oldschoolsdime92 Posted November 4, 2009 Report Share Posted November 4, 2009 i still stand by my thoughts that if you are in full control of your motorcycle and paying full attention to your surroundings,riding within the legal speed limit,blah blah you should never "have" to lay a motorcycle down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AOW Posted November 4, 2009 Report Share Posted November 4, 2009 NOTHING stops faster than a controlled no skid brake.NOTHING, not locked tires, not ABS, not dumping the bike.</thread>isn't the purpose of ABS to ensure a controlled no skid stop/brake? Your logic is flawed on TOO many levels to get into.I came around a sweeping left blind turn at night and was treated to herd of 7 or so deer slowly crossing the road at about 45mph (speed limit was 50). I heard the dear before my headlights lit them up. At the time I had two choices, stand the bike up straight and make an emergency stop and pray I stop before going over and down the 20' drop, or just brake hard and lay the bike down on left side. I chose to brake hard (no tire skid) and lay the bike down. The deer ran off, I took a leak, picked up the bike, and rode home.Yeah, sometimes laying the bike down is the better of the options presented to you. Ride a few more years in weather other than perfect 90 degrees & sunny, and you may learn that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Likwid Posted November 4, 2009 Report Share Posted November 4, 2009 isn't the purpose of ABS to ensure a controlled no skid stop/brake? Your logic is flawed on TOO many levels to get into.I came around a sweeping left blind turn at night and was treated to herd of 7 or so deer slowly crossing the road at about 45mph (speed limit was 50). I heard the dear before my headlights lit them up. At the time I had two choices, stand the bike up straight and make an emergency stop and pray I stop before going over and down the 20' drop, or just brake hard and lay the bike down on left side. I chose to brake hard (no tire skid) and lay the bike down. The deer ran off, I took a leak, picked up the bike, and rode home.Yeah, sometimes laying the bike down is the better of the options presented to you. Ride a few more years in weather other than perfect 90 degrees & sunny, and you may learn that.First of all, no. ABS is to STOP a skid, not prevent it. ABS spins the tire slightly, if you apply the same constant pressure WITHOUT engaging ABS you stop sooner, that's a fact.Second, you didn't CHOOSE to lay the bike down, if you had enough control to CHOOSE to lay the bike down you would have stopped. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magley64 Posted November 4, 2009 Report Share Posted November 4, 2009 First of all, no. ABS is to STOP a skid, not prevent it. ABS spins the tire slightly, if you apply the same constant pressure WITHOUT engaging ABS you stop sooner, that's a fact.actually ABS works to relese the brakes at the point of a tire lock up. It essentially goes from locked to unlocked multiple times per second, which alternates static friction from the brakes to the tires, and back again. and since static friction is stronger than kinetic friction you will stop sooner with abs than you ever could without it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RFM Posted November 4, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 4, 2009 I wonder if ABS side fairings, handlebar weights, and crash bungs would work? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Likwid Posted November 4, 2009 Report Share Posted November 4, 2009 actually ABS works to relese the brakes at the point of a tire lock up. It essentially goes from locked to unlocked multiple times per second, which alternates static friction from the brakes to the tires, and back again. and since static friction is stronger than kinetic friction you will stop sooner with abs than you ever could without it...It doesn't spin the tire backwards, you guys are really missing the point here. If you allow the tire to spin for 1 millisecond that's 1 millisecond you COULD have been NOT skidding Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magley64 Posted November 4, 2009 Report Share Posted November 4, 2009 It doesn't spin the tire backwards, you guys are really missing the point here. If you allow the tire to spin for 1 millisecond that's 1 millisecond you COULD have been NOT skiddingI understand it's counter-intuitive, but it's true, going fron static friction to kinetic friction and back again many times per second will provide more stopping force than pure kinetic friction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magley64 Posted November 4, 2009 Report Share Posted November 4, 2009 Most people think that it is supposed to allow your vehicle to get as close as possible to a skid without actually doing a skid - that's all. As it turns out, that is not at all what an ABS system does.A very well trained biker can do what is called 'Threshold braking'. Again, assuming a roadway with a Static CoF of about 1.0, that means that this exceptionally skillful vehicle operator is able, without ABS, to achieve a deceleration rate somewhere between 0.8g's and 1.0g's WITHOUT LOCKING UP HIS BRAKES.Once he locks up a brake the bike begins to skid and will continue skidding because his deceleration rate is higher than the Dynamic CoF - at lest until he loses some of that deceleration rate.ABS is designed to do EXACTLY the same thing from a deceleration rate point of view, BUT it does this in a different way than does a human operator. The ABS reacts to a skid! That is, as soon as a tire is no longer spinning at the same speed as the bike is moving (difference between the rotational speed of both tires), or there is a noticeable (to the computer) abrupt spike in measured rotation of an individual wheel indicating a discontinuity, it RELEASES brake pressure to stop the skid, then it immediately reapplies that brake pressure - and it does it many times within a single second.What that means is that an ABS braked bike ACTUALLY SKIDS to a panic stop. It should, therefore, have a deceleration rate during that stop somewhere BETWEEN that of the Dynamic and Static CoF (0.8g's to 1.0g's). The slower reacting the ABS system is (number of pulses it can generate in any one second), the lower will be the average deceleration rate achieved.Older generation ABS systems could attain deceleration rates only slightly higher than the Dynamic Cof and left a DARKER skid mark as a result while newer generation ABS systems attain an average deceleration rate pretty close to the Static CoF and leave a lighter skid mark as a result. Expert threshold braking humans leave a very light skid mark when they brake. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Likwid Posted November 4, 2009 Report Share Posted November 4, 2009 Maybe I'm working off old technology then... but I'm also using real world test on ice... so it could be weather or could be old technology. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S-13 Posted November 5, 2009 Report Share Posted November 5, 2009 NOTHING stops faster than a controlled no skid brake.NOTHING, not locked tires, not ABS, not dumping the bike.</thread>The side of a semi stopped me and my bike quicker than any controlled no skid brake lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Likwid Posted November 5, 2009 Report Share Posted November 5, 2009 The side of a semi stopped me and my bike quicker than any controlled no skid brake lol....I stand corrected...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
everoblivion2005 Posted November 6, 2009 Report Share Posted November 6, 2009 The side of a semi stopped me and my bike quicker than any controlled no skid brake lol. ouch! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cdubyah Posted November 6, 2009 Report Share Posted November 6, 2009 The side of a semi stopped me and my bike quicker than any controlled no skid brake lol.So how'd that work out for ya? I see that you are still with us today... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S-13 Posted November 9, 2009 Report Share Posted November 9, 2009 I actually only broke my foot. I was off work for four months because of it though. As soon as I went back I got sent to Arizona and am now looking for a new bike. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cdubyah Posted November 9, 2009 Report Share Posted November 9, 2009 Well at least you are still here today to talk about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
schumacher Posted November 9, 2009 Report Share Posted November 9, 2009 I've seen riders of all styles and makes discuss this in various forums. I've never done it, and never will. I'm not giving up control of the bike until it is indeed too late Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RFM Posted November 9, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 9, 2009 I've seen riders of all styles and makes discuss this in various forums. I've never done it, and never will. I'm not giving up control of the bike until it is indeed too lateThe definitive word. Cheers! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReconRat Posted November 10, 2009 Report Share Posted November 10, 2009 Didn't we talk brakes before? There's no substitute for using maximum brakes, at the earliest moment. Both front and rear, disk or drum. Doesn't matter if it's in a corner or wet or gravel or whatever. Yes, you'll have to use the brakes in a way that doesn't cause a low-side or high-side. No, using brakes will not cause a low-side or high-side. It's loss of control of the bike that does that.I can say that because that's what I've learned. Sometimes it's not easy, but you won't fall down if it's done in a controlled fashion. And that's the key. Controlled use of brakes is hard to learn when the time comes to use it for real. Most of my falls happened extremely fast, but I still fought it right down to the pavement. (Hitting ice comes to mind.) And often I got out of it, even if I bounced the side of the bike on the pavement. But I'm not going to recommend anyone go out and practice. You will fall down. I think that's what dirt bikes are for.I would really like to try out a bike with ABS brakes. I'm thinking that's very cool. I don't think any of us could out-brake the ABS brakes. Not going to happen.Side note: I remember watching Japanese police bikes dump on their sides at 60 mph, on purpose for training, and bring it back up on it's wheels at 45mph. They had to learn how to do that. They were very very good. It's all in the control. (Didn't hurt that they were Hondas...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReconRat Posted November 10, 2009 Report Share Posted November 10, 2009 I once laid a CL350 on it's side, sliding sideways, both brakes on, to avoid rear ending a jerk in a car, that made a lane change and didn't see me. I did it on purpose. I violently maneuvered the bike upright and over one lane to the left, doing the same thing in that lane, sliding sideways with brakes on, on it's other side, past the car. Wouldn't have happened if I'd been pointing the wrong way in the first slide. It was controlled, but out of control. I had to fight it hard to stabilize back into a straight line down the road. It kept trying to flop around and slide again. And stopped immediately up on the sidewalk. A ton of adrenaline was about to stop my heart.When I let off the brakes in the first slide, it would have jumped up and high sided, I suppose. But I aimed and pushed over onto the other side in the other lane. Using the brakes there, kept me from hitting the pavement. And this was in traffic, three cars around me. I went between them. Everything was fractions of a second. I won't be doing it again. I doubt my reaction times are anywhere good enough now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buildit Posted November 10, 2009 Report Share Posted November 10, 2009 Every situation is different and requires on the fly judgement and action. I've been in three near misses and all of them required a different responce to avoid collision. A school of thought is that there is no accident a motorcycle can't avoid given the following.1. control of the bike2. awareness of your suroundings on all sides at all times3. proper speed 4. proper breaking5. proper maintance / setup of the bike to allow for peak performance and handelingIn the end though the best you can do is always be prepared for the worst and remember the minuite you let your guard down the unthinkable can occure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radio Flyer Posted November 10, 2009 Report Share Posted November 10, 2009 I asked some kid the other day if he'd ever been down and he said, "Once, but I had to." Some story about it was either going down or running into this thing or the next thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AOW Posted November 10, 2009 Report Share Posted November 10, 2009 (edited) Second, you didn't CHOOSE to lay the bike down, if you had enough control to CHOOSE to lay the bike down you would have stopped.OK asshat... Yes I did CHOOSE to lay the bike down after scrubbing as much speed as I could. Given the distance to the deer and my now adjusted speed I decided it was in my best interest to lean as hard left as quickly as possible and let the bike go. I decided to lay the bike down, I did NOT lose control. Edited November 10, 2009 by AOW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buildit Posted November 10, 2009 Report Share Posted November 10, 2009 OK asshat... Yes I did CHOOSE to lay the bike down after scrubbing as much speed as I could. Given the distance to the deer and my now adjusted speed I decided it was in my best interest to lean as hard left as quickly as possible and let the bike go. I decided to lay the bike down, I did NOT lose control. No one has any right to criticize how another handles an emergency situation. After all it's not their ass on the seat and not their body that will bare the results of a miscalculation. If you walked away / survived you did the right thing. Hopefully you'll avoid the same circumstances next time and not have to face that situation again.As there have been a number of accidents recently on this forum and others I visit I'd ask everyone to avoid impairing your driving by being tired or drinking, wear the gear, stay alert and always try to be prepared for the unexpected. Every once in a while it's not a bad idea to find a parking lot or open piece of road and practice crash avoidance techniques. Things like emergency breaking, swerve drills, learning to ride a skid out if necessary (mostly for wet of slick pavement) can greatly increase the reaction time.Let's all make it to next year so we can continue to enjoy the riding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AOW Posted November 10, 2009 Report Share Posted November 10, 2009 P.S. an emergency stop with cold tires ends up being more of an emergency slow down. Keep that in mind while you're out there riding during the cooler days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
everoblivion2005 Posted November 10, 2009 Report Share Posted November 10, 2009 Every situation is different and requires on the fly judgement and action. I've been in three near misses and all of them required a different responce to avoid collision. A school of thought is that there is no accident a motorcycle can't avoid given the following.1. control of the bike2. awareness of your suroundings on all sides at all times3. proper speed 4. proper breaking5. proper maintance / setup of the bike to allow for peak performance and handelingIn the end though the best you can do is always be prepared for the worst and remember the minuite you let your guard down the unthinkable can occure. remember those rules especially when the meteor strikes while your riding or when ninjas attack from the pathfinder next to you...... your rules clearly dont apply to EVERY accident..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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