Issue 1: Reduced Penalty for Drug Offenses

[Geeto67]

My best friend played football through high school and college. Before he was legally able to make his own medical decisions, he was prescribed percocet for persistent spine issues (much like how before I was old enough to make my own legal medical decisions, I was prescribed Vioxx to help with rotator cuff issues). Doctors told his parents it was safe and non-addictive. When he got to college his coaches told him he needed to put on weight to become an OL instead of a LB. He wanted to succeed and play at the highest level, but his body kept giving out on him. They crammed him full of more percocet. His football friends and coaches surrounded him with the culture that you play through the pain and if the pain becomes too much, here's a magic pill that'll help get your football career on track.

 

 

His reliance on pills was, in most ways, his choice, but all our choices are informed by those we know and trust; parents, friends, doctors, coaches, all the trusted people in his life basically. By the time heroin came into the picture for him, he'd been addicted to these allegedly non-addictive pills for 5 years, and was continuing to have them prescribed to him. His body couldn't survive without it. His detox, which he committed himself to, lasted a week. He had to throw out the shoes he wore there because the garbage that came out of his body made them smell so bad. He's not touched the junk for a long time, but addiction IS a disease. It's something he'll always have in the back of his mind. "I never want to do H again, but I can't describe to you what an amazing thing it is to actually be on it. All the pain I'd lived with for years went away. It's very difficult to walk away from that and continue living with the pain."

 

 

I'm happy that you've had a life that allows you the comfort of your opinion. Please be respectful enough of other people's different experiences and realize that not everyone has been so fortunate as you.

 

well said.

/thread

[Geeesammy]

So you truly believe the majority of heroin users are drug addicts because of their Doctor...not their own personal choice?????

 

The doctor may have prescribed pain meds...but they did it because the client told them they were in pain and needed/wanted them. It's the individuals choice to take them. Just as it is the individuals choice to continue taking them when they are no longer in pain because they LIKE and WANT the feeling the meds provide. It is the individuals CHOICE to then try heroin because it's cheaper than the pills off the street.

 

If you feel the NEED for these meds after the prescription ends and you go to heroin...it's your choice and you are now an addict. Instead of heroin, or buying pills on the street, go to rehab.

 

Addiction is not a disease.

-Marc

 

Do you personally know someone who has a drug addiction?

 

Specifically a close family member or friend?

[Richard Cranium]

I've got mixed feelings on this one. I am in 100% agreement that the current tactics are ineffective. Punishing addicts does nothing for the addiction. They don't fear jail time, they fear the effects of going without the drug. In general I am for the spirit of issue 1. But I just saw this posted from the Franklin County Municipal Court Judges. It seems like lately we keep seeing issues pop up that are changes to our state constitution. First it was Casinos, then legalizing weed (but creating a corporate monopoly). I'm not a politics kind of guy and typically try to stay away. Personally I'm for legalizing weed completely. If they want to start by cutting back on penalties for minor stuff (like weed), I'm completely for it. I do think there are some good points in this statement though.

 

As Franklin County Municipal Court judges, we are tasked with the responsibility of sanctioning convicted drug offenders and trying to direct them to treatment while holding them accountable for their actions. While we agree with the spirit of Issue 1, we strongly disagree with the proposed language and urge voters to vote NO. All 15 of us unanimously oppose Issue 1.

Franklin County has seen a significant rise in fentanyl-related deaths and the Franklin County Municipal Court is on the front line of this crisis. Issue 1 reduces possession of 19 grams of fentanyl from a felony to a misdemeanor, despite the fact that 19 grams of fentanyl can kill 10,000 people. If Issue 1 passes, a person would need to be convicted of possession of fentanyl three times within 24 months before a judge can even consider jail time for possession of such a deadly drug. It is nonsensical to restrict judges from considering all appropriate sanctions for possession of fentanyl. Proponents of Issue 1 claim that these are scare tactics, but these are simple facts. If Issue 1 passes, it would be very difficult to impose a penalty for the newly classified drug offenses.

The amendment completely undermines our current ability to encourage addicts to submit to treatment instead of suffering imprisonment and will have unintended consequences on Ohio’s Drug Courts, which have been proven to be effective with helping people with long-term recovery from drug addiction. Municipal Court judges understand the collateral consequences of jail and how it may disrupt recovery, employment and families. Issue 1 nullifies a judge’s ability to enforce treatment orders, which will result in fewer people going to or completing treatment.

This can have a serious effect on how Ohio fights future drug epidemics and it can encourage criminal activity, as there will be very limited consequence for possessing certain amounts of heroin, methamphetamines, LSD, fentanyl and other controlled substances. For example, if a person is convicted one time for possessing the date rape drug – which certainly does not indicate an addiction, but does indicate malicious and criminal behavior – they cannot go to jail as judges are prohibited from even considering jail as a sanction.

If Issue 1 passes, because it is a constitutional amendment and not a statute passed by the Ohio Legislature, it would be very difficult to make changes to it. Making this a constitutional amendment means not a single word can be changed without a subsequent amendment. The Ohio Legislature would be prohibited from creating any new laws to fix any unintended consequences from this poorly drafted amendment. Without another statewide ballot initiative, this amendment would be very difficult to fix.

As Franklin County Municipal Court judges, all 15 of us stand united in opposition to Issue 1. We believe that Issue 1 is bad for the residents of Franklin County and understand that Franklin County Prosecutor Ron O’Brien and Columbus City Attorney Zach Klein are discussing a bipartisan legislative plan to address some of the concerns raised by Issue 1 proponents. We welcome the opportunity to further this bipartisan alternative because it will allow courts to be even more effective in the administration of justice and giving those addicted the hope and opportunities they deserve.

 

Franklin County Municipal Court Judges

[smokin5s]

I'm all for 2nd chances. It's the 3rd, 4th, 5th, ECT ECT chances I'm not a fan of. If it's a non-violent drug offense then reduce it but tack it onto their next offense when it happens.....and it will happen.

typically by the time they get caught, it's already their 100th chance... Having dealt with people who sooner or later get caught for drug offenses... throw the fucking book at them... They do unforgivable things in the name of their next high (steal my father's wedding ring off of his dead hand at his funeral to pawn it for drug money) I have no place for people like that in my life.

[smokin5s]

Do you personally know someone who has a drug addiction?

 

Specifically a close family member or friend?

I have close family members as well as friends who have gone down this path.... I completely agree with Mark, Addition is not a Disease and being someone who's actually suffering from a DISEASE that will kill me some day, I take great offense when a drug addict or alcoholic says that they have a disease... ummm no, you CHOOSE to pick up that needle, smoke 'X' or drink whatever... I never once chose my disease... that's the difference, and I have no pity when someone blames a disease instead of their life choices. Grow up.

 

BTW, I used to drink way too much... my actual disease took that from me, I know if I drink, I die, guess what... haven't touched a drop in over 2 years now. I do what I have to in order to stay alive and see my kids grow and I don't ever say my drinking was a disease... because it was my choice, nothing else and now I choose to live.

[El Karacho1647545492]

I have close family members as well as friends who have gone down this path.... I completely agree with Mark, Addition is not a Disease and being someone who's actually suffering from a DISEASE that will kill me some day, I take great offense when a drug addict or alcoholic says that they have a disease... ummm no, you CHOOSE to pick up that needle, smoke 'X' or drink whatever... I never once chose my disease... that's the difference, and I have no pity when someone blames a disease instead of their life choices. Grow up.

 

BTW, I used to drink way too much... my actual disease took that from me, I know if I drink, I die, guess what... haven't touched a drop in over 2 years now. I do what I have to in order to stay alive and see my kids grow and I don't ever say my drinking was a disease... because it was my choice, nothing else and now I choose to live.

 

 

So literally the only thing that got you to stop drinking way too much was the prospect of immediate death; not the affect it had on your relationships, not the affect it had on your family, not the other, less-than-immediately-lethal health effects such as deterioration of mental functions?

 

 

All of those things weren't enough for you to stop, but "I WILL DIE" did.

 

 

Do you understand that the medical professionals whose work is currently keeping you alive are largely in agreement that alcoholism and drug abuse are diseases? Do you find it odd that you're willing to accept their advice that keeps you alive but aren't willing to accept their medically informed opinion that may save others and their families from the same fate you hope to shield your family from; the loss of their father/husband/brother/etc?

 

 

How about this, how about we treat your disease with the same callousness that you treat alcoholism and drug abuse? Because you, as a diseased person, are inherently a burden on society. Your disease doesn't get better? I mean, I get a cold and it fixes itself with a little Dayquil and rest, why doesn't your disease just go away like mine? Shit, all those silly scientists working on cures for cancer and AIDS and Alzheimer's and whatever your disease is should probably just refocus their efforts on making the strongest of us stronger. Diseased people should just understand their place in society, peacefully wait for death, and definitely not breed and risk passing on their obvious genetic deficiencies on to future generations. It's your CHOICE to continue to take resources for you and your family, when other people with better genetics should be given more resources so future generations are better able to succeed.

 

 

Yeah, pretty fucking ridiculous assessment when it's about you, right? Eugenics are bullshit but claiming alcoholics and drug abusers have simply chosen that path in life is just as insane.

 

 

You're also massively misunderstanding the argument about why treating it as a disease is important. It's not about divesting people of responsibility for their actions, it's about how best to treat the crisis facing us. It's been proven in many countries that treating drug abuse as a public health issue rather than a criminal issue leads to reduced incarceration rates, better individual health, and better societal welfare overall.

[smokin5s]

So literally the only thing that got you to stop drinking way too much was the prospect of immediate death; not the affect it had on your relationships, not the affect it had on your family, not the other, less-than-immediately-lethal health effects such as deterioration of mental functions?

 

 

All of those things weren't enough for you to stop, but "I WILL DIE" did.

 

 

Do you understand that the medical professionals whose work is currently keeping you alive are largely in agreement that alcoholism and drug abuse are diseases? Do you find it odd that you're willing to accept their advice that keeps you alive but aren't willing to accept their medically informed opinion that may save others and their families from the same fate you hope to shield your family from; the loss of their father/husband/brother/etc?

 

 

How about this, how about we treat your disease with the same callousness that you treat alcoholism and drug abuse? Because you, as a diseased person, are inherently a burden on society. Your disease doesn't get better? I mean, I get a cold and it fixes itself with a little Dayquil and rest, why doesn't your disease just go away like mine? Shit, all those silly scientists working on cures for cancer and AIDS and Alzheimer's and whatever your disease is should probably just refocus their efforts on making the strongest of us stronger. Diseased people should just understand their place in society, peacefully wait for death, and definitely not breed and risk passing on their obvious genetic deficiencies on to future generations. It's your CHOICE to continue to take resources for you and your family, when other people with better genetics should be given more resources so future generations are better able to succeed.

 

 

Yeah, pretty fucking ridiculous assessment when it's about you, right? Eugenics are bullshit but claiming alcoholics and drug abusers have simply chosen that path in life is just as insane.

 

 

You're also massively misunderstanding the argument about why treating it as a disease is important. It's not about divesting people of responsibility for their actions, it's about how best to treat the crisis facing us. It's been proven in many countries that treating drug abuse as a public health issue rather than a criminal issue leads to reduced incarceration rates, better individual health, and better societal welfare overall.

my drinking never effected my relationships... and no, it's insane for you to think that a choice is a fucking disease... You can choose to never pick up the bottle again, I cannot choose to just stop chemo and it all goes away. BIG difference.

 

ALCOHOLISM IS NOT A DISEASE, IT'S A CHOICE END OF STORY.

[El Karacho1647545492]

my drinking never effected my relationships

 

 

yes it did, you just don't know it. there's an opportunity cost to everything. the time you spent drinking too much was time you could've spent not drinking so much and doing something else. I'm not saying you're an alcoholic, I'm just trying to show you that you're thinking solely from your own point of view.

 

 

 

and no, it's insane for you to think that a choice is a fucking disease... You can choose to never pick up the bottle again, I cannot choose to just stop chemo and it all goes away. BIG difference.

 

ALCOHOLISM IS NOT A DISEASE, IT'S A CHOICE END OF STORY.

 

 

This is the misunderstanding; you can choose a life of sobriety and still be an alcoholic. That is the point.

 

 

A child who is born addicted to heroin did not have a choice. That child's body chemistry is always going to have a basis in drug abuse.

 

 

 

People who are introduced to drugs and alcohol before their body is fully developed, especially as young teens, are proven to have long term physiological differences from people who didn't have that experience. Their decision making is informed by the environment in which they're raised; if they're not raised to understand that alcohol and drug abuse has harmful long term effects they are not going to understand that the choice they make is going to have consequences. They just think that's normal.

 

 

This absurd notion that alcoholism is a choice comes from a complete lack of ability to see outside one's own experience. "I was able to stop drinking, therefore everyone should be able to stop drinking." You may have had challenges in your life that would make others crumble, but who are you to judge anyone else's struggle, just as no one else has the right to judge yours.

 

 

I wish you the best in your battle with cancer. We all have our own fights on the road toward death but it's not helpful to denigrate others for facing a different type of demon just because we don't understand it or didn't have a hard time facing it in our own journey.

[smokin5s]

yes it did, you just don't know it. there's an opportunity cost to everything. the time you spent drinking too much was time you could've spent not drinking so much and doing something else. I'm not saying you're an alcoholic, I'm just trying to show you that you're thinking solely from your own point of view.

 

Dude, you don't know me so you can't say if it actually affected my relationships or not. I've always had a great relationship with my children, Always gone to work every day, made sure food is on the table, roof over their heads, and flourished in my careers. I'm still married and my wife never has complained about my drinking. This is something that my body told me that was a problem. This again has nothing to do with the reality that drinking / drug abuse is a choice... my DISEASE is not. No one would ever choose to go through what I've gone through... the needles, the meds, the stays in the ICU, no one would ever choose it and if it was a choice of put the bottle down or go through it, they'd put the bottle or needle down or check them self into rehab. I'm not saying that getting clean isn't hard, its just not a disease.

 

Here's the definition of disease... sure doesn't sound like what you're wanting it to be... a disorder of structure or function in a human, animal, or plant, especially one that produces specific signs or symptoms or that affects a specific location and is not simply a direct result of physical injury.

[Geeto67]

They do unforgivable things in the name of their next high (steal my father's wedding ring off of his dead hand at his funeral to pawn it for drug money)

Well to be fair, it isn't like he was using it anymore....:gabe:

 

 

Here's the definition of disease... sure doesn't sound like what you're wanting it to be... a disorder of structure or function in a human, animal, or plant, especially one that produces specific signs or symptoms or that affects a specific location and is not simply a direct result of physical injury.

 

There is nothing in that "definition" that suggests or even hints at something being a choice not being a disease. In fact it make the opposite case - once the drugs make the physical and chemical changes in the human body that affects multiple specific locations (Primarily the brain) and produces symptoms.

 

https://books.google.com/books?id=kPQbBQAAQBAJ&pg=PT95&lpg=PT95&dq=disorder+of+structure+or+function+in+a+human,+animal,+or+plant,+especially+one+that+produces+specific+signs+or+symptoms+or+that+affects+a+specific+location+and+is+not+simply+a+direct+result+of+physical+injury.&source=bl&ots=uf9j9-x3Fn&sig=mdtz6GTcB1xACL4uGf-T-7u7-ss&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwig5vXLgt7dAhXKg-AKHRjFBigQ6AEwCXoECAoQAQ#v=onepage&q=disorder%20of%20structure%20or%20function%20in%20a%20human%2C%20animal%2C%20or%20plant%2C%20especially%20one%20that%20produces%20specific%20signs%20or%20symptoms%20or%20that%20affects%20a%20specific%20location%20and%20is%20not%20simply%20a%20direct%20result%20of%20physical%20injury.&f=false

 

 

you are choosing to look at drug abuse as a purely moral issue and choosing to ignore the medical aspects of it and frankly that's just not helping anybody. A good analogy to this drug use and disease are sexual STDs. The act that causes contraction is voluntary - nobody is forcing you to have sex, it's generally limited to this voluntary activity (you typically aren't getting an STD from anything else but sex), and you don't always contract the STD every time to have sex. Under your definition STDs aren't a disease if addiction isn't a disease.

[smokin5s]

Well to be fair, it isn't like he was using it anymore....:gabe:

 

 

 

 

There is nothing in that "definition" that suggests or even hints at something being a choice not being a disease. In fact it make the opposite case - once the drugs make the physical and chemical changes in the human body that affects multiple specific locations (Primarily the brain) and produces symptoms.

 

https://books.google.com/books?id=kPQbBQAAQBAJ&pg=PT95&lpg=PT95&dq=disorder+of+structure+or+function+in+a+human,+animal,+or+plant,+especially+one+that+produces+specific+signs+or+symptoms+or+that+affects+a+specific+location+and+is+not+simply+a+direct+result+of+physical+injury.&source=bl&ots=uf9j9-x3Fn&sig=mdtz6GTcB1xACL4uGf-T-7u7-ss&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwig5vXLgt7dAhXKg-AKHRjFBigQ6AEwCXoECAoQAQ#v=onepage&q=disorder%20of%20structure%20or%20function%20in%20a%20human%2C%20animal%2C%20or%20plant%2C%20especially%20one%20that%20produces%20specific%20signs%20or%20symptoms%20or%20that%20affects%20a%20specific%20location%20and%20is%20not%20simply%20a%20direct%20result%20of%20physical%20injury.&f=false

 

 

you are choosing to look at drug abuse as a purely moral issue and choosing to ignore the medical aspects of it and frankly that's just not helping anybody. A good analogy to this drug use and disease are sexual STDs. The act that causes contraction is voluntary - nobody is forcing you to have sex, it's generally limited to this voluntary activity (you typically aren't getting an STD from anything else but sex), and you don't always contract the STD every time to have sex. Under your definition STDs aren't a disease if addiction isn't a disease.

Negative ghost writer.... STD's are different and this is not a moral argument in my opinion... drugs / alcohol in order to get better all you have to do is stop and you choose to continue doing it... if you have the "burning down unda" stop fucking isn't going to make it go away, you have to go through treatment, get medication, etc... HUGE difference.

 

And I get you were joking about my dad's ring, but not cool man.

[Geeto67]

Negative ghost writer.... STD's are different and this is not a moral argument in my opinion... drugs / alcohol in order to get better all you have to do is stop and you choose to continue doing it... if you have the "burning down unda" stop fucking isn't going to make it go away, you have to go through treatment, get medication, etc... HUGE difference.

 

When talking about chemical dependency addiction - these things change your body. Long term Alcoholics suffer from withdrawal sickness as do opiate addicts - it literally causes them pain to stop putting the chemicals in their body. It also triggers chemicals in their brain to crave the chemicals compulsively. In extreme cases the withdrawal alone will kill them. It's hard to say they have a "choice" to just stop when facing all the symptoms of a disease.

 

nobody is saying that there aren't choices involved in how someone contracts this disease, but that is true of many diseases. The problem, as El Karacho pointed out, is that being dismissive of it as a "choice" because you are mad at the person or whatever doesn't help anything. It doesn't address treatment which is how these things get treated - which is medically.

 

 

And I get you were joking about my dad's ring, but not cool man.

 

yeah I knew it was tasteless, but I couldn't help my self. sorry.

[El Karacho1647545492]

When talking about chemical dependency addiction - these things change your body. Long term Alcoholics suffer from withdrawal sickness as do opiate addicts - it literally causes them pain to stop putting the chemicals in their body. It also triggers chemicals in their brain to crave the chemicals compulsively. In extreme cases the withdrawal alone will kill them. It's hard to say they have a "choice" to just stop when facing all the symptoms of a disease.

 

nobody is saying that there aren't choices involved in how someone contracts this disease, but that is true of many diseases. The problem, as El Karacho pointed out, is that being dismissive of it as a "choice" because you are mad at the person or whatever doesn't help anything. It doesn't address treatment which is how these things get treated - which is medically.

 

 

 

 

yeah I knew it was tasteless, but I couldn't help my self. sorry.

 

 

If anyone thinks that simply stopping the use of alcohol is the solution to alcoholism, Delirium Tremens would like a word:

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delirium_tremens

 

 

TL;DR if an alcoholic goes cold turkey off the booze, they can die. That doesn't happen with nicotine, cocaine, THC, and most other drugs of abuse.

 

 

"disorder of structure or function in a human, animal, or plant, especially one that produces specific signs or symptoms or that affects a specific location and is not simply a direct result of physical injury."

 

Mental diseases are a lot harder to define. Addiction is a mental disease and often is accompanied by other mental illness.

 

 

 

"Addiction is a disorder of function in a human brain which produces specific signs/symptoms such as alcohol or drug abuse."

[cstmg8]

Lost my father to alcoholism this past new years day. I don't care to type about at the moment, but it was a horrible and eye opening journey that we lost.

 

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

[cdk 4219]

You do no choose to be a red head, how tall you are, you do not choose to be light skinned, you also do not choose to be born with physical handicaps. Choosing to use a man made, or other toxin to degrade your life and others around you doesn’t allow you to define this as a disease. If alcohol, heroin, cocaine, methamphetamines, and other things weren’t an option would this possibly be a disease?

Social diseases are like getting hit by a train, staying off the train tracks will certainly help your odds of not crossing the train, but if you venture onto the tracks, the odds go up quickly. It’s always the small details that change the outcome in drastic ways.

 

Calling it a disease makes it someone else’s fault, which is socially acceptable. Understanding where the train tracks are and staying off seems the problem.