fusion Posted January 6, 2010 Report Share Posted January 6, 2010 I was being facetious. However' date=' I don't believe this is a solution and I don't support "throwing money at it" as an alternative. I like to find what the fuck is going wrong and focus on that. Just because this [i']may be cheaper doesn't mean it's the correct course of action.Sorry hadn't had my caffeine yet. I don't know I have mixed feelings. Usually educating someone is the first step. If you can at least get 'clean use' into their heads than i think treating the root problem (heroine use) probably becomes easier without the distractions. You also limit the risk of transfer of nasty stuff to non-users they may be involved with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chevysoldier Posted January 6, 2010 Report Share Posted January 6, 2010 You're right using a clean needle is no where near safer than using one previously used by someone with HIV.Sorry but if they are dumb enough to shoot up in the first place, I really don't care if they are dumb enough to get HIV off a used needle. How about something to this effect: If you don't shoot up with a used needle you have a 100% chance of not getting HIV by transmission of said needle. Also see: If you practice abstinence you have a 100% chance of not getting/getting a girl pregnant.Sorry hadn't had my caffeine yet. I don't know I have mixed feelings. Usually educating someone is the first step. If you can at least get 'clean use' into their heads than i think treating the root problem (heroine use) probably becomes easier without the distractions. You also limit the risk of transfer of nasty stuff to non-users they may be involved with.Distractions of what? Getting HIV from a used needle? If you imlant the idea of "safely" shooting up, when you tell them they need to get clean, they will say "Why? I'm being safe in how I shoot up." It will come to the point that they will think what they are doing is safe and okay by societies standards, which by the article is okay by our standards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoolWhip Posted January 6, 2010 Report Share Posted January 6, 2010 ^^^^+1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fusion Posted January 6, 2010 Report Share Posted January 6, 2010 Sorry but if they are dumb enough to shoot up in the first place, I really don't care if they are dumb enough to get HIV off a used needle. How about something to this effect: If you don't shoot up with a used needle you have a 100% chance of not getting HIV by transmission of said needle. Also see: If you practice abstinence you have a 100% chance of not getting/getting a girl pregnant.Distractions of what? Getting HIV from a used needle? If you imlant the idea of "safely" shooting up, when you tell them they need to get clean, they will say "Why? I'm being safe in how I shoot up." It will come to the point that they will think what they are doing is safe and okay by societies standards, which by the article is okay by our standards. I think you missed the point on both accounts.People do all sorts of stupid stuff, it's the reason abstinence only education doesn't work. The point is in saying if you are going to at least do or don't do this, this or that.Distraction of having to treat additional issues such as AIDS, infections, and whatever nastiness. Also, helping reduce the risk of passing said nasties to others. Needles users can look just like everyone else.There is a reason a slippery slope argument is considered a logical fallacy btw. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chevysoldier Posted January 6, 2010 Report Share Posted January 6, 2010 I think you missed the point on both accounts.People do all sorts of stupid stuff, it's the reason abstinence only education doesn't work. The point is in saying if you are going to at least do or don't do this, this or that.Distraction of having to treat additional issues such as AIDS, infections, and whatever nastiness. Also, helping reduce the risk of passing said nasties to others. Needles users can look just like everyone else.There is a reason a slippery slope argument is considered a logical fallacy btw.Okay, let me say this then. By publishing this, you are condoning illegal activity. We might as well help out drug lord, robbers, rapist, child molesters, murderers, DVD & music pirating. where's it stop? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jporter12 Posted January 6, 2010 Report Share Posted January 6, 2010 Okay, let me say this then. By publishing this, you are condoning illegal activity. We might as well help out drug lord, robbers, rapist, child molesters, murderers, DVD & music pirating. where's it stop?It seems to stop at the DVD, movie, and software piracy, since they seem to be able to go after those people easier.... Just sayin'... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fusion Posted January 6, 2010 Report Share Posted January 6, 2010 Okay, let me say this then. By publishing this, you are condoning illegal activity. We might as well help out drug lord, robbers, rapist, child molesters, murderers, DVD & music pirating. where's it stop?That's a bit of a leap. It's still illegal and I'm guessing there is more to the pamphlets, I'm too lazy to look at the moment. I will say they are a bit to simple or cartoonish in their delivery. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chevysoldier Posted January 6, 2010 Report Share Posted January 6, 2010 That's a bit of a leap. It's still illegal and I'm guessing there is more to the pamphlets, I'm too lazy to look at the moment. I will say they are a bit to simple or cartoonish in their delivery. Which part is the leap. The fact they are condoning illegal activty, or extending the generosity to other criminals? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fusion Posted January 6, 2010 Report Share Posted January 6, 2010 I don't think they are condoning it. I don't read it that way. You only see a single page out of ~10 in that article. If someone is going to use they are going to use and they certainly don't need a pamphlet to learn how to do it. They are going to learn/start from a dealer or other user. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chevysoldier Posted January 6, 2010 Report Share Posted January 6, 2010 I don't think they are condoning it. I don't read it that way. You only see a single page out of ~10 in that article. If someone is going to use they are going to use and they certainly don't need a pamphlet to learn how to do it. They are going to learn/start from a dealer or other user. So if a previous page stated "It is illegal but just in case you didn't know how to..." then it would be ok? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fusion Posted January 6, 2010 Report Share Posted January 6, 2010 So if a previous page stated "It is illegal but just in case you didn't know how to..." then it would be ok?It's not a how to from scratch guide. It's a please do it safer guide in an attempt to lessen issues they commonly see with heroine users. The guide also encourages seeking help to quit, but I guess we can continue to concentrate on this one page.That's like reading one page from a self defense shooting manual that depicts the best placement for shots and claiming it encourages shooting or killing people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chevysoldier Posted January 6, 2010 Report Share Posted January 6, 2010 It's not a how to from scratch guide. It's a please do it safer guide in an attempt to lessen issues they commonly see with heroine users. The guide also encourages seeking help to quit, but I guess we can continue to concentrate on this one page.That's like reading one page from a self defense shooting manual that depicts the best placement for shots and claiming it encourages shooting or killing people. Self defense isn't illegal . If shooting heroin was legal, I wouldn't care about the pamphlet. But to spend our money on something that tells how to safely do something illegal is not right. What if you printed a pamphlet on rape. Sure it's illegal and it states that, but then continues to talk about how to make it less traumatic and hurtful for the person being raped, would that be right? And be sure to use a condom so you don't catch HIV or get her pregant...? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fusion Posted January 6, 2010 Report Share Posted January 6, 2010 Self defense isn't illegal . If shooting heroin was legal, I wouldn't care about the pamphlet. But to spend our money on something that tells how to safely do something illegal is not right. What if you printed a pamphlet on rape. Sure it's illegal and it states that, but then continues to talk about how to make it less traumatic and hurtful for the person being raped, would that be right? And be sure to use a condom so you don't catch HIV or get her pregant...?The point was merely taking a single page out of context of the whole pamphlet.Sex is legal and there are already pamphlets on safer sex. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chevysoldier Posted January 6, 2010 Report Share Posted January 6, 2010 The point was merely taking a single page out of context of the whole pamphlet.Sex is legal and there are already pamphlets on safer sex. Yes, sex whithin certain guidlines is legal, rape is not. So you agree with my last post then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jporter12 Posted January 6, 2010 Report Share Posted January 6, 2010 Yes, sex whithin certain guidlines is legal, rape is not. So you agree with my last post then?Nobody agrees with you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fusion Posted January 6, 2010 Report Share Posted January 6, 2010 Yes, sex whithin certain guidlines is legal, rape is not. So you agree with my last post then?No. Like I said it's ~1 page out of 10, it's about context. They have a large problem with heroine related illnesses/death and are trying to alleviate that. I don't care for the delivery of that page but in context it's not that bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jporter12 Posted January 6, 2010 Report Share Posted January 6, 2010 No. Like I said it's ~1 page out of 10, it's about context. They have a large problem with heroine related illnesses/death and are trying to alleviate that. I don't care for the delivery of that page but in context it's not that bad.What part of Heroin being illegal is not understood? IF THE HEROIN WASN'T BEING DONE, THE RELATED ILLNESSES WOULDN'T BE HAPPENING!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fusion Posted January 6, 2010 Report Share Posted January 6, 2010 What part of Heroin being illegal is not understood? IF THE HEROIN WASN'T BEING DONE, THE RELATED ILLNESSES WOULDN'T BE HAPPENING!!!!You can make that claim about anything. Love the caps though, nice touch.If you didn't do such and such in the first place then such and such wouldn't be needed/happening..legal or illegal. Glad you live in a black and white world where most don't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jporter12 Posted January 6, 2010 Report Share Posted January 6, 2010 You can make that claim about anything. Love the caps though, nice touch.If you didn't do such and such in the first place then such and such wouldn't be needed/happening..legal or illegal. Glad you live in a black and white world where most don't.I'm just saying that as long as they're doing something illegal, and not getting any help for the root problem of heroin addiction, let 'em do it wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fusion Posted January 6, 2010 Report Share Posted January 6, 2010 I'm just saying that as long as they're doing something illegal, and not getting any help for the root problem of heroin addiction, let 'em do it wrong.and once again you also miss the point. The whole point of the pamphlet is stopping and to seek help. This page is added to help lessen other health risks that can compound issues while these people are to be seeking help. You realize are only looking at a single page of many right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jporter12 Posted January 6, 2010 Report Share Posted January 6, 2010 and once again you also miss the point. The whole point of the pamphlet is stopping and to seek help. This page is added to help lessen other health risks that can compound issues while these people are to be seeking help. You realize are only looking at a single page of many right?Yes I get that this is just a small part of it. I just don't think it should've been a part of it. If the purpose is to get them to stop, don't tell them how to do it right, as that's almost like de-criminalizing it. So, do you tell the kids, I know this is wrong, and you will get in trouble for it from me, but here's how to do it, since you're already doing it? Then don't do it after I show you the right way to do it. I'm pretty sure that from ME, it's going to be more like, don't do that, and if I catch you doing it again, there will be serious punishment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fusion Posted January 6, 2010 Report Share Posted January 6, 2010 Yes I get that this is just a small part of it. I just don't think it should've been a part of it. If the purpose is to get them to stop, don't tell them how to do it right, as that's almost like de-criminalizing it. So, do you tell the kids, I know this is wrong, and you will get in trouble for it from me, but here's how to do it, since you're already doing it? Then don't do it after I show you the right way to do it. I'm pretty sure that from ME, it's going to be more like, don't do that, and if I catch you doing it again, there will be serious punishment.Once again the point is missed. It's not let me show you how to do it right, it's let me show you how to do this more safely so you don't die (or worse) before being able to quit. The whole context is seeking help, not making things worse and eventually quiting. It's not a since you're already doing it thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jporter12 Posted January 6, 2010 Report Share Posted January 6, 2010 Once again the point is missed. It's not let me show you how to do it right, it's let me show you how to do this more safely so you don't die (or worse) before being able to quit. The whole context is seeking help, not making things worse and eventually quiting. It's not a since you're already doing it thing.I get your point, but it IS a "since you're already doing it, do it right" thing. I don't see how it can't be! I get that the whole premise is to encourage quitting, and this is to help try to reduce some of the difficulties that go along with the use, while seeking help quitting. I don't see WHY it should even be in the same pamphlet! Again, I get the idea, but I think it needs to stick to the ROOT PROBLEM of heroin use, not reduce the "sideline" problems that go with it. Do you get what I'm saying? I'm not asking you to agree, I just feel as though the same thing keeps being said because we don't think the other understands what is being said! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fusion Posted January 6, 2010 Report Share Posted January 6, 2010 I get your point, but it IS a "since you're already doing it, do it right" thing. I don't see how it can't be! I get that the whole premise is to encourage quitting, and this is to help try to reduce some of the difficulties that go along with the use, while seeking help quitting. I don't see WHY it should even be in the same pamphlet! Again, I get the idea, but I think it needs to stick to the ROOT PROBLEM of heroin use, not reduce the "sideline" problems that go with it. Do you get what I'm saying? I'm not asking you to agree, I just feel as though the same thing keeps being said because we don't think the other understands what is being said!Because the other issues can hinder quiting...or worse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jporter12 Posted January 6, 2010 Report Share Posted January 6, 2010 (edited) Because the other issues can hinder quiting...or worse.Death=quitting. Problem solved. Sorry, but if someone does something as dangerous as heroin and dies from it, I have no sympathy for the person. For the family and friends that are left behind I absolutely sympathize with. Edited January 6, 2010 by jporter12 typo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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