Moto-Brian Posted October 29, 2009 Report Share Posted October 29, 2009 Not being a critic. Just saying that rider error caused the crash. Loading the front and while the tire could have been cold, in three to four laps, it shouldn't be to a point to come out from under you. You load the front with throttle or brake. Basic stuff...He runs warmers... Tires should have been up to temp by that stage. Hell, even so, if they weren't, he still caused the issue. Blaming it on cold tires is clouding the fact that the rider caused it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moto-Brian Posted October 29, 2009 Report Share Posted October 29, 2009 Grattan. Temps were 45-50 degrees. Notice the winter gloves and hoody sweat shirt. Michelin 2CTs...Photo by Jig Moore of Heavy Penny PhotographyGrattan. Too cold to remember, but early morning session. Frost on windscreen, frost on the grass. No warmers. Pilot Power One Commercials...Photo by Jig Moore of Heavy Penny PhotographyWe literally had next to no crashes due to cold weather. There were some that crashed due to tucking the front and one from a rear end breaking loose and high siding. Thing is simple. Throttle control and less trail breaking will lead to better results. I've told our customers this before... Cold weather on cold tires should be approached like rain or wet weather riding. Braking done early, proper throttle application at mid corner and on exit.Smooth and consistant will win out every time. As the temps get better, the aggression can increase. Ability tends to dictate at what level that aggression suits the rider in question... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rusty Posted October 29, 2009 Report Share Posted October 29, 2009 Bottom line anyone who tracks enough knows how easy it is to make a small mistake that causes you to go down. It is easy to be a Monday morning quarterback! Awesome bike Mike. You've inspired me to track mine next year. what ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vw151 Posted October 29, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 29, 2009 (edited) Not being a critic. Just saying that rider error caused the crash. Loading the front and while the tire could have been cold, in three to four laps, it shouldn't be to a point to come out from under you. You load the front with throttle or brake. Basic stuff...He runs warmers... Tires should have been up to temp by that stage. Hell, even so, if they weren't, he still caused the issue. Blaming it on cold tires is clouding the fact that the rider caused it.I think he fully accepts it was rider error but also feels he was pushing a little hard for the track temp. Not blaming the track temp for the error. What you didn't see in the video is that he actually went off track the lap before which could have contributed to cooling the tires. Again a problem due to rider error. I agree though, all of these things can be overcome with proper technique but it takes awhile to really master that stuff that is for sure. I'm not calling anyone out, I just think it's funny, I was waiting for people to start picking the video apart that's all. Earlier this summer there were some ex-AMA riders turned instructors at Mid-OH sponsored by buell and they made a lot of really good points about track riding, when and how to brake, and how to pick up the throttle. One of the interesting points they made was this stuff doesn't matter as much at a moderate lean angle but when you really pick up the pace and get going at close to race pace and the lean angle increases all of these things, namely smoothness, really can be the difference between going through the corner fast or ending up in the grass which is why it is important to learn before you go fast. In theory it all made tons of sense but when you get out on the track (even after about 7 track days for me) it's a lot more difficult to execute than it looks. I plan to keep working on it and trying to avoid what happened to mike but I'm sure I'll crash again on the track. It's inevitable right.All that aside I think mike's technique is pretty solid. He just made a mistake and may have been riding a little out of his league for the conditions. It's just like the instructor said, the finer points of the technique won't bite you until the conditions get more interesting. The perfect technique allows you to run fast on worn out tires, cold track and at a big lean angle, if your technique is flawed you can't go so fast unless the conditions are better. It all makes sense. Brian, I'm sure you have it down, didn't you used to ride AMA or something? Edited October 29, 2009 by vw151 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V4junkie Posted October 29, 2009 Report Share Posted October 29, 2009 ^ part of the reason why I want a short turn throttle but know I can't handle it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vw151 Posted October 29, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 29, 2009 ^ part of the reason why I want a short turn throttle but know I can't handle it.Yah, it's all about smoothness, the pros are amazing being able to use all that trick and just angry stuff and still be smooth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moto-Brian Posted October 30, 2009 Report Share Posted October 30, 2009 I think he fully accepts it was rider error but also feels he was pushing a little hard for the track temp. Not blaming the track temp for the error. What you didn't see in the video is that he actually went off track the lap before which could have contributed to cooling the tires. Again a problem due to rider error. I agree though, all of these things can be overcome with proper technique but it takes awhile to really master that stuff that is for sure. I'm not calling anyone out, I just think it's funny, I was waiting for people to start picking the video apart that's all. Earlier this summer there were some ex-AMA riders turned instructors at Mid-OH sponsored by buell and they made a lot of really good points about track riding, when and how to brake, and how to pick up the throttle. One of the interesting points they made was this stuff doesn't matter as much at a moderate lean angle but when you really pick up the pace and get going at close to race pace and the lean angle increases all of these things, namely smoothness, really can be the difference between going through the corner fast or ending up in the grass which is why it is important to learn before you go fast. In theory it all made tons of sense but when you get out on the track (even after about 7 track days for me) it's a lot more difficult to execute than it looks. I plan to keep working on it and trying to avoid what happened to mike but I'm sure I'll crash again on the track. It's inevitable right.All that aside I think mike's technique is pretty solid. He just made a mistake and may have been riding a little out of his league for the conditions. It's just like the instructor said, the finer points of the technique won't bite you until the conditions get more interesting. The perfect technique allows you to run fast on worn out tires, cold track and at a big lean angle, if your technique is flawed you can't go so fast unless the conditions are better. It all makes sense. Brian, I'm sure you have it down, didn't you used to ride AMA or something?Yes, I was directing the Buell Days with Ken and Nick. The point they were making is that you need to focus on the basics, really. The fact remains however that when at a pace that is quicker, you need to be more precise in what you do. The inputs you put into the bike are more important the faster you go. Ability will get you through ANY condition. The conditions will certainly make things tougher, but adapting and riding to suit is again ability. Think riding in the rain vs. the dry... Takes a bit more ability to ride it fast when wet, right? You can still ride in the rain at 4 minutes a lap, but to do it at half that pace takes a higher level of ability...The fact remains that even if the tires did cool, inputs are important. He rolled off or trailed too much brake. It really is that simple... Less roll off or less trail (Getting more done up and down vs. full lean, etc.) would have resulted in not falling down. He loaded the front. It's basic Physics.As for me running AMA, yes... Wasn't any good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gixxie750 Posted October 30, 2009 Report Share Posted October 30, 2009 i like learning all conditions. I will ride in cold,wet,dry,storming,ice everytime because u can learn allot doing so. We all make mistakes and this rider was lucky enough to catch it on tape to review and learn from. We ALL are still learning and learning will never stop. Even Rossi leearns still. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vw151 Posted October 30, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 30, 2009 Yes, I was directing the Buell Days with Ken and Nick. The point they were making is that you need to focus on the basics, really. The fact remains however that when at a pace that is quicker, you need to be more precise in what you do. The inputs you put into the bike are more important the faster you go. Ability will get you through ANY condition. The conditions will certainly make things tougher, but adapting and riding to suit is again ability. Think riding in the rain vs. the dry... Takes a bit more ability to ride it fast when wet, right? You can still ride in the rain at 4 minutes a lap, but to do it at half that pace takes a higher level of ability...The fact remains that even if the tires did cool, inputs are important. He rolled off or trailed too much brake. It really is that simple... Less roll off or less trail (Getting more done up and down vs. full lean, etc.) would have resulted in not falling down. He loaded the front. It's basic Physics.As for me running AMA, yes... Wasn't any good.Yep, I bet he takes away some valuable lessons. It's really interesting to watch the fast guys go around the track at a pace that the rest of us would crash in every corner at. And they can do it because their ability to be smooth and exersize those techiniques is so far above ours.At barber the National Guard rider was there on Saturday and he was amazing to watch against the other riders. He apparently turned a 128.6 for his fast lap of the day. Just night and day watching him go through a corner vs. the other guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vw151 Posted October 30, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 30, 2009 Got another video uploaded. It's me running in intermediate. Sorry if your Gixxer isn't going as fast as it used to Brandon, I was just glad to get out and finally drag some knee and get my confidence up after my shoulder injury earlier this year. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gx8lbb9HCjo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yotaman88210 Posted October 30, 2009 Report Share Posted October 30, 2009 DAMN IT!! I want to go to Barber. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moto-Brian Posted October 30, 2009 Report Share Posted October 30, 2009 i like learning all conditions. I will ride in cold,wet,dry,storming,ice everytime because u can learn allot doing so. We all make mistakes and this rider was lucky enough to catch it on tape to review and learn from. We ALL are still learning and learning will never stop. Even Rossi leearns still.The thing is that you can actually hurt yourself more than help yourself in certain conditions. Meaning, if you have a bike w/o studded tires and ride on a frozen pond, you aren't really learning anything. Whereas, if you have a bike WITH studded tires, you will learn more as the bike is adapted to the conditions.What I am saying in our sport is if you are tooling around at a really slow pace and working more at staying upright, you are learning to survive - not anything that will apply to when the conditions are better. If you are sliding around at points and just simply trying to stay upright, those inputs are far from what you'd use in normal riding.However, if at say Barber you race no matter what the conditions, riding in the rain will help in both wet and dry conditions. Rain riding allows you to learn things that the bike does for sure, but actually teaches the art of being smooth vs. just plain old surviving...Probably making this sound confusing... I re-read it and feel it isn't typed as I am thinking.Oh, and Yota - yes. You need to ride Barber... I was going to go, but it is always booked at the end of the year and the first event. I am thinking about a mid-season trip or even a possible race there next year. Plan now - you can ride share if you'd like... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yotaman88210 Posted October 30, 2009 Report Share Posted October 30, 2009 Plan now - you can ride share if you'd like...Coool man. Appreciate the offer. I will fo sho be riding there next year. Im pretty sure Mike, Joe, and Steven will want to go back as well. We should all plan a day! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gixxie750 Posted October 30, 2009 Report Share Posted October 30, 2009 I raced in the rain at barber and got 4th in the solo 20. I learn to survive and slide. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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