General Motors strike

[Cordell]

I’ll just put it out there, fuck unions. Yeah I said it. Stupid bastards are fucking up the lives of many normal people who have nothing to do with their godamn union.

 

As a public service announcement if anyone needs GM parts or warranty work done you’d better get into a dealership NOW. Parts supplies are getting low and GM’s warehouses aren’t shipping stock orders to dealers. Warehouse managers are shipping some stuff FedEx but that’s not working worth a fuck. The longer this goes on the worse it’ll be, they’re already over a week behind, and we’ve been told that once an agreement has been made the workers will not go back to work until all the paperwork has been done.

[zeitgeist57]

Scott - I'm starting to hear the same thing with GM dealers.

 

I believe in the concept of unions, but no corporation is going to be able to legitimately negotiate with so much UAW internal corruption going on. It's a hot mess that won't be solved with this strike.

 

It's a mess.

[Cordell]

It sounds like the union wants an awful lot. They already get great pay, and great benefits, and these people think they deserve so much more. Most of them simply bolt cars together. People wonder why these companies want to build shit outside of the US. This type of union greed will either bankrupt GM or cause them to keep moving manufacturing outside of the United States and Canada. It’s fucking stupid, meanwhile my peers and I aren’t getting work done because of this shit. These union workers make the cars that I have to fix and they get more then I do, how is that fair? Fuck them, fuck them all, move their goddamn jobs to China that’ll do them alot of good. :dumb:

[10phone2]

yea it sucks. sorry to hear that. When John Deere pulled out of dubuque, Iowa in the 80's.. folks found out real quick what they will get paid with no degree and no real skill instead of $20-$30 an hour plus a pension

[cstmg8]

I am a Union Elevator Mechanic that was not a Union fan before getting into the trade, and still disagree with a lot of the union philosophy/practice. I'm busy right now, but will definitely return to this thread in a bit for discussion.

I basically feel like there are different types of unions and very different levels of usefulness/corruption/pieces of shit.

Gov unions - shit

Factory unions -some shit, some not

Private sector unions - much less shit

 

Basically, if my union does bad work, we don't work. Customers are not captive to hire us, they can hire non union companies as well. This keeps us competitive and encourages training and quality work.

I need to do some reading on GMs union structure to make educated comments, but it sure seems like a lot of people would like to have the pay/benefits they carry. (If you can find the ones willing to work)

 

Like most things, greed and laziness ruin it.

[Geeto67]

yeah fuck unions, we should totally go back to the days when large corporations used local police to kill workers when they were insolent:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flint_sit-down_strike

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_worker_deaths_in_United_States_labor_disputes

 

 

Also fuck higher productivity, lower employee turnover, improved workplace communication, and a better-training that comes with a union.

 

Do you know why the UAW has so much power? It's because the culture of the big three is to fuck over their workers first and foremost. When they are prosperous they feed the top of the chain and not the workforce, when they are lean, they hurt the workforce to continue to feed the top. They over collateralize during production and then have to make massive cuts when the economy changes. It's depressing, but it's been a fight since the dawn of the automobile. Germany has unions and doesn't have this problem in BMW/ Mercedes/VAG, Japanese automakers don't have unions in most of their plants and their workers are pretty happy - because the corp doesn't treat them like shit. Current GM mgmt is light years from where they were just a decade ago, but they are still lagging behind the rest of the world.

 

Yes the UAW corruption sucks and it hurts everyone, esp the workers. But workers who have health insurance have it because of a union, companies have HR departments, and dispute resolution paths because of a union, if you have a living wage in your industry it is because of a union whether you are a member or not.

[2 Sweet]

It sounds like the union wants an awful lot. They already get great pay, and great benefits, and these people think they deserve so much more. Most of them simply bolt cars together. People wonder why these companies want to build shit outside of the US. This type of union greed will either bankrupt GM or cause them to keep moving manufacturing outside of the United States and Canada.

 

Yep. Sad, but true.

[cstmg8]

True, it'd be hard for anyone to argue that these companies would treat workers decently without the unions.

Cordell, I'm really surprised that they've never tried to unionize the mechanics. Do you Know any history behind that?

I suppose we could argue that these employees don't have to work there if they don't like it, But we all know it's not that simple and leads to a much larger discussion.

 

 

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

[Gergwheel1647545492]

yeah fuck unions, we should totally go back to the days when large corporations used local police to kill workers when they were insolent:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flint_sit-down_strike

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_worker_deaths_in_United_States_labor_disputes

 

 

Also fuck higher productivity, lower employee turnover, improved workplace communication, and a better-training that comes with a union.

 

Do you know why the UAW has so much power? It's because the culture of the big three is to fuck over their workers first and foremost. When they are prosperous they feed the top of the chain and not the workforce, when they are lean, they hurt the workforce to continue to feed the top. They over collateralize during production and then have to make massive cuts when the economy changes. It's depressing, but it's been a fight since the dawn of the automobile. Germany has unions and doesn't have this problem in BMW/ Mercedes/VAG, Japanese automakers don't have unions in most of their plants and their workers are pretty happy - because the corp doesn't treat them like shit. Current GM mgmt is light years from where they were just a decade ago, but they are still lagging behind the rest of the world.

 

Yes the UAW corruption sucks and it hurts everyone, esp the workers. But workers who have health insurance have it because of a union, companies have HR departments, and dispute resolution paths because of a union, if you have a living wage in your industry it is because of a union whether you are a member or not.

 

Somehow I knew you would show up and be pro-union. :dumb:

 

Honda of America Manufacturing doesn't have a union, and they have all the things you listed. know why? CAUSE THEY TREAT THEIR EMPLOYEES FAIRLY. GM used to be a piece of shit company that abused its workers and now they get to deal with the aftermath of being shitty.

 

I totally agree with Scott, this is definitely on the list of reasons why American jobs are moving to different countries. Unions basically will run a company into the ground and then they are left with no job and no union dues. very short sighted approach.

[Geeto67]

It sounds like the union wants an awful lot.

 

What is the "awful lot" they want exactly?

 

as far as I can tell the workers want:

 

- An end to the 2 tiered wage system. For those who don't know there are 2 classes of GM employee - pre 2007 "first tier" employees, and post 2007 "second tier" employees. The difference in pay can be as much as 45% an hour between the two employee classes for the same work. This system was fought for by the automakers to help recover from the recession (and ultimate bailout). But guess what, that happened a long time ago. The second tier workers are basically treated like short time employees - they can't transfer without losing benefits and seniority and are subject to pay cuts, while 1st tier workers don't have this problem at all.

 

doesn't sound like a lot to ask for GM to get rid of a pay relic that creates division in it's work force. It also doesn't sound like everyone at the big three get great pay or great benefits. GM has made record profits under this tier system, and could have gotten rid of it a while ago without affecting that, but let's feed the top and not the worker, amirite?

 

- they are also looking for job security. GM has closed a lot of plants recently, is this really asking a lot for the rest of the workers to want to...ya know...make sure they aren't next?

 

- a path for temp employees to become permanent. Temp employees get very little as compared to permanent employees, and not all temps want to become permanent, but for those that do, shouldn't there be a path like at a lot of other places? doesn't seem unreasonable to me.

 

- a standard wage increase to meet inflation, healthcare with lower costs, and profit sharing plan for more than executive level employees. Every other industry already has a lot of this stuff, why is GM lagging, and why is it "a lot" for people to want it.

 

 

the sad part is, I don't think UAW is going to win this one. GM has been chipping away at worker's leverage for decades. They carry high inventory and have moved a lot off shore so that even if a strike shut down all US production it would only affect 28% of GM's operations. Also even at a cost of $50-100 million per day, GM's profits are enough for them to wait it out for longer than the UAW's strike fund will last.

[cstmg8]

Somehow I knew you would show up and be pro-union. :dumb:

 

 

 

Honda of America Manufacturing doesn't have a union, and they have all the things you listed. know why? CAUSE THEY TREAT THEIR EMPLOYEES FAIRLY. GM used to be a piece of shit company that abused its workers and now they get to deal with the aftermath of being shitty.

Very true, and I don't feel sorry for GM one bit. I wish I knew if they would be any different now if given the chance. Although, I also agree that Honda, etc... Wouldn't offer the benefits they do if it weren't for the battle fought by the original labor unions.

America's real problem is this "too big to fail" problem we've run into. If GM goes under, there are a lot of Americans with no jobs and nowhere to get new ones. So, what's the answer to regulating what the unions can demand?

To me it sounds like Union workers who value their job and appreciate what they have need to be able to stand up to the union and work anyway or denounce it.

 

Geeto, what, if any, regulations are in place to prevent GM from offering a package to employees to go non-union? is there anything legally keeping them from offering what they feel is a fair wage and benefits package in return for being a non-union employee? a surprising number of people may choose this over losing their jobs.

 

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

[cstmg8]

What is the "awful lot" they want exactly?

 

 

 

as far as I can tell the workers want:

 

 

 

- An end to the 2 tiered wage system. For those who don't know there are 2 classes of GM employee - pre 2007 "first tier" employees, and post 2007 "second tier" employees. The difference in pay can be as much as 45% an hour between the two employee classes for the same work. This system was fought for by the automakers to help recover from the recession (and ultimate bailout). But guess what, that happened a long time ago. The second tier workers are basically treated like short time employees - they can't transfer without losing benefits and seniority and are subject to pay cuts, while 1st tier workers don't have this problem at all.

 

 

 

doesn't sound like a lot to ask for GM to get rid of a pay relic that creates division in it's work force. It also doesn't sound like everyone at the big three get great pay or great benefits. GM has made record profits under this tier system, and could have gotten rid of it a while ago without affecting that, but let's feed the top and not the worker, amirite?

 

 

 

- they are also looking for job security. GM has closed a lot of plants recently, is this really asking a lot for the rest of the workers to want to...ya know...make sure they aren't next?

 

 

 

- a path for temp employees to become permanent. Temp employees get very little as compared to permanent employees, and not all temps want to become permanent, but for those that do, shouldn't there be a path like at a lot of other places? doesn't seem unreasonable to me.

 

 

 

- a standard wage increase to meet inflation, healthcare with lower costs, and profit sharing plan for more than executive level employees. Every other industry already has a lot of this stuff, why is GM lagging, and why is it "a lot" for people to want it.

 

 

 

 

 

the sad part is, I don't think UAW is going to win this one. GM has been chipping away at worker's leverage for decades. They carry high inventory and have moved a lot off shore so that even if a strike shut down all US production it would only affect 28% of GM's operations. Also even at a cost of $50-100 million per day, GM's profits are enough for them to wait it out for longer than the UAW's strike fund will last.

Do you think there is much chance that the tier one employees would take a pay cut to a more appropriate range somewhere between current tier 1 and tier 2? If it meant an equal wage for all? Doubt it.

 

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

[iwashmycar]

If the core problem is that it needs the unions because it is a shitty company, it needed to go under back in 2008 as 'nature' intended.

[Geeto67]

Somehow I knew you would show up and be pro-union. :dumb:

 

Honda of America Manufacturing doesn't have a union, and they have all the things you listed. know why? CAUSE THEY TREAT THEIR EMPLOYEES FAIRLY.

 

you and I agree on this. I even said it - Japan doesn't have a union and doesn't have worker problems because they aren't a piece of shit.

 

GM used to be a piece of shit company that abused its workers and now they get to deal with the aftermath of being shitty.

 

No GM is still a piece of shit company, just because they were a bigger piece of shit in the past doesn't mean they stopped. Don't let ford and chrylser off the hook too - they are equally as bad, just GM is bigger.

 

I totally agree with Scott, this is definitely on the list of reasons why American jobs are moving to different countries. Unions basically will run a company into the ground and then they are left with no job and no union dues. very short sighted approach.

 

bullshit, American jobs are moving because of a lot of things, not just unions. And guess what, lots of businesses are coming here. In the last 20 years we have seen all the Japanese automakers and some of the Germans open plants here, and the prospect of a union isn't' scaring them any. GM, Ford, and Chrysler are global brands now, and the biggest driver of foreign plants is really being competitive in foreign markets, not running away from the unions.

 

You want to hate the Corruption at the UAW, be my guest, I hate it too and I hate it more than the american auto mfgs, because they were charged with protecting the workers and they abused that. But even with corruption they still do good things for the workers.

[Geeto67]

Do you think there is much chance that the tier one employees would take a pay cut to a more appropriate range somewhere between current tier 1 and tier 2? If it meant an equal wage for all? Doubt it.

 

is that the only solution? I don't think so, neither does GM and neither does the union. The core of that issue isn't the wage, it's the flexibility and benefits. GM already has the same regular tier'ed pay scale that the military and most large companies have by job function, why do they need the pre and post 2007 qualifier as well that allows them to discriminate on something arbitrary like pre and post recession?

 

If there is going to be headway made here, the workers know there is going to have to be some kind of concession, wage reduction, maybe even layoffs. Assuming they can make headway at all.

[2 Sweet]

GM used to be a piece of shit company that abused its workers and now they get to deal with the aftermath of being shitty.

 

Very true, and I don't feel sorry for GM one bit.

 

GM is still a piece of shit company, just because they were a bigger piece of shit in the past doesn't mean they stopped.

 

Interesting. Can you guys elaborate on this? I know several people that worked for GM for many years, and they all say the exact opposite

[cstmg8]

Interesting. Can you guys elaborate on this? I know several people that worked for GM for many years, and they all say the exact opposite

I believe they followed the same labor practices as most factories in the early days of industry, it's not hard to find articles about early strikes and conditions.

My opinion is based more on the business practices. They simply followed a business/financial plan that didn't make sense. If your projections for future revenue can't cover the promises you're making today, then don't make them.

Some of this can be blamed on the union asking for too much, and they're paying for that as well. I ultimately hold GM responsible though, as they signed the contract. If they are going to agree to terms then they need to make sure that they can adhere to them. If it means not signing and more down time, that's the price of doing business.

I'm sure there are many happy people at GM, and most of those probably don't agree with the strike.

 

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

[Cordell]

“They want job security”, well no shit, everybody wants job security. GM is supposed to keep plants open when the product made it that plant doesn’t sell? I’m that makes sense.

 

“They all want paid the same”, yeah okay, they want the same $30-40 and hour as the tier 1 employees, they also want 97% of their healthcare covered. These things are all way above national averages and is fucking ridiculous.

 

 

Whoever above me said they are in the elevator union, makes a good point, these type construction/service unions aren’t nearly as bad because people don’t have to use them. GM on the other hand is bound to use the UAW to produce cars in this country, this is more what I am referring to.

 

 

Geeto- you honestly think unions are necessary today? Labor laws that were non-existent when unions first formed, and modern society where killing people is not tolerated on any level are what make unions the relic. Modern unions are a leftover leach on society, making it easy for people to be complacent and lazy, you want to earn good money use your fucking head, get educated, find better things to do then just bolt cars together. Unions are too similar to socialism for me, so again I say fuck them.

[Geeto67]

Interesting. Can you guys elaborate on this? I know several people that worked for GM for many years, and they all say the exact opposite

 

a lot of what cstmg8, said about historical practices. Only let's not forget that some of those practices were employees were not permitted to talk to each other (even on break), overwork it's employees, run an onerous company store that kept the worker in debt, hire and fire at will for any discriminatory reason (like race, gender, etc). cut pay, not pay over time, and if employees struck they would have striker breakers and the police beat the crap out of them. During the 1936 flint sit down strike, 14 employees were shot and injured (not killed) by police. They would actively threaten, menace, and intimidate employees who showed signs of unionizing or asking for increase in wages or conditions.

 

Just because everyone was doing it (and lets not forget the may coal strikes in ohio where strike breakers killed women and children) doesn't mean we should normalize that behavior and not pretend that those companies would go back to it in a second if all restrictions were removed. Also let's not forget that some of these practices lasted well into the 1980's. But that's the past....

 

 

These days if you are an employee at GM, life probably feels pretty good. There is a union, benefits, decent hours, worker safety, some flexibility depending on position, provided you were hired pre-2007. A lot of their problems these days stem from corporate culture, how they value employees, how they value management, and how that affects whole swaths of workers.

 

For a long time GM was (and still is to a degree) decentralized which made corporate changes hard to implement, and led to a lot of plant closures when those plants resisted a change in direction. They tend to hamper employee movement and transfer in the company (an issue in the 2 tier system) which lends itself to a workforce that is static and also suffers when they can't relocate and have to close a plant. They sometimes over-hire and in the past have made bad deals with the union, to try and reduce worker cost without really affecting the upper management pay scale.

 

compared to other plants, GM workers get paid slightly less than those at toyota or honda (about $1 difference per hour on average) while their benefits are slightly better than that of the others (unless you are one of those post 2007 employees then you are under par). However, the GM executive management earns twice to three times what executives at the japanese automakers make. Toyota's CEO, Akio Toyoda, makes the lowest CEO salary and also has the highest returns on efficiency and productivity. Why? reinvestment in the company, in worker safety, in productivity and efficiency, and diversification of the business to make it less susceptible to market fluctuation.

 

GM does some of this, but not to the same scale and the money it saves goes into the upper management's pocket as compensation. Because of this feed the top model, the company is more prone to market fluctuations, regulatory violations, and general malaise and corporate mediocrity - all of which impact workers the most.

 

GM isn't the only one to blame in this. The Union has at times asked for some pretty onerous things, but usually it got that leverage by GM breaking some law or doing something that ran against public opinion. the UAW is always at a slight disadvantage to GM unless there is some extenuating circumstances.

 

When your nearest foreign competitor is paying their management 1/10 of what you are paying yours, and for that extra money your managers are trying to skint the workers on some benefit or wage that others in the market have to save money and justify their expensive salary - it's not hard to see what the issue is.

[Geeto67]

 

Geeto- you honestly think unions are necessary today? Labor laws that were non-existent when unions first formed, and modern society where killing people is not tolerated on any level are what make unions the relic. Modern unions are a leftover leach on society, making it easy for people to be complacent and lazy, you want to earn good money use your fucking head, get educated, find better things to do then just bolt cars together. Unions are too similar to socialism for me, so again I say fuck them.

 

yes I do think unions are still necessary today, but I do think they need to evolve somewhat.

 

For starters, unions do drive a lot of labor laws as a lobbying group. While I do detest our money based and semi transparent lobbying system on the whole, I do find that they they are still the largest advocate for worker safety and soundness in the government. Also a lot of labor laws are at the state or local level and there is a lot of inconsistency, unions help smooth out those wrinkles by pushing for an agreed to standard that meets all state requirements.

 

two national issues which they are poised to address are wealth inequality and automation. Maybe the unions need to pivot more and be worker assistance for phasing out jobs (retraining, etc...which a lot do but can still step up their efforts).

 

But I think one area they are gaining relevance is in emergent tech, and some of the "innovative" business structures some tech companies utilize to avoid even having "employees". A prime example of this is Uber/Lyft where they classify their drivers as "independent contractors" and as such the drivers are collectively trying to negotiate on Uber practices such as shorting the driver and not having a voice in dispute resolution. It's a fight right out of the pre-union days, complete with union busters.

 

The UAW will and always be a bad case for unions because it is plagued with corruption, which by the way is mostly the people in charge of the union stealing from it's coffers. Yes that hurts workers, and it sometimes put the UAW in a position to negotiate more aggressively to feed the pipeline, but the core mission is still there and still functioning. the problem with the UAW and the big three is trust and scale - both entities have acted in bad faith so often in the past, it's hard for them to fully trust each other and a lot of public grandstanding to help leverage position, and the other thing is that GM is just too big and their culture too ingrained for UAW to drive for the meaningful change that really needs to happen - lower executive management pay and a reinvestment in the business model toward efficiency and safety.

 

At the end of the day though, workers will always need a representative, because it's very rare that in a large corporation a worker will have any leverage to negotiate their position or safety with the company. Without a union they don't have that representation.

[2 Sweet]

......

 

So GM is a shit company that deserves to go bankrupt because of stuff they (and everyone else) did 40, 60, 80 years ago? I know that's not what you're saying, but some folks seem to feel that way and I don't think that's a fair judgement.

 

One thing I know is that my grandfather worked at GM on the assembly line from 1948 until he retired in 1984. Nothing but great things to say about his time at GM. Same story for his buddies. Same story for my wife's uncle who retired from GM a couple years ago. If you ask him, he'll tell you many of his co-workers had a cake job and were drastically overpaid.

[Gergwheel1647545492]

If you ask him, he'll tell you many of his co-workers had a cake job and were drastically overpaid.

 

This is all 100% because of the Unions. I know people that have "retired" by 40 just due to being drastically over paid for a cake job.

[Cordell]

If you ask him, he'll tell you many of his co-workers had a cake job and were drastically overpaid.

 

This is all well and good for those who have it. For the people outside looking in, and the non-union people they have to deal with it’s pretty lame.

 

Ultimately I don’t think either side is sustainable. I feel it’s likely going to be GM getting around the UAW by manufacturing elsewhere. Meanwhile nothing is going to be very good in the short term.

[Otis Nice]

GMLOL.

 

If you ask him, he'll tell you many of his co-workers had a cake job and were drastically overpaid.

 

Sounds like they screwed future generations.

[Geeto67]

So GM is a shit company that deserves to go bankrupt because of stuff they (and everyone else) did 40, 60, 80 years ago? I know that's not what you're saying, but some folks seem to feel that way and I don't think that's a fair judgement.

 

No. Look I come from a GM (specifically Chevrolet) family. I am sympathetic to GM, and always look at their products when considering a car, even if they don't have a product that speaks to me.

 

I don't think they deserve to go bankrupt at all, but I do think it will happen again in my lifetime. I am probably in the minority here in thinking that the bailout was a good thing that ended up being executed poorly in the end (the taxpayer losing money in the sale part anyway), because it helped stabilize the economy quicker.

 

yeah I don't think it's fair, or accurate to say they should go bankrupt because of the sins of the past. I do think it is fair to say they haven't learned their lesson from the past and some traditions that are alive and well today at GM that will continue to hurt them, such as their management first culture. I think Mary Barra has been the best thing GM has seen in mgmt since Bunkie Knudsen. I think she is changing a lot of that, but as recent layoffs and the shutoff issue from a few years back have shown, I don't think enough has changed yet.

 

One thing I know is that my grandfather worked at GM on the assembly line from 1948 until he retired in 1984. Nothing but great things to say about his time at GM. Same story for his buddies. Same story for my wife's uncle who retired from GM a couple years ago. If you ask him, he'll tell you many of his co-workers had a cake job and were drastically overpaid.

 

GM has historically employed millions of people, so it's fair to say a lot of them probably had a very positive experience. However, your grandfather probably didn't work at the Van Nuys Plant in the 80's or maybe he was at the Lordstown plant in 1972 but thinks of it fondly, and in 1948 he missed by 3 years the war effort which suspended all workers rights claims until after the war, and subjected employees to dangerous conditions like improperly handling radium (which was known to be toxic at the time) which caused a lot of workers to be injured without recourse. Or maybe he thinks of it fondly because GM management in the 80's was lax about employee welfare, esp drug and alcohol use in their assembly plants, as long as the factory kept churning units (not saying he was drunk or anything, just that he was probably left alone to do his job). Again it's a matter of perspective, if i am a worker and my boss doesn't hassle me about having a beer at lunch and operating a heavy piece of equipment right after, I'd think it was a pretty sweet gig too, even though it's bad for product, bad for the company, and bad for the workers as a whole.

 

I am hard on GM because I want them to be best. But lets not blame the workers and the unions for a company that didn't learn from it's past.