stargazer Posted November 15, 2009 Report Share Posted November 15, 2009 Very Cool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tpoppa Posted November 15, 2009 Report Share Posted November 15, 2009 Very Cool.It sure could have been.Not only did HD kill Buell, they killed the American Sportbike industry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stargazer Posted November 15, 2009 Report Share Posted November 15, 2009 Maybe not permanently. You never know. It couldn't have been worse timing though w/ the economy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InyaAzz Posted November 15, 2009 Report Share Posted November 15, 2009 If I read correctly, HD owns the Buell name. If Eric wants to start over, he'll have to buy it back (probably not gonna happen) or create a new entity. Same probably goes for the technology.Reading this story just pisses me off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tpoppa Posted November 15, 2009 Report Share Posted November 15, 2009 Erik still owns 2% of Buell, it's not clear if he still retained patents or intellectual property. He very likely signed a non-compete agreement when he sold interests to HD. So his hands may be tied for 2 or 3 years.Apparently the 1199cc bike was real. It was going to be the Buell Barracuda and was scheduled to be released 7/2011. With significantly less weight & more HP than the 1125R, it would have to use some expensive materials. It would probably be priced to compete with Duc 1198 models.I think everyone can point out reasons why HD and sportbikes are not a good fit. But, it's a mystery why HD would choose to close Buell and make no attempt to sell the brand. In the last month, several groups have made proposals to buy Buell, HD still maintains Buell will not be sold. If you read HDs financial results, HD is in bad shape. HD Finance is losing TONS of cash with subprime loans. It's not like Buell technology or Rotox motors will ever find thier way into an Electra Glide. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stargazer Posted November 16, 2009 Report Share Posted November 16, 2009 I don't know? I subscribe to M/C Consumer news. They had a blurp in there about Buell closing as they went to print. The comment was ( From H/D corporate)" MV Agusta is a stand alone company and can be sold off. Buell, however is too entrenched in Harley Davidson to sell it off." They commented that in order to lean the Company out a little and cut loss, they were going back to their strengths and focusing on what they sell the most of..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tpoppa Posted November 16, 2009 Report Share Posted November 16, 2009 I don't know? I subscribe to M/C Consumer news. They had a blurp in there about Buell closing as they went to print. The comment was ( From H/D corporate)" MV Agusta is a stand alone company and can be sold off. Buell, however is too entrenched in Harley Davidson to sell it off." They commented that in order to lean the Company out a little and cut loss, they were going back to their strengths and focusing on what they sell the most of.....Similair quotes have been made by HD spokes-people...Buell is too entrenched, too deeply integrated, etc. I formally call shenanigans. In this age of mergers and spinoffs, much more complicated business actions take place all the time. I personally have been involved in 2 of them. GM sold Hummer, Ford is trying to sell Volvo, etc. I fully understand why HD wants to keep control of the XB mill. But what is 'integrated' about the 1125. There is not 1 part that is common between the 1125 and any HD model. All 1125 parts are made by Buell or sourced from a vendor...not 1 part is made by HD. HD has also said they don't want to let an outside business entitiy gain access to their dealer network. Again, I fully understand that reasoning. However, the groups that are trying to buy Buell have already stated that would not want any access to HD dealers. If I had HOG stock, I would require much better answer from HDI's board or directors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stargazer Posted November 16, 2009 Report Share Posted November 16, 2009 I agree. But they didn't have MV's in the showroom next to the Electraglides like the Buells maybe its nothing more than a control issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InyaAzz Posted November 16, 2009 Report Share Posted November 16, 2009 Whatever the reason, we lose. HD can suck it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benyen Soljax Posted November 16, 2009 Report Share Posted November 16, 2009 i just checked with the AAFES harley dealer and they had a big sale on Buells about a month ago. none left Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zach Posted November 16, 2009 Report Share Posted November 16, 2009 they killed the American Sportbike industry You presume it was alive to begin with.A company that bleeds millions of dollars a year can't survive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tpoppa Posted November 16, 2009 Report Share Posted November 16, 2009 (edited) A company that bleeds millions of dollars a year can't survive.You are referring to HD, correct? Buell was not closed for financial reasons.http://dalefranks.com/cycles/index.php/2009/08/a-rare-tactical-mistake-an-ongoing-strategic-problem/pt 2http://dalefranks.com/cycles/?p=837btw, This was written before the announcement to close Buell. Edited November 16, 2009 by Tpoppa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redkow97 Posted November 16, 2009 Report Share Posted November 16, 2009 Erik still owns 2% of Buell, it's not clear if he still retained patents or intellectual property. He very likely signed a non-compete agreement when he sold interests to HD. So his hands may be tied for 2 or 3 years.If I were Erik Buell, I would challenge that non-compete (although I agree with you, it likely does exist).the 3 basic requirements for an enforceable non-compete are:- it must be for a reasonable amount of time (3 years is pretty standard)- in must be within a reasonable geographical area (since HD sells nation-wide, the entire US might be fair game, but in places where HD doesn't sell bikes, he could sell there)- HD must prove that it's likely Buell would actually reduce their sales (basically proving Buell is true "competition.")that last point is VERY debatable, and I'd love to see them argue it. I can't think of anyone who has ever gone shopping for a Harley (or any cruiser) and ended up buying a buell... The XB line would almost definitely be off limits for continued sale, but as noted, the 1125 has no ties to HD. I don't think it competes even the slightest bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kahooli Posted November 16, 2009 Report Share Posted November 16, 2009 I dont think HD could possibly win the argument that a buell sportbike is a directly competing market against an HD cruiser.It's like saying my VW GTi competes against ford trucks on a direct level. Seriously. different f*cking cars.Also, I would love to see Ford motors hire Erik Buell to begin designing a Ford motorbike line ^.^Yeah yeah don't flame me too much. I think Ford may not be a honda or toyota in terms of economy but they are a quality vehicle. period. all vehicles have their hiccups. (honda 2000-2002 civic automatic xmissions failing after... 30k miles?)Plus Ford is the only US automaker in financial position to start such a venture. It won't happen, but it sure would be interesting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tpoppa Posted November 16, 2009 Report Share Posted November 16, 2009 I dont think HD could possibly win the argument that a buell sportbike is a directly competing market against an HD cruiser.It's like saying my VW GTi competes against ford trucks on a direct level. Seriously. I tend to agree with that statement. But you may be surpised to know that some top execs @ HD had become VERY resentful that Buell was cannibalizing HD sales. That was 1 of the driving forces behind the Buell closure.Question: Are you at all suprised at the timing of this closure? --Buell just won the AMA Supersport Title - Whether you agree that the 1125 belonged there or not, it proved it was at least as good as a 600cc I4 on the track. It was the best performing Buell to date.--The Buell Barracuda was ready for production (The yellow 1199cc bike in the pic). The costs for the investment in development were already incurred. It was to be released 7/2011 & was to compete in WSBK.--Although only 3% of HDI sales, Buell was holding it's own. Buell sales were growing significantly faster than HD (I'm speaking percentages) & seemed to be poised for additional growth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shittygsxr Posted November 16, 2009 Report Share Posted November 16, 2009 I dont think HD could possibly win the argument that a buell sportbike is a directly competing market against an HD cruiser.It's like saying my VW GTi competes against ford trucks on a direct level. Seriously. different f*cking cars.Also, I would love to see Ford motors hire Erik Buell to begin designing a Ford motorbike line ^.^Yeah yeah don't flame me too much. I think Ford may not be a honda or toyota in terms of economy but they are a quality vehicle. period. all vehicles have their hiccups. (honda 2000-2002 civic automatic xmissions failing after... 30k miles?)Plus Ford is the only US automaker in financial position to start such a venture. It won't happen, but it sure would be interesting.mine waited 70k miles to fail, out of warranty, and they gave me a new transmission anyways. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unk Greg Posted November 16, 2009 Report Share Posted November 16, 2009 Anybody see this???http://thekneeslider.com/archives/2009/11/14/what-was-buell-working-on-when-the-end-came/What was Buell Working on When the End Came?Speculation about the bike indicates a displacement of 1199cc with much less weight and more horsepower than the current 1125R, it's the kind of bike you would build if you were planning on World Super Bike competition, or more to the point, the bike you would build as a true, no compromise, world class American sport bike.Yeah I did, but with the second pic....too bad.http://hellforleathermagazine.com/2009/11/buell-the-potential-and-the-fa.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InyaAzz Posted November 16, 2009 Report Share Posted November 16, 2009 Looks like a Firebolt with a full fairing. Not that it's a bad thing. I think the Firebolt is a nice looking bike. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tpoppa Posted November 16, 2009 Report Share Posted November 16, 2009 That is exactly what HD thinks of anything that is not covered in chrome and leather tassels. But to be honest, that picture is from a test facility. Those were test bikes with no VINs, and were not available for sale. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncle Punk Posted November 17, 2009 Report Share Posted November 17, 2009 http://dalefranks.com/cycles/index.php/2009/11/st-and-atk-get-inside-the-harley-dealer-network/http://dalefranks.com/cycles/index.php/2009/11/atk-st-deal-update/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InyaAzz Posted November 17, 2009 Report Share Posted November 17, 2009 I'm gonna ride my Buell through the front window of LE HD.This is just a kick in the nuts. Unbelievable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disclaimer Posted November 17, 2009 Report Share Posted November 17, 2009 Wow... that just makes me sick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disclaimer Posted November 17, 2009 Report Share Posted November 17, 2009 Don't forget to ring the damn bell, f*(kers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V4junkie Posted November 17, 2009 Report Share Posted November 17, 2009 Love this quote from that second article I did not intend to imply that this was part of any strategy on the part of Harley-Davidson. This is something at will operate purely at the dealer level with some select dealers, and any advantages that accrue to the Motor Company will be more or less incidental.And, of course, implying that HD itself was part of this would imply that HD actually had a strategy. Which, after the MV Agusta deal and the closing down of Buell, is a pretty questionable implication. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tpoppa Posted November 17, 2009 Report Share Posted November 17, 2009 (edited) I don't want to sound all conspiracy theory, but real reasons for the Buell closure are about to be released. It's more related to bruised ego's than $'s.It has to do with hurt feelings over the HD VR1000 team's failures & Buell winning the AMA title this year. Basically "Buell was told (by HD) that if they had a hair on their ass they'd try playing in Supersport." HD was expecting Buell to fall flat on their face. Any pressure on DMG to allow the 1125 to compete was due to this.So Buell was allowed to compete. They did very well, and won. They did it with about 1/5 the budget that some higher ups at HD used to completely mis-manage the VR1000 racing program. "That REALLY pissed some folks off at Harley-Davidson" and was likely the catalyst for the Buell closing.The Buell Barracuda is ready for production and to compete in WSBK. Some top HD execs did not let that happen. You think there are Buell/sportbike haters at HD dealers, they have nothing on HD mangement. ..........Buell........Harley. These are bikes sales $$ x 10002003 * 76,064 * 3,621,488 2004 * 79,029 * 3,928,232 2005 * 93,069 * 4,183,515 2006 * 102,227 * 4,553,561 2007 * 100,534 * 4,446,637 2008 * 123,086 * 4,278,241 Over these years Buell had 61.8% growth, HD had 18.1% growth. The closure wasn't about $$$.Now watch this video again http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5i7JDNACtIIf you are not familiar with the VR1000 mess, this is a good read:http://www.superbikeplanet.com/vr1000_obit.htm If you search for 'Buell' in the blog that UP mentions above, there are some very good articles.I don't claim to know the entire story, but I know enough that I am comfortable repeating it. Remember you heard it here first;) Edited November 17, 2009 by Tpoppa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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