hopefully I never see parts failures.

 

I think that's my biggest fear of this type of racing...lack of safety due to lack of preparation. Possibly that's just a false perception but being proud of throwing something together with any means possible just to make the start of a race but not likely finish has no appeal to me. Running on abused and dated components that are well past their time is scary to me. The spread in driver talent in some of the series is also an area of concern though I think more and more that's becoming less of an issue.

 

All of that said, I will likely hop in an AER miata at the end of the season as I know the builder of the car and it's very well prepared. Unless any other good opportunities pop up I'll just stick to thinking I'm fast at DE's :-)

[RyM3rC]

What are the big costs besides the cage? seats/harnesses? I can't really remember but last we worked out rough-numbers it was $12k-$15k depending on how much of the cage, weld, and prep work we had to hire out to get an e36 (easy mode) ready to go. It's been awhile, can't remember much more.

 

2 seasons out of a set of rs3s? Wait, I thought chump was like 8-hour enduros? Are they doing shorter races now? Thought a set of RS3s would last most of an 8-hour enduro on something like that?

[RyM3rC]

Craig it sounds like you have some good experience here so don't bullshit me- how much of the field is really just "having fun" vs guys that are cheating and over-building to win? Is it a poor-man's race for mid-pack, where the top 25% of cars are way out ahead, or is it just a couple offending teams, or ?

[craig71188]

What are the big costs besides the cage? seats/harnesses? I can't really remember but last we worked out rough-numbers it was $12k-$15k depending on how much of the cage, weld, and prep work we had to hire out to get an e36 (easy mode) ready to go. It's been awhile, can't remember much more.

 

2 seasons out of a set of rs3s? Wait, I thought chump was like 8-hour enduros? Are they doing shorter races now? Thought a set of RS3s would last most of an 8-hour enduro on something like that?

 

Perhaps I misspoke, we used two sets of RS3's for a full season. Several drivers were new so we likely weren't pushing them as hard as others might. Building what I would call a "proper" car from the ground up (depending on the car), yes, $10K is not unreasonable. Much better to start with an ex-SCCA IT class car and prep/modify/adjust to the series.

[craig71188]

Craig it sounds like you have some good experience here so don't bullshit me- how much of the field is really just "having fun" vs guys that are cheating and over-building to win? Is it a poor-man's race for mid-pack, where the top 25% of cars are way out ahead, or is it just a couple offending teams, or ?

 

There are more and more folks mounting very serious efforts for the win. Top 10% is typically (IMHO) a bit "over the top" for this type of racing. We have run E36's into the top 20 O/A, and had a 6th O/A at NCM last year. "Speed creep" has been a topic getting more and more discussion.

 

I have been lobbying for a "limited prep" class in Champ, no engine swaps, sub 300-400 point cars for those that are there more for fun. Champ does have classes based on displacement, but they are not well recognized (again, my opinion).

[craig71188]

I've been offered a couple of rides but they were last minute efforts that were literally being thrashed to be put together. As you'd expect they all failed to finish any of the races they participated in. I'm a preparation guy, I need to know everything is tested and vetted before I set out on an adventure. Heck I spend a good 8 hours going over my car prior to any track day I enter and have a yearly preventative list where I time out certain items so that hopefully I never see parts failures.

 

I think that's my biggest fear of this type of racing...lack of safety due to lack of preparation. Possibly that's just a false perception but being proud of throwing something together with any means possible just to make the start of a race but not likely finish has no appeal to me. Running on abused and dated components that are well past their time is scary to me. The spread in driver talent in some of the series is also an area of concern though I think more and more that's becoming less of an issue.

 

These are legitimate concerns. There are some bozos out there - some are on the faster teams, but in reality, I have seen no more carnage due to prep and lack of experience/talent than at a typical SCCA regional.

 

If you don't like to work on your car, this is not for you. Someone once did the math and it worked out to many hours of shop time for every hour on track (IF you want some reliability).

 

I too will not drive cars I do not know the team/history/prep on for these very reasons. I also need to trust the other drivers in the car as I don't want to be "tainted" by someone else's stupidity in the same car.

 

While AER / WRL try to hold a higher standard, there are morons in every race series.

[craig71188]

If anyone is seriously considering trying this out (with any group):

1) PM me and I will gladly chat on the phone, meet for a drink and share all I can. Been involved in IMSA / SCCA / SCCA Pro / Champ-Chump for over 30 years. I don't know it all, but I've seen a fair amount over the years.

2) Go to an event and crew/hand out and see for your self firsthand - my opinion may differ greatly from yours

3) Get on the website for the series (most have forums) and "lurk", read the posts and know (at least in Champ) there is a vocal minority on both sides of most issues and see what the general thoughts are.

 

Yes, I'd like to see more local folks at the races.

Yes, it's more fun with more cars/teams there to help each other out.

Yes, I'm willing to help with advice for anyone that wants to get involved.

 

I may even pay to drive/offer you a seat in one of our cars down the road. Or, I may come to the track and help with trackside support.

[Aaron]

I'm thinking a few of us might take you up on a lunch meeting one weekend to chat through it a bit. We're interested enough to talk and have what I consider to be a level headed group, but we are lacking the final push to start working toward prepping the car.

 

Thanks for the info.

[craig71188]

I'm thinking a few of us might take you up on a lunch meeting one weekend to chat through it a bit. We're interested enough to talk and have what I consider to be a level headed group, but we are lacking the final push to start working toward prepping the car.

 

Thanks for the info.

 

More than happy to join you for a little get together. PM me if/when you have an idea of when you would like to meet. I will be gone the weekend of FEB 10-11 as it stands right now.