Heroin for Dummies

[jporter12]

I guess I fail to be compassionate, when I know I should be, even if it is for someone doing something wrong.

[fusion]

Death=quitting. Problem solved. Sorry, but if someone does something as dangerous as heroin and dies from it, I have no sympathy for the person. For the family and friends that are left behind I absolutely sympathize with.

Once again it's not black and white. Use can can become worse leading down even worse paths especially if there are additional issues to deal with. Poor use can create these additional problems whether they be mental or physical. That one page is meant to help alleviate that so that seeking help and/or quiting is more likely.

Also, heroine addicts aren't a closed system, they affect themselves and those around them. You might not even be able to tell if someone is one just by looking at them. They could be cooking your food, teaching our children, cleaning your teeth, having sex with you... Unless of course you watch too much TV and think they just crash out in drug houses and in hallways of run down apartment buildings...

[jporter12]

Once again it's not black and white. Use can can become worse leading down even worse paths especially if there are additional issues to deal with. Poor use can create these additional problems whether they be mental or physical. That one page is meant to help alleviate that so that seeking help and/or quiting is more likely.

Also, heroine addicts aren't a closed system, they affect themselves and those around them. You might not even be able to tell if someone is one just by looking at them. They could be cooking your food, teaching our children, cleaning your teeth, having sex with you... Unless of course you watch too much TV and think they just crash out in drug houses and in hallways of run down apartment buildings...

I may be wrong, but the ones that AREN'T crashing out in drug houses, and hallways of run-down apartments are the ones that know how to do it right, and have it under control (as much as a drug such as heroin can be controlled) and can shoot up properly, therefore making this page of information only applicable to the ones that are the least likely to see it.

I dunno, I guess the worst ones in the bigger picture are the ones that get others hooked on it. From what I've been told by a family member of an addict, the high only comes the first time or so that they do it. From then on out the use is to attempt to get back to a "normal" state, and away from the severe withdraw symptoms. For someone to get someone into something they know is so bad is out of my understanding. I don't have it in me to drag others down to my level if they're doing better. I'd rather have them pull me up to help me get to a better level.

[fusion]

I may be wrong, but the ones that AREN'T crashing out in drug houses, and hallways of run-down apartments are the ones that know how to do it right, and have it under control (as much as a drug such as heroin can be controlled) and can shoot up properly, therefore making this page of information only applicable to the ones that are the least likely to see it.

I dunno, I guess the worst ones in the bigger picture are the ones that get others hooked on it. From what I've been told by a family member of an addict, the high only comes the first time or so that they do it. From then on out the use is to attempt to get back to a "normal" state, and away from the severe withdraw symptoms. For someone to get someone into something they know is so bad is out of my understanding. I don't have it in me to drag others down to my level if they're doing better. I'd rather have them pull me up to help me get to a better level.

I'll say this...if they had it under control they wouldn't be using heroine to begin with. Those who use a drug like that are already making bad decisions. Next thing you know you've contracted hepatitis from someone who had it under control, because while shooting up they shared a needle just once.

[jporter12]

I'll say this...if they had it under control they wouldn't be using heroine to begin with. Those who use a drug like that are already making bad decisions. Next thing you know you've contracted hepatitis from someone who had it under control, because while shooting up they shared a needle just once.

THAT is my whole point! Do you think they're going to follow what this thing says anyway? I doubt it.

[fusion]

THAT is my whole point! Do you think they're going to follow what this thing says anyway? I doubt it.

You're right and if none of them will follow what it says, ever, why would they follow anything?

Lets just put them all on an island since none of them will never have any sense of clarity ever that may lead them to getting better. Once they die off we can move on to the next group.

[Likwid]

You're right and if none of them will follow what it says, ever, why would they follow anything?

Lets just put them all on an island since none of them will never have any sense of clarity ever that may lead them to getting better. Once they die off we can move on to the next group.

I seem to recall another continent working like that..... mmmmm?

[fusion]

I seem to recall another continent working like that..... mmmmm?

Oh yeah didn't think of that. The situations are a bit different, but they just may have been onto something. I say we start with the Harley riders as a test group.

[John]

What part of Heroin being illegal is not understood?

What part of "prohibition does not work" is not understood?

[chevysoldier]

No. Like I said it's ~1 page out of 10, it's about context. They have a large problem with heroine related illnesses/death and are trying to alleviate that. I don't care for the delivery of that page but in context it's not that bad.

The ends do not justify the means. Say you find out your kids are shooting up. Are you going to tell them how to do it correctly in order to get them to quit??

You can make that claim about anything. Love the caps though, nice touch.

If you didn't do such and such in the first place then such and such wouldn't be needed/happening..legal or illegal. Glad you live in a black and white world where most don't.

Thats right, if you didn't shoot heroin, you don't have a chance to die from shooting heroin. Regardless, illegal is illegal. People that use it, know this. So why would you want to help them facilitate an illegal and deadly practice? Let's just keep catering to the idiots out there. This is why our country is so screwed up now. I suppose you also agree with kids being able to buy better grades in NC then to? That's not much different in the big picture. Let's not make them learn, that wouldnt be fair to flunk them if they didn't learn.

Because the other issues can hinder quiting...or worse.

Like not knowing how to find a good vein can hinder quitting? Knowing how to find a good vein could lead them to shoot up more and OD? Death?

What part of "prohibition does not work" is not understood?

So let's legalize everything? Pot, murder, rape, DVD pirating?

[fusion]

The ends do not justify the means. Say you find out your kids are shooting up. Are you going to tell them how to do it correctly in order to get them to quit??

Thats right, if you didn't shoot heroin, you don't have a chance to die from shooting heroin. Regardless, illegal is illegal. People that use it, know this. So why would you want to help them facilitate an illegal and deadly practice? Let's just keep catering to the idiots out there. This is why our country is so screwed up now. I suppose you also agree with kids being able to buy better grades in NC then to? That's not much different in the big picture. Let's not make them learn, that wouldnt be fair to flunk them if they didn't learn.

Like not knowing how to find a good vein can hinder quitting? Knowing how to find a good vein could lead them to shoot up more and OD? Death?

So let's legalize everything? Pot, murder, rape, DVD pirating?

Actually sometimes the ends do justify the means. The problem using a term like that is it doesn't always apply. In this case there's a bigger picture which you apparently cant grasp.

[John]

IMO Spending money, that we don't have I might add, to support and aid an illegal and dangerous activity is morally and ethically wrong.

who is we? i dont pay tax in NYC, so it wasn't my money... do you?

is it "morally and ethically" right for the government to tell me what i can and can not put in my body?

IMO this is just like giving out condoms at high school instead of teaching abstinence only. everyone knows abstinence only does not work. we all know drug prohibition doesnt work either. people are going to use whether its legal or not. people have been doing heroin for hundreds of years, and will probably continue to do it for hundreds more.

you are right though, probably not everyone who reads the pamphlet will follow it, but IMO if half of them do, then it wasn't a waste. its a good start.

RE: equating heroin use with rape (why not make a pamphlet for rapists)... come on get real. they are not even in the same ballpark. not even the same leauge. shit, they arent even the same sport! you are comparing apples and chickens here.

i think another point that many are missing, is that drug addiction is NOT a criminal problem. its a medical one. addiction is a disease, and needs to be treated as such.

[jporter12]

i think another point that many are missing, is that drug addiction is NOT a criminal problem. its a medical one. addiction is a disease, and needs to be treated as such.

It becomes a criminal problem when the drugs are illegal.

[John]

The ends do not justify the means. Say you find out your kids are shooting up. Are you going to tell them how to do it correctly in order to get them to quit??

say you find your kid having sex. are you going to tell them about condoms and whatnot, or are you just going to say "dont do that anymore" and hope for the best, or just ignore it and pretend it didnt happen?

So let's legalize everything? Pot, murder, rape, DVD pirating?

nice straw man.

i didnt say legalize everything, i said prohibition doesnt work. it doesnt. that is beyond dispute. it didnt work in the 30's with booze, and it doesnt work today with drugs. if it DID work, we wouldnt even be having this discussion, because no one would use heroin, cocaine, pot or any of the myriad of other substances our government has deemed inappropriate.

i think its silly for pot to be illegal, with as much money as we could make off of taxing it, why not? we tax cigarettes and alcohol, and regulate them too.

should heroin be legal? probably not. although, we do have methadone clinics where you get a regulated dose legally...

like i said before, people are going to use whether legal or not, so it does not seem like a terrible idea to me to try to make sure the people who are going to use are doing it safely.

Edited January 6, 2010 by John

[John]

It becomes a criminal problem when the drugs are illegal.

yes but it does not cease to be a medical problem still. i guess i should have said its MORE a medical problem than a criminal one.

[chevysoldier]

Actually sometimes the ends do justify the means. The problem using a term like that is it doesn't always apply. In this case there's a bigger picture which you apparently cant grasp.

No they don't. I'll ask again, if you found your kids, parents, wife, whatever shooting up, would you try to get them off or teach them how to do it correctly?

who is we? i dont pay tax in NYC, so it wasn't my money... do you?

is it "morally and ethically" right for the government to tell me what i can and can not put in my body?

IMO this is just like giving out condoms at high school instead of teaching abstinence only. everyone knows abstinence only does not work. we all know drug prohibition doesnt work either. people are going to use whether its legal or not. people have been doing heroin for hundreds of years, and will probably continue to do it for hundreds more.

you are right though, probably not everyone who reads the pamphlet will follow it, but IMO if half of them do, then it wasn't a waste. its a good start.

RE: equating heroin use with rape (why not make a pamphlet for rapists)... come on get real. they are not even in the same ballpark. not even the same leauge. shit, they arent even the same sport! you are comparing apples and chickens here.

i think another point that many are missing, is that drug addiction is NOT a criminal problem. its a medical one. addiction is a disease, and needs to be treated as such.

No you and I dont pay NY taxes, but then that mentality spreads to OH and across the US. Think of court case. A v. B in NY was found such and such, so that should apply here in CA.

As for doing for hundreds of years, just because thats the way it has been done doesn't mean it's right. How long was slavery around? Did making it illegal fix the problem or should we have regulated it to collect tax money?

And when your drug addiction can lead to murders and burglary, rape isn't that far off base. Why not tell them to use condoms and to be gentle on breaking the door down? So drug addictions, especially herion is a criminal problem.

say you find your kid having sex. are you going to tell them about condoms and whatnot, or are you just going to say "dont do that anymore" and hope for the best?

nice straw man argument.

i didnt say legalize everything, i said prohibition doesnt work. it doesnt. that is beyond dispute. it didnt work in the 30's with booze, and it doesnt work today with drugs.

i think its silly for pot to be illegal, with as much money as we could make off of taxing it, why not? we tax cigarettes and alcohol, and regulate them too.

should heroin be legal? probably not. although, we do have methadone clinics where you get a regulated dose legally...

like i said before, people are going to use whether legal or not, so it does not seem like a terrible idea to me to try to make sure the people who are going to use are doing it safely.

No I would not hand my kid condoms. Condoms arent 100% protection. Would you teach your kid how to shoot up properly or get them to quit??

You don't just hope for the best. You educate so the problem doesn't arise.

what about Prohibition with slavery? again should we have kept that around and gotten tax money?

[fusion]

No they don't. I'll ask again, if you found your kids, parents, wife, whatever shooting up, would you try to get them off or teach them how to do it correctly?

...and once again I'll tell you it's not about teaching them to do it correctly. Until you understand that you won't understand the role it plays in recovery.

[John]

No I would not hand my kid condoms. Condoms arent 100% protection. Would you teach your kid how to shoot up properly or get them to quit??

You don't just hope for the best. You educate so the problem doesn't arise.

educate them. you mean like abstinence only education?

what about Prohibition with slavery? again should we have kept that around and gotten tax money?

im starting to feel that you are just trolling now.

there is no "prohibition" with slavery. there is a difference between "prohibition" and "abolition".

and secondly, as before, drug use and slavery/rape/murder/burglary whatever are incomparable.

if i shoot myself up with heroin in my living room, i have not hurt anyone except myself.

if i rape/enslave/murder/steal from/torture someone else, i am hurting someone other than myself.

[jporter12]

if i shoot myself up with heroin in my living room, i have not hurt anyone except myself.

So, with that mentality, it's not an issue at all, and NONE of the article should need to apply?

[jporter12]

So, with that mentality, it's not an issue at all, and NONE of the article should need to apply?

I'm just taking a move right out of the media's playbook with that last post....

[chevysoldier]

...and once again I'll tell you it's not about teaching them to do it correctly. Until you understand that you won't understand the role it plays in recovery.

So you would help them do it correctly to help them quit.

[chevysoldier]

educate them. you mean like abstinence only education?

im starting to feel that you are just trolling now.

there is no "prohibition" with slavery. there is a difference between "prohibition" and "abolition".

and secondly, as before, drug use and slavery/rape/murder/burglary whatever are incomparable.

if i shoot myself up with heroin in my living room, i have not hurt anyone except myself.

if i rape/enslave/murder/steal from/torture someone else, i am hurting someone other than myself.

So there aren't drug addict that murder and steal so they can continue to shoot up? I hope you also live alone and have no family.

But you also said, thats how it's always been done. How many things have always been done that we have figured out weren't right? Slavery was done for how long? We figured out it was wrong and got rid of it.

Damn right I'll teach my kid abstinance. Why should she run the risk of getting pregant or getting HIV? If you teach them before hand, and I mean you as a parent, not school, then the problem should not arise. If I teach her the problems about heroin, she won't use it. And maybe she won't learn and will make the mistakes. But I sure am not going to show here how to find a vein to teach her how to quit.

So let me get this straight.

Page 1. Don't shoot heroin. It is deadly and illegal.

Page 2. But if you are going to anyways, heres how to do it properly. You might as well be safe doing a deadly drug.

Ends never justify means. To be wrong in the first place does not make you right in the second.

[fusion]

So you would help them do it correctly to help them quit.

You just don't get it, maybe it's beyond you.

[John]

So there aren't drug addict that murder and steal so they can continue to shoot up? I hope you also live alone and have no family.

here's what im saying:

1. the use of a drug, in and of itself, is a victimless crime.

2. if someone robs someone to get money for a drug, the ROBBING is the crime.

3. now i know you're gonna say "but the drugs made them do it"... if i get drunk and drive home and kill someone, did the alcohol make me do it?

Damn right I'll teach my kid abstinance. Why should she run the risk of getting pregant or getting HIV? If you teach them before hand, and I mean you as a parent, not school, then the problem should not arise.

man, how did you ever escape from mr. roger's neighborhood?

Page 2. But if you are going to anyways, heres how to do it properly. You might as well be safe doing a deadly drug.

i dont think its so much "might as well be safe while doing a deadly drug", but its more "there are medically safer ways to inject".

Ends never justify means.

what if jack bauer tortures someone to get intel about a possible attack?

[chevysoldier]

You just don't get it, maybe it's beyond you.

But thats what you said.

here's what im saying:

1. the use of a drug, in and of itself, is a victimless crime.

2. if someone robs someone to get money for a drug, the ROBBING is the crime.

3. now i know you're gonna say "but the drugs made them do it"... if i get drunk and drive home and kill someone, did the alcohol make me do it?

The use of heroin is a crime, it is illegal. What about a pamphlet that teaches don't drink and drive, it's illegal but if you are going to, here's how to be safe about it. As long as you don't run over someone, it's a victimless crime right? How can u justify teaching someone how to do something that is ILLEGAL? And on top of it, deadly. If you want to teach someone how to safely shoot up, fine make it legal.

i dont think its so much "might as well be safe while doing a deadly drug", but its more "there are medically safer ways to inject".

Yes, the safest way it to not inject. But if you are going to do something illegal, let me show you how to be medically safer so you don't get HIV.

right....